V50. Petrol or Diesel?

[GazT4]

Just get a diesel, you wont regret it!

I just thought, the D5 hasnt been mentioned?

I dont know what theyre like but i think they have a good reputation and are maybe Volvos own engine.

[JABB]

D5 cars are few and far between in sport guise at my budget.

What is the T5 like as a car?

[SonyVaio]

Originally Posted by JABB

D5 cars are few and far between in sport guise at my budget.

What is the T5 like as a car?

T5's are very good but are also thirsty with it too. You don't buy a T5 for fuel economy!

As above the D5 is a really good engine with great power and modest economy - best of both worlds really (power and economy).

Have a search here for Shark Performance and look at their D5 thread.

[SiRS2000]

D5

I have a D5 and I was torn between my Silver D5 & a Black T5 when I bought mine both Ex Volvo Management cars up at the same price with very similar specs and mileage.

In the end I chose the D5 as at the time I had high-powered petrol engine Focus ST170 Estate very nice car but at 6.5 years old and even with only 42,000 on the clock it became worthless. I was at one point only offered £3000 as a trade in on a new Focus Titanium 2.0D Estate £20000 + . At the same time my wife’s 03 Fiesta 1.4 Petrol Zetec with 78,000 was offered the same amount £3000 against a car that only cost £9000.

I learnt very quickly that just on depreciation High powered petrol engine estates are just not desired further on in the cars life and diesel is where you will retain any value.

So I did my sums

Costs

D5 45 mpg T5 30 mpg
D5 £180 Tax Band E T5 £210 Tax Band F
Both Insurance group 15

Performance

D5 180 Bhp T5 Bhp 230
D5 0 - 62 7.9 Secs T5 6.5 Secs
D5 Top Speed 140 Mph T5 Top Speed 150 Mph

I concluded that the D5 was the one to buy with my head but the T5 was the one to Buy with my heart as I had always had powerful petrol engine cars and to be honest I am glad I bought the D5 it is more than fast enough for day to day driving bags of pull and for a Diesel it sounds quite nice & I can not see a T5 being that much quicker if it came to it.

[GazT4]

Originally Posted by SonyVaio

Well that all makes interesting reading.

I'm a diesel lover who has only just gone back to a petrol with my current T5 so I sit directly on top of the fence when it comes to Pertol or Diesel. Although my car is petrol the other half has a diesel. Petrol at the pump is cheaper to buy but then to be fair to most diesels you will get further in a diesel to the same amount of fuel.

I like and enjoy both types, i service them both and I insure them both.

Modern diesels are very good and as has been said they have great low down torque which gives good low down grunt which is good for everyday driving. Petrols have their upside too though and can offer vast money saving over a diesel throughout a vehicles lifetime IMHO.

If you bought 2 exact same brand new cars one petrol and one diesel and only drove 8 to 10,000 a year the petrol would be far more economical than the diesel in terms of cost, then if you up the mileage to 20,000 a year then the diesel will win hands down on overall costs.

To be fair in a comparison then you have to pick a Turbo Petrol against a Turbo Diesel just as you would have to pick a normal aspirated petrol against a normal aspirated diesel. In this instance you would get just as good get up and go from the petrol as you would the diesel with the added ability of revving higher thus needing less gear changes and ultimately providing less wear on the engine and gearbox.

Before I go on I have no idea about Volvo statistics wether or not more diesels made did or did not have the DPFs or DPFs with EOLYS or lifetime DPF's or infact had no DPF at all.

Petrols are very simple with not a great deal to go wrong and no great extras

Air, Oil, Fuel, pollen then every few years spark plugs

Extras - Brake fluid, clutch fluid, power steering fluid and coolant

Diesels for a normal service

Air, Oil, Fuel, Pollen and every few years glow plugs

Extras - Brake fluid, clutch fluid, power steering fluid, coolant, EOLYS fluid, DPF or DPF and EOLYS

So in general servicing terms the diesel is likely to cost about the same UNLESS it is indeed fitted with a DPF and especially ones fitted with DPF and EOLYS tank.

Now when you look at common problems over the life of a diesel compared to a petrol then for me it looks like this:

Turbo - both cars got one and it can fail on either with both expecting at least around 150,000 miles to a turbo (LPT Turbos expecting a little more life). If petrol is fitted with a LPT trubo then expect the that to last longer so in cost calculations will cost less overall.

Fuel Pump - You expect to last the life of a car but unfortunately most don't! If a diesel fuel pump fails then you are looking at a world of pain in the fact it can cost literally thousands of pound to fix. With a petrol you are looking at a fuel pump costing 1/10th that of a diesel. Talking about main (high pressure) fuel pumps here not those that may have a little secondary diesel one in the fuel tank.

Then there are other common problems which fortunately or unfortunately depending what side of the fence you sit on are mainly (but not always) attributable to running a diesel.

Flywheel - DMF failing (then as a subsiduary cost beyond the DMF itself in replacing clutch plate, thrust bearing and slave cylinder - although not always necessary I agree). I do agree that a DMF failing in not just on diesels but the falure rate is far higher on a diesel.

Swirl Flaps

EGR Valve

DPF (EOLYS)

What i therefor conclude is over the space of a lifetime of a modern diesel compared to that of a modern petrol the diesel would prove more expensive to run in overall costs. Let's not forget that a diesel often cost a great deal of money more to buy in the first place.

I will also conclude that if you purchase a second hand diesel and only keep for a few years then change for a newer car where you don't encounter some of the excess expenses (DMF, DPF (EOLYS), fuel pump) then the diesel will indeed prove more cost effective. But this is in a 'just add fuel senario' or a high mileage runner.

Of course I've gone generic with what has been written above and not gone manufacturer nor model specific. I like both petrol and diesel cars, they each have their own characteristics that may or may not suit you individually. The choice is up to you and you alone - you pays your money you takes your chance!

I've tried to be objective here and give a genuine unbiased appraisal.

Can i just say, youve said petrol/diesel servicing costs are the same (even though you have again quoted glow plugs, why?? They DO NOT get changed!!) then added that the 'common' problems are what makes the diesel more expensive over a lifetime.

The 'common' problems were DMF, which i agree do occasionally go wrong, but both on petrol and diesel and on any make/model that has one.

The fuel pump, which ive never actually seen one fail on a Volvo although it appears more common on Mondeos somehow (different pump maybe?).

Swirl flaps? Where? Not on a 2.0D!

Again, im on 153000miles and have original DMF, Fuel Pump and Turbo.

You forgot to mention the most important thing- fuel economy. 50mpg in a diesel.

Tax- Low band and cheap for a diesel.

[GazT4]

Originally Posted by SiRS2000

D5

I have a D5 and I was torn between my Silver D5 & a Black T5 when I bought mine both Ex Volvo Management cars up at the same price with very similar specs and mileage.

In the end I chose the D5 as at the time I had high-powered petrol engine Focus ST170 Estate very nice car but at 6.5 years old and even with only 42,000 on the clock it became worthless. I was at one point only offered £3000 as a trade in on a new Focus Titanium 2.0D Estate £20000 + . At the same time my wife’s 03 Fiesta 1.4 Petrol Zetec with 78,000 was offered the same amount £3000 against a car that only cost £9000.

I learnt very quickly that just on depreciation High powered petrol engine estates are just not desired further on in the cars life and diesel is where you will retain any value.

So I did my sums

Costs

D5 45 mpg T5 30 mpg
D5 £180 Tax Band E T5 £210 Tax Band F
Both Insurance group 15

Performance

D5 180 Bhp T5 Bhp 230
D5 0 - 62 7.9 Secs T5 6.5 Secs
D5 Top Speed 140 Mph T5 Top Speed 150 Mph

I concluded that the D5 was the one to buy with my head but the T5 was the one to Buy with my heart as I had always had powerful petrol engine cars and to be honest I am glad I bought the D5 it is more than fast enough for day to day driving bags of pull and for a Diesel it sounds quite nice & I can not see a T5 being that much quicker if it came to it.

Wow, the Focus was a genuine ST170 Estate? Cant be many of them!!

Id love a D5, with a remap 230bhp and 500nm of torque!

[SonyVaio]

Gaz, before I respond to your points raised I'll just say that if you read what I have written properly, then I was talking about diesels as a whole and across all manufacturers and all models - I was being generic! Unlike yourself who is being specific with your particular model and engine.

Originally Posted by GazT4

Can i just say, youve said petrol/diesel servicing costs are the same (even though you have again quoted glow plugs, why?? They DO NOT get changed!!) then added that the 'common' problems are what makes the diesel more expensive over a lifetime..

You may have been lucky on your particular car but many people DO have to change their glow plugs and glow plugs DO fail. Your argument can be turned right round and we could say petrols do not need spark plugs changing unless they fail, there millions of people who don't service their car and their spark plugs last for 10+ years, infact the vehicles normaly die from some other reason and the spark plugs soldier on.

Originally Posted by GazT4

The 'common' problems were DMF, which i agree do occasionally go wrong, but both on petrol and diesel and on any make/model that has one.

I also noted it can happen to both petrol and diesel but I'm sure you'll find the majority of DMF's that fail are on diesels over petrols and certainly often enough to warrant a mention as a common fault on a diesel.

Originally Posted by GazT4

The fuel pump, which ive never actually seen one fail on a Volvo although it appears more common on Mondeos somehow (different pump maybe?).

Believe me diesel fuel pumps can and do fail. I sincerely hope yours never fails on you but if it did the cost to fix is astronomical on a diesel and only about 1/10th of the cost on a petrol.

Originally Posted by GazT4

Swirl flaps? Where? Not on a 2.0D!

Like I said above I was being generic, your model may not have them but other makes and models do, they are a very common problem and again cost to fix.

Originally Posted by GazT4

Again, im on 153000miles and have original DMF, Fuel Pump and Turbo.

Your doing well so far and long may it continue but eventually you will encounter these expenses or will have got rid of the vehicle. It doesn't take away from their possibilty and more probability to fail at some point.

Originally Posted by GazT4

You forgot to mention the most important thing- fuel economy. 50mpg in a diesel.

I did mention fuel, I believe it was the second sentence. I completely concur that most diesels are better for economy but given it can cost thousands of pounds more in the first place to purchase then you are already on the back foot and have a lot of economy catching up to do. This covers your tax difference point too.

Originally Posted by GazT4

Tax- Low band and cheap for a diesel.

Like in my original text, I am on top of the fence and love both petrol and diesels, have both in the household and prior to my current T5 have had nothing but diesels for the last 10+ years. I don't need to be sold on the benifits and pitfalls of either but at the same time i'm not disillutioned to possible costs and very common problems of a modern diesel. Tollerences are being pushed further and further to attain targets and magical figures and boost pressures are increased - it all takes it toll.

[Daim]

Regarding swirlflaps on a 2.0d: there aren't any BUT instead it has a throttle body, which proves to cause problems... But that was all I wanted to write

[SiRS2000]

Originally Posted by GazT4

Wow, the Focus was a genuine ST170 Estate? Cant be many of them!!

Id love a D5, with a remap 230bhp and 500nm of torque!

Gaz

No not many at all have a look on Autotrader only normaly max of 5 for sale, it was a nice car, quick but typical VVT engine you had to rev it to get it to go unlike the D5 which has loads of low down grunt for every day driving.