G/box: 2WD: Under cooled factory Autos - Now I have proof.

[CNGBiFuel]

I've banged on about this before

I won't cover the old ground about the requirement to flush these boxes, 'the Gibbon's flush, Volvo's sealed for life claims, which Toyota iV compliant synthetic or non-synthetic you should use, and you only need a cooler for towing etc etc etc.

It's all been doen to death. In short, Volvo's recommendations work for 1) Their customers and 2) Those with warranties. You're unlikely to be the first and you don't have the second. Hence ignore them - why gets explained here...

What I can add is conculsive proof of over-heating. An update. All these cars seem to be found with Black or very dark brown ATF after more than 40-50,000 miles, and with many on 120,000+ miles without a fluid change, they run ATF burnt blacker than Newgate's knocker.

The problem is undercooling.
It doesn't manifest itself in warranty mileages, so doesn't hit Volvo customers, because Volvo customers have long since got rid of thes cars 14 years ago. This hits the non-Volvo customer, the likes of us.

My findings.
Update: Since fitting a cooler my box has done 62,000 here's the thing, the fluid is still pink. Before I had the cooler, it'd be going brown by 15,000 and definitley cooked at 40,000. I do galactic miles compared to most of you so I consider my car a v.good test bed of this fact. Minded to me towing when previulsy I didn't , that proves teh point. If it's a keeper, fit a cooler. At the very least flush.

If you must go to a main-dealer for ATF, go to a Toyota one.

In more detail, the why and the wherefore. The full SP:

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=235190

[luggsey]

Thanks for the interesting post.
Do you suppose just fitting a electric cooling fan on the area of the rad with the auto oil would do the trick?

[Clan]

Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel

I've banged on about this before

I won't cover the old ground about the requirement to flush these boxes, 'the Gibbon's flush, Volvo's sealed for life claims, which Toyota iV compliant synthetic or non-synthetic you should use, and you only need a cooler for towing etc etc etc.

It's all been doen to death. In short, Volvo's recommendations work for 1) Their customers and 2) Those with warranties. You're unlikely to be the first and you don't have the second. Hence ignore them - why gets explained here...

What I can add is conculsive proof of over-heating. An update. All these cars seem to be found with Black or very dark brown ATF after more than 40-50,000 miles, and with many on 120,000+ miles without a fluid change, they run ATF burnt blacker than Newgate's knocker.

The problem is undercooling.
It doesn't manifest itself in warranty mileages, so doesn't hit Volvo customers, because Volvo customers have long since got rid of thes cars 14 years ago. This hits the non-Volvo customer, the likes of us.

My findings.
Update: Since fitting a cooler my box has done 62,000 here's the thing, the fluid is still pink. Before I had the cooler, it'd be going brown by 15,000 and definitley cooked at 40,000. I do galactic miles compared to most of you so I consider my car a v.good test bed of this fact. Minded to me towing when previulsy I didn't , that proves teh point. If it's a keeper, fit a cooler. At the very least flush.

If you must go to a main-dealer for ATF, go to a Toyota one.

In more detail, the why and the wherefore. The full SP:

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=235190

but all autos have a heat exchanger in the radiator ., The fluid needs to get up to 120C to evaporate off moisture .. what you need is to monitor the transmission oil temperature for a scientific answer .

[CNGBiFuel]

Will a fan do the job. No, it already has one. it is not up to the job.

I do monitor the temperature. You can do it via a reader if you like. Read the thread. Yet, if your ATF is balck and it will be, you won't need to. And yes, there an internal cooler. It is not up to the job. Volvo admit this. See the thread abd see this in their own documentation. What moisture? Where? Moisture in ATF? How? Why? You had better hope not. Me thinks for the benefit of others, we mount a 'Psued alert'. 120C.. and get this to remove the moisture? i would hope not. Clearly you have no idea how any auto box is cooled, when and why do you? Did you read the thread? Did you understand the thread?

What you need is to monitor the transmission oil temperature for a scientific answer and no rectal passage.

Moisture? I ask you.

Pay attention at the back.

[rudi dudi]

Moisture find's it's way in to many fluids in a car. Engine oil,Brake fluid,Gearbox oil so I cant see Atf being any different.

Have you ever seen Mayo on the dipstick or inside an oil filler cap.

We live in a cold damp country and large lumps of metal will attract condensation.

[Clan]

Originally Posted by rudi dudi

Moisture find's it's way in to many fluids in a car. Engine oil,Brake fluid,Gearbox oil so I cant see Atf being any different.

Have you ever seen Mayo on the dipstick or inside an oil filler cap.

We live in a cold damp country and large lumps of metal will attract condensation.

indeed , Once an auto was throwing transmission oil out in one place on the M5 coming up that long hill towards bristol it did it every time they brought their caravan with them , it was a mystery as no leak could be found . To cut a long story short it turned out to be the water boiling off in the fluid when it reached 100 c and forcing fluid/steam out the breather on top . A fluid change cured that one ... The heat exchanger in the radiator helps heat the fluid as well as cools it .

[CNGBiFuel]

I'm sorry I've been slow to catch on to the trolling. Think it's all to do with the moon and the tides, and next door's cat. The moisture I mean. It gets to 120C and then cools again, and cartwheels with glee down the street, to find its way into my glovebox. Terrible mess It's scientific see.

And... i rest my case. Now we are repeating and confiming the content of my thread.

ATF in the ideal, should be warmed up as quickly as possible, and then kept at 85-95C. At much over 100 it will be burning. At 120 definitley. If you ATF is black or dark brown this evidences the fact. It went over that ideal operating temp. In all the cars i ever seen with over 50,000 miles on the ATF that is the case. The under cooling is intentional. Volvo want it to burn. It's only you that doesn't. Check you trans dipstick. If you've not flushed, £500 says it's black. ie It's under cooling. Worse, as ATF gets blacker it runs hotter, which makes it burn still hotter and into a downward spiral. So once it starts the burn, it burns all the more.

ATF has no need to get to 120 or 100 come to that. If you see 100C you've admitted my point. You've already a tad over the ideal.
What little condensation forms will evaporate fairly quickly much over 40C. Much like water does on tarmac without boiling. Those with the caravan may well see boiling over once a year and on the same bit of motorway, yet this agian proves the undercooling. When for the rest of the year, short trips mean the box never gets to 85C or much over warm, who would be surprised? They spent a year building up condensation. Then a fluid change will solve the issue, the ATF is shot anyway. Until next year that is. Or it was just getting too hot for old black & burnt fluid, which was making it get hotter still. Hence naff all to do with 'moisture' (more likely) This simply because at temperatures where ATF is being thrown, water left the party long ago. The two could not coexist at boiling because of fractal/fractioanal distillation. [Remeber yoru schoolboy chemistry?]

The rest of use drive our cars more than the required 25-30 minutes, so see the insignificant levels of condensation evaporate without any need to boil it off. By 85C we won't have this issue. At 70-80C moisture evaporates very well.

The internal cooler heats and then cools, but in doing the first well, does the last quite poorly. To do both well you need a stat and an aux cooler.


Now we are repeating and confirming the content of my thread.

Your ATF is black on your dipstick because Volvo like it that way. It saved them fittng a thermostat and cooler, and makes ATF or the gearbox, (or perhapss the whole car) at extended non-warranty miles a replacement item. This puts gravy on their bottom-line without upsetting their customer-base. It has nothing to do with moisture or 120C, or 100C. Yet these numbers are where you start to screw your transmission.

Next doors' cat ain't too keen on 'em either.

[happy diver]

For those that love their car



XC90 cooler into C70
better than a bought one



because they make the transmission



and not all 3309 is the same



choose to drain and fill, yes there is something irreparably flawed
and it's not the car



because you must

[CNGBiFuel]

Any cooler could be cobbled to fit, particualry if you fit a stat as I've done it won't be all that critical which one or the size. Seems the XC90 is a neat fit. See my thread.

Here we go... Aisin don't make that, Toyota don't refine oil. Volvo don't refien oil. There only three refiners of 3309 in the world. Mobil make most of it, and their blend is fully synth. Enron do it too. Everyone else puts 3309 in their shape of bottle. So the Volvo bottled stuff is just that, Volvo bottled. As is the Aisin stuff. I'll sell it to you in a milk bottle if you like, mine's a bit brown though

Want it in an Aisin bottle, be my guest.
See my thread for the 3309 list of alternatives. I think Carlube's flavour is cheapest right now. Fully synth, I suspect it's from Mobil with different dye.
I sent tow batches of 3309 to Blackstone last year, and they said it was all the same blend. It was them that told me who makes most of the JWS 3309.

If you don't flush, under cooling carbonises he ATF and stops it doing its job. Which is a downward spiral.

[RobertDIY]

Sad to say, I have learned the hard way. I tried to win the battle but I failed.

When I purchased my '95 850 it had a bad transmission, auto. It would struggle to move. I had it replaced with another used transmission at 192,000 miles.

I love the road and quickly learned that my fluid was turning brown. So I would change it depending on the hard driving I was doing. Between 25,000 and 50,000 miles, each time finding the fluid brown again. One time it was redish but usually brown.

A friend gave me a transmission cooler and I had new lines built to fit the cooler, however I delayed and did not install it in time. I went on 3 or 4 journey's in western USA with my wagon overloaded and I began to hear whining whenever I shifted the vehicle into any gear. In the west we have severe heat and steady long grades (up and down) and I'm sure my transmission temps got out of ideal range (no cooler installed).

After completing my trips, my transmission started showing signs of failure. Aggressively shifting in and out of gear when starting to drive ect. So I decided to change some of the fluid and add some Lucas transmission (hero in a bottle) fix fluid. The fluid come out brown again.

I tell people all the time, if it really were lifetime fluid, the transmission would have a lifetime warranty. I agree, Volvo does not want you tinkering with the fluid while the vehicle is under warranty, and they usually last beyond the original purchaser's ownership. It's up to the consecutive owners to look out for themselves.

I have decided to go a step beyond recommending that people change the fluid every 50,000 miles. Now, I also recommend an external cooler.

I plan to run a few test over the next few months to see what combination of cooler installation effects the temperatures of the transmission. I do not plan to install a thermostat, I guess I can look into that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sCTaKaJrc