Overfilled sump - bad starting problem

[vincentvg]

My V70 with the Audi lump (70K on clock) has exhibited a bizarre starting problem, only since I got it back from a service.


Starts well in cold weather.
Starts well when hot.
"Stumbles" and misfires occasionally, with accompanying smoke, when starting cool: i.e. after it has stood for a few hours, say, or on a mild morning when the glowplugs aren't called for.
Runs 100% perfectly once under way.


When I got the car back from service, I noticed that they had grossly overfilled the sump (well over the high mark on the dipstick). They had the car back and removed some oil - but it's still overfull when it's had time to drain down.

The starting problem has never occurred before - and seems to be gradually improving as time goes on.

My theory is that, with excess lubricant around the place, the engine's acting as though it had an over-rich mixture. If the cylinders are hot (either due to having just been run, or due to the glowplugs kicking in), it can cope with the excess "fuel", and starts OK; but when cool, it can't.

The garage dismisses this - but, despite having the car back and checking timing, glow plugs, and looking for injection system air leaks - have not cured the problem.

Does anyone have any experience of this? Obviously The ultimate test will be to remove some more lubricant to bring the sump back to level - but it's a pain!

[RoyMacDonald]

How about asking Kwik Fit to suck a bit out with their machine (through the dipstick I think)

Roy

[BillB]

I don't think excess oil would normally affect the running of the engine in the way you describe. However, it MIGHT lead to oil seal failure due to excess oil pressure and you don't want that because, if the front seals fail, oil could contaminate the cambelt. When you say "grossly overfilled" it would have to be up into the cylinders to maybe upset the engine running - I don't see how anyone with a brain could put THAT much oil in. Who did it as a matter of interest? Regards.

[RoyMacDonald]

I don't think excess oil would normally affect the running of the engine in the way you describe. However, it MIGHT lead to oil seal failure due to excess oil pressure and you don't want that because, if the front seals fail, oil could contaminate the cambelt. When you say "grossly overfilled" it would have to be up into the cylinders to maybe upset the engine running - I don't see how anyone with a brain could put THAT much oil in. Who did it as a matter of interest? Regards.

My understanding is that the crankshaft can hit the top of the sump oil with excessive overfilling and cause the oil to become frothy, and it's not good for the engine to have an oil/air mix being pumped around the engine instead of pure oil.

Roy

[vincentvg]

Dunno - but it's definitely starting better now that I've put some miles on - it's now only a problem when it's stood for a good long time, AND the weather's too warm for the glow plugs to kick in. Oil level is still high - but not by a lot.

I'm still of the opinion that too much lube may be the cause of the problem. When we first had it back from service it would fire up and then stall immediately - sometimes two or three times; run rough for the first 30 secs or so once underway; and even threaten to conk out when de-clutching at a junction or roundabout. All very un-diesel behaviour! Most of those symptoms have disappeared now after a couple of thousand miles: it just stumbles slightly on first start, maybe once out of five, and improving.

There are warnings all over the place about not overfilling the sump - makes me feel that there must be a good reason!

Service was done by an independent - always been very good before this. It's not hard to overfill with oil - but inexcusable to send it out like that IMO.

[RoyMacDonald]

Dunno - but it's definitely starting better now that I've put some miles on - it's now only a problem when it's stood for a good long time, AND the weather's too warm for the glow plugs to kick in. Oil level is still high - but not by a lot.

I'm still of the opinion that too much lube may be the cause of the problem. When we first had it back from service it would fire up and then stall immediately - sometimes two or three times; run rough for the first 30 secs or so once underway; and even threaten to conk out when de-clutching at a junction or roundabout. All very un-diesel behaviour! Most of those symptoms have disappeared now after a couple of thousand miles: it just stumbles slightly on first start, maybe once out of five, and improving.

There are warnings all over the place about not overfilling the sump - makes me feel that there must be a good reason!

Service was done by an independent - always been very good before this. It's not hard to overfill with oil - but inexcusable to send it out like that IMO.

I think the problem is that the workshops tend to fill and check the level quickly. It then drains down from the engine into the sump. I've noticed that the level rises noticably overnight and then even more if my car is left standing for a couple of weeks. I think the D5 is very slow filler.

[Gazmo]

As youve said there are warnings not to overfill the oil and the capacity should be 6 litres,when i bought my car ( a 97 V70 ) i did an oil change and removed in excess of 7 litres this cured a lot of smoking but i didnt have any starting problems,I do know that Volvo state in there owners hand book that oil can be diluted by the fuel if the vehicle is used for short journeys and the oil level appears to rise and then when the car is taken on a long motorway run it would appear to suffer from high oil consumption because the fuel in the oil has been evaporated or burnt off. If your unsure about the oil quantity take it back and get them to do another oil change but only get them to fill it with 6 litres and see what the level looks like on the dip stick, or what ive done is go to Screwfix and bought an oil syphon pump its a bit of kit that you build up a vacuum in by using a pump attached to the top of a reservoir after inserting a length of pipe down the dipstick hole and it sucks it all out ,NO CRAWLING UNDER THE CAR OR REMOVING UNDER TRAYS NO MESS,and it works really well,then all you do is change the filter,the best bit is it only costs £35

[RoyMacDonald]

I couldn't find one on the screwfix site but found this one.......

http://www.cdet.co.uk/default.asp

And info on using it......

http://www.pelapumps.co.uk/default.aspx?a10page=pl2000use

Roy

[Gazmo]

Thats the one i havent got a current screwfix catalogue but im sure its in there in the automotive section

[vincentvg]

This looks like the very thing - and only £6.99! Think I might give it a go

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/29430/Automotive/Mechanics-Tools/Oil-Suction-Gun#

The car's getting so much better now that the oil level's decreasing, that I was tempted to leave it - but at that price ... I'll post an update when I've sucked a couple of pints out.

[smle]

Hi Vincentvg

Recently bought a S80 with the same Audi Diesel Engine, (2001 Reg), decided to change oil, added recommended 6 Litres, checked dipstick and the level was about three inches above full mark. Then drained oil to check the amount I had added, there was 6 litres right enough.

Verified from Volvo spec (VADIS) that 6 Litres was correct, and decided that something else was wrong.

Checked the parts list in VADIS and noticed that TWO dipsticks were specified for that engine.

P/Nos. 9180736 and 9497470

Can only assume that somehow the wrong dipstick has been fitted.

I would strongly suggest that you have your garage drain your engine and refill with 6 litres.

As to the stumble when warming up, since it starts and runs ok I wouldn't worry about it, put it down to its age and modern electrickery. Mine does the same.

BTW I recently mention the dipstick problem on the S80 forum but nobody responded.

I was thinking of asking at a Volvo dealers to view the two dipsticks (Eventually)

[Mike B]

This leaves more sludge in the bottem of the sump !! A very bad idea, even if you run the engine till its hot there will still be more crud left in the sump than if the plug is removed ,as the oil flows quicker .
Only my opinion as an ex engineer of 35 years .
Regards
Mike B

[vincentvg]

Yeah - but the idea is just to remove a couple of pints - to get the level back where it should be. I'm not proposing to change the oil using this device: not least because I've only just had an oil & filter change less than 2K miles ago (the reason for this thread, and the cause of my distress)!

[smle]

VINCENTVG

Surely the most important point here is having the correct amount of oil in the engine??

If you add the correct amount (in this case 6 litres) and the dipstick shows very high with the car on level ground there is something wrong with the dipstick.

I don't know why you are taking more oil out. IMHO either you or your garage must verify that only 6 litres have been added and make a note of where this appears on the dipstick and in the future maintain this level.

If not you risk a ruined engine.

[vincentvg]

The dipstick is the original - I've owned the car (and its dipstick) from new. The dipstick is correct: it's the amount of oil in the sump that's incorrect!

[RoyMacDonald]

VINCENTVG

Surely the most important point here is having the correct amount of oil in the engine??

If you add the correct amount (in this case 6 litres) and the dipstick shows very high with the car on level ground there is something wrong with the dipstick.

I don't know why you are taking more oil out. IMHO either you or your garage must verify that only 6 litres have been added and make a note of where this appears on the dipstick and in the future maintain this level.

If not you risk a ruined engine.

If the engine sump capacity is 6 litres, that will be with an unfilled engine. However a Volvo engine that has been filled previously, when drained, will still hold about a liter of oil in my experience, unless you leave it to drain for 2 to 3 weeks. Thus if you put 6 liters in it will be well overfilled. Probably what happened in the first place.

My XC90 with a D5 engine handbook states to check the oil level with a cold engine for the most accurate reading. I've found the oil level shown on the dipstick will still continue to rise for 3 weeks though if the car is unused.

Roy

[vincentvg]

Probably what happened in the first place.

Roy

Exactly! Thanks Roy

[monkeh]

I havent read all the posts, but Overfilling a diesel engine with oil can be its last days work soon if not rectified.
The engine will go into runaway, ie. just rev up, up, up and away it goes to the breakers in the sky, happened with various diesels about in my and other peoples ownership, fortunately the Beringo I was driving just blew all the vacuum pipes off and ejected most of the oil itself while I was using the 'runaway' to drive back to the shop. (I overfilled it due to a profuse oil leak)

You have been warned!


(will read the rest of the posts)


IMHO, Get your money back off the service agents for attempting to **** up your engine.

[Gazmo]

My owners hand book states that if you do an oil change and use the 6litres of oil recommended then the level will be half way between the upper and lower level marks on the dipstick

[RoyMacDonald]

My owners hand book states that if you do an oil change and use the 6litres of oil recommended then the level will be half way between the upper and lower level marks on the dipstick

My 2003 handbook which covers that engine as well as the D5, dosn't give any infomation on changing the oil only checking the level. It does give a capacity of 5.8 litres but that will be with an empty engine. Once a Volvo has had oil in it, it will always retain a suprising amount. My various Volvos have held between one and one and a half liters. One of the handbooks for my old Volvos which had more servicing info used to comment that a certain amount would be left in the engine. (Might have been the 245, but could have been the 940)

Roy

[vincentvg]

Reckon they must have put about 8 litres in originally then! Most of the excess was drained straight away, when the mistake was noticed, but the level's still above the high mark when it's had time to drain down.

Haven't had a chance to do anything about it yet, but I'm going to get a pump and take a couple of pints out, and see where that takes the dipstick level to. The bad starting has improved markedly now - I'm hoping that once I've done the above, it'll be cured for good. Then I need a letter from Volvo stating what the possible consequences of the overfill might be (cat for example?), so I've got something to have a go at the garage if I get a problem later on.

[paul3346]

Hi there,
I haven't read all the posts but I thought I may as well add my experience. My motor is a 10v 2.0l 1998 v70 auto. A couple of years ago, had it serviced by a local mechanic who had done well by all my other motors. Travelling up a hill and doing about 4k revs the engine took ill. Power dying and when I looked in the rear view mirror there was a massive blue fog obscuring everything, and I do mean everything. Managed to keep it going and limped to a laybye. After a while the engine sounded sweet and I went home. The end result was approx 1.5l excess oil. It must have got past the rings into the combustion chamber hence the fog. No long lasting results just a worry that the credit card was about to get hammered.
Paul