960 180/204 bhp

[T240]

Never thought about this before, but as I was thinking about buying a spare engine for mods, it came up>

What is the physical difference between the two versions of the S90 motor?
As far as I am aware, they share the same capacity, compression ratio, and Motronic 1.8 fuelling.

So is it an ecu thing that reduces the power on one of them?

Cheers,

T

[Clan]

They are all 204 bhp in UK probably some federal emission equipment and different software dropping the power . Our UK V70 2.4 petrol has two power outputs from the same engine 140 bhp or 175 bhp with just software altering the torque characteristics ... surprisingly the 140 is ideal for towing ..

[T240]

They are all 204 bhp in UK probably some federal emission equipment and different software dropping the power . Our UK V70 2.4 petrol has two power outputs from the same engine 140 bhp or 175 bhp with just software altering the torque characteristics ... surprisingly the 140 is ideal for towing ..

Hi Clan,

I understood they introduced the 180 when they dropped the 2.5 as the S90 came in for the UK, and offered the manual trans with the lower output engine.

It's mentioned here: www.volvoclub.org.uk/s90v90.shtml

Sounds like an ecu mod to me. What do you think?

Cheers,

T

p.s. What is a 3 litre white block engine worth? Given whole cars with MOT are going for peanuts, I said about £200/250 for a decent one, is that fair?

[Clan]

I have never come across the B6304B 180 bhp has anyone else ?
there is also a B6304B with 184 bhp and a B6244F with 163 bhp

UK usualy only takes the most powerful versions .

i expect our dismantlers here would want a healthy profit on one of these engines , £500?? they now are fully aware of the value of them .. unlike the days when i went into a scrap yard and came to the desk with a pair of weber 40 DCOE carburettors in my hands , he said " Two carbs mate thats £5 each" :-)

[migrator]

I have always believed that the power difference was that the higher output (204) was from the '3 litre' unit and the lower output (180) was from the '2.5 litre' unit. I have not come across a '3 litre' unit outputting 180.

[NewVolvo]

I have driven the 2.5 180bhp version in Sweden back in the early 90's with a manual transmission.

Nice engine, especially as it was a 6-cyl one! The manual gearbox did not suit the car however. Brisk too.

Not much to say as it was a looong time ago, but I do remember that the engine was near silent, just like the 3.0 litre version.

[BigBas]

Dont think there is any difference power wise in the S90 whether they are manual or auto. I think they are the same engine as the 960, maybe just different ECU for better emission/economy. Doubt they did anything to the engine itself to dock the power

Bas

[Daim]

The difference consists of different camshafts (different lifter profile) and a different engine management system.

It produces (iirc) more torque than the 204 hp 3.0 at a different rev-area.

As the 204 hp engine has a too higher end power output, the M90 gearbox (fitted to the 2.5l with 170 hp and the 3.0l with 180 hp) couldn't cope with the power... Reduce hp, add a bit of torque and it works... :)

[space]

p.s. What is a 3 litre white block engine worth? Given whole cars with MOT are going for peanuts, I said about £200/250 for a decent one, is that fair?

Ive seen a few engines (complete with everthing) going on Ebay for around that price.

[TheJoyOfSix]

The 180 bhp 3.0 engine was first unveiled in 1993 for the US market in response to a lack of low down torque from the 204bhp version. The Uk still only had the higher power version available up until 1995MY when a 2.5 version was launched with 170bhp. The 3.0 204's were only ever available with auto gearboxes, whereas the 2.5's could be had with the M90 manual 'box. For the Uk market Volvo decided to drop the 2.5 litre engine for the change from the 960 to the S/V90 and offer the 'US spec' 180bhp version of the 3.0 instead, also available with auto or manual gearboxes.

The only difference between a 180 and a 204 are the camshafts. There are ECU differences between auto and manual cars (the engine limits torque momentarily during a gearshift to make a smoother change with an auto), but that's it. An auto 180 has the same ECU as a 204 (204's all being auto as mentioned above).

[T240]

I have never come across the B6304B 180 bhp has anyone else ?
there is also a B6304B with 184 bhp and a B6244F with 163 bhp

UK usualy only takes the most powerful versions .

i expect our dismantlers here would want a healthy profit on one of these engines , £500?? they now are fully aware of the value of them .. unlike the days when i went into a scrap yard and came to the desk with a pair of weber 40 DCOE carburettors in my hands , he said " Two carbs mate thats £5 each" :-)

I have seen them advertised as 180 bhp 3 litre, but whether they are?

£500 for an engine, crikey, they're selling whole cars with MOT for less than that!!

As pay £500 for an engine that may go poof the next day, I'd as soon order a new one from Volvo - expensive, but at least you know it's provenance, and it's likely to outlast the car treated correctly.

Cheers,

T

[Clan]

I have seen them advertised as 180 bhp 3 litre, but whether they are?

£500 for an engine, crikey, they're selling whole cars with MOT for less than that!!

As pay £500 for an engine that may go poof the next day, I'd as soon order a new one from Volvo - expensive, but at least you know it's provenance, and it's likely to outlast the car treated correctly.
Cheers,

T

no it wont go poof the next day unless the car was scrapped with a damaged engine ! Volvo engines will easily outlast the car .. With the cost of a new one around £3500 the risk of a good used one is almost a certainty of being the way to go ..

[T240]

no it wont go poof the next day unless the car was scrapped with a damaged engine ! Volvo engines will easily outlast the car .. With the cost of a new one around £3500 the risk of a good used one is almost a certainty of being the way to go ..

Maybe, yes. But the 3litre whiteblock has a terrible reputation - particularly Stateside, where very many have cracked their blocks without any warning whatsoever.

£500 though, like the other guy said, some with verified low mileage and history have gone thru ebay for half that.
Good S90s are going with a years MOT for £700 to 800 quite regulalry, 960s for half that.
I've even seen good low Mileage T5 motors for no more than £300.

I would have thought £300 absolute tops

[Clan]

I havent seen any prices of used ones , just thought £500 reasonable for a nice
B6304FS in normal condition .. so there ARE bargains to be had :-)

[yoda960]

I sold one with low miles and headgasket just done for £170 only 3months ago on here. Even at that price it didn't sell very quickly so they aren't worth much at all.

[migrator]

They are worth as much as the market will stand at any given time. If nobody wants one then they are worth scrap value. If a number of people are looking for one at the same time then the price will go up ...

[NewVolvo]

OT question......an interesting idea....

Would an S90/960 3.0 litre 204bhp engine fit my 780???

The gearbox on the 780 is the usual AW71 4-speeder auto if anyone wonders.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,
OT question......an interesting idea....

Would an S90/960 3.0 litre 204bhp engine fit my 780???

The gearbox on the 780 is the usual AW71 4-speeder auto if anyone wonders.
Probably, but you would be better transplanting both engine and gearbox with the associated wiring looms and ECU's..

But then, would you want to?

Des. . . ;)

[Daim]

OT question......an interesting idea....

Would an S90/960 3.0 litre 204bhp engine fit my 780???

The gearbox on the 780 is the usual AW71 4-speeder auto if anyone wonders.

It would - but it might be very tight. Afaik the 780 with V6 has the engine mounted lower so it might get very tight, as the B6304 is a little "high building".

At the same time, you'll need to fit the AW30-43LE automatic (or if you take a 180 hp an M90 box) - if you take the auto, then you'll need the cables/wiring and at the same time, the ECU for it...

A conversion is possible, but expect a lot of work needed to get it in...

[rogerthechorister]

I don't believe you can break an M90 with only 180 bhp. They are normally reckoned to be good for about 500 bhp on the hairy redblocks.

The B230ETs were putting 182 bhp through M46s and M47s and everyone and their dog knows that the M90s are lots tougher than the M46 and M47.

The B280Es were also putting 170 bhp through M46s and M47s (although the only B280E I ever drove felt more like 120 bhp)

[Daim]

I don't believe you can break an M90 with only 180 bhp. They are normally reckoned to be good for about 500 bhp on the hairy redblocks.

The B230ETs were putting 182 bhp through M46s and M47s and everyone and their dog knows that the M90s are lots tougher than the M46 and M47.

The B280Es were also putting 170 bhp through M46s and M47s (although the only B280E I ever drove felt more like 120 bhp)

No, the B230ETs and B280Es never had the M47. Only - if manual - the M46. The M47 struggles to cope with the power from a simple B230F or even B200F. Everything with more than approx. 190 nm had the M46...

The M90 is a good box. It is used in the 850 (just FWD -> M56) and can withstand a lot of torque and power... A friend of mine though with a 2.5l 964 has killed two M90s... The car only has I think 180k km on the odometer...

[NewVolvo]

Hi,

Probably, but you would be better transplanting both engine and gearbox with the associated wiring looms and ECU's..

But then, would you want to?

Des. . . ;)

No chance! It was just a crazy idea that came to mind..... :)

It would - but it might be very tight. Afaik the 780 with V6 has the engine mounted lower so it might get very tight, as the B6304 is a little "high building".

At the same time, you'll need to fit the AW30-43LE automatic (or if you take a 180 hp an M90 box) - if you take the auto, then you'll need the cables/wiring and at the same time, the ECU for it...

A conversion is possible, but expect a lot of work needed to get it in...

Thanks! Not that it's going to happen anytime soon....

[rogerthechorister]

There are several references to apparently stock 2.3 litre turbos with M47 here: -

http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-245.html

[rogerthechorister]

Cars that use this M47 transmission: (1987 240 DL/GL) (1987 740) (1987 740 Turbo) (1987 760 Turbo) (1988 240 DL/GL) (1988 740) (1989 240 DL/GL) (1989 740 GL) (1990 240) (1990 240 DL) (1990 740) (1990 740 GL) (1991 240 DL) (1991 740) (1992 240 DL) (1992 240 GL) (1993 240 DL/CLASSIC) (1993 240 GL)

[Clan]

the M90 internals are taken from the M56 850 gearbox , the gear wheels are huge and very wide ,

[Daim]

Cars that use this M47 transmission: (1987 240 DL/GL) (1987 740) (1987 740 Turbo) (1987 760 Turbo) (1988 240 DL/GL) (1988 740) (1989 240 DL/GL) (1989 740 GL) (1990 240) (1990 240 DL) (1990 740) (1990 740 GL) (1991 240 DL) (1991 740) (1992 240 DL) (1992 240 GL) (1993 240 DL/CLASSIC) (1993 240 GL)

You double checked that with Vida/Vadis?

According to the German version, after selecting engine types, you don't get any M47 if you choose a B230FT, -ET, B28E, B280E, B280F, B234F, B234G. The only choice:

M46, AW71, AW72, M90

Can't see an M47 there ;) But I'm not refering to the car with it built in, instead the engine with the box coupled to it. A 240 DL ain't a turbo... So the M47 fits. A normal 740 isn't a turbo, so it fits.

The M47 is really a "weak" gearbox. They used it on the D24. Then, the D24T (with a little bit more torque than a B230F) got the M46. The B230E has mostly the M46 (or an AW71) - and it has only a little bit more torque.

[T240]

I don't believe you can break an M90 with only 180 bhp. They are normally reckoned to be good for about 500 bhp on the hairy redblocks.

The B230ETs were putting 182 bhp through M46s and M47s and everyone and their dog knows that the M90s are lots tougher than the M46 and M47.

The B280Es were also putting 170 bhp through M46s and M47s (although the only B280E I ever drove felt more like 120 bhp)

Yep, that's what I've always thought Roger, and I know several high output engines have the M90 fitted.

Yet, oddly, according to Volvo sources, they only ever fitted an M90 to the 180bhp version of the 3 litre six.

Cheers,

T

BTW, the camshafts on the 180 and 204 bhp B6304S2 and B6304FS versions are identical. There are two choices each of inlet and exhaust camshafts which only differ by engine year code - not power output.
That is to say that, for instance, inlet cam 3531901 or inlet cam 1275129 cam be fitted to either 180 or 204 bhp versions (dependent only on the engine code label, not the power output. As the heads are identical also, I assume the power output must be defined by the ecu?
The cam numbers also correspond with the B6304GS as well. This comes from VADIS.

[TheJoyOfSix]

BTW, the camshafts on the 180 and 204 bhp B6304S2 and B6304FS versions are identical. There are two choices each of inlet and exhaust camshafts which only differ by engine year code - not power output.
That is to say that, for instance, inlet cam 3531901 or inlet cam 1275129 cam be fitted to either 180 or 204 bhp versions (dependent only on the engine code label, not the power output. As the heads are identical also, I assume the power output must be defined by the ecu?
The cam numbers also correspond with the B6304GS as well. This comes from VADIS.

That's odd, I'm sure that when I looked it was the ECU's that were the same and the cams different. Unfortunately my VADIS has crashed so I'm unable to check and confirm.

Hmmm, can any one else check to see which way round it is?

[T240]

That's odd, I'm sure that when I looked it was the ECU's that were the same and the cams different. Unfortunately my VADIS has crashed so I'm unable to check and confirm.

Hmmm, can any one else check to see which way round it is?

There are two different cams listed for all the later 3 litre cars, irrespective of power output.

From VADIS:

Inlet: 3531901 (note: For vehicle with engine code 95, 98 see product label)
(this cam is also fitted to B6304GS and original FS)

Inlet: 1275129 (note: For vehicles with engine code 96 see product label)

Exhaust: 3531900 (note: For vehicles with engine code 95, 98 see product label)
(this cam is also fitted to B6304GS and original FS)

Exhaust: 1275130 (note: For vehicles with engine code 96 see product label)

By all means someone double check; but that is what it says.

Cheers,

T

[Theo]

According to the owners manual for my 1997 V90, the B6304S2 engine is 180 BHP and the B6304S has 204 BHP.

[rogerb]

The cams are different . I have measured the lift on the 180 and 204 cams , and fitted a set of 204 cams to a 180 V90 with a M90 box. More go at the top end , less lower down.
I believe the 180 hp cams are the same as the 2.5l 170 hp cams.
Roger

[Slevin]

Yes,the cam profile is the difference between the 2 engines.You can read it on Wikipedia-Volvo modular engines.
So do you guys think the Mk2 960 also came with the 204hp engine?

[doingitsideways]

definitely did, but only on the auto :)

Ironic really, as the M90 manual as found attatched to the 2.5 or 180 3.0 is FAR stronger than the auto 'box!

Steve :thumbs_up:

[rogerthechorister]

So the sensible plan is to get a manual 180 3 litre and change the cams, innit?

[Slevin]

My plan is to get a pair of cams and put them in my T6 powered 960.