Diesel DPF recall

[Jim314]

I am amazed at the 18 kmi oil-change interval in a diesel. Is this 18 kmi or some time limit, whichever comes first? I guess both the engines and the oils have improved to make this possible. I remember a coworker greatly shortened the life of the engine in her 1980? Mercedes 190D by letting the oil go too long between changes. Those naturally aspirated Mercedes diesels were underpowered.

The oil change interval in the manual for my 2004 V70 2.4L 170 is 7.5 kmi. Once it was out of warranty I went to an annual oil change with Mobile1 10W-30 Extended Performance 'guaranteed' for 15 kmi or 1 year.

It seems that this recall and revision of the program for regeneration of the DPF may have solved the problem. A diesel is a great engine for a person who puts a lot of miles on a vehicle and wants to do his part to conserve petroleum. Or if he just wants one!

Volvo has not offered its diesels in the US. If they had, I'm sure I would have gotten one with a manual tranny. For decades I wanted a diesel, but could never justify the increased up-front cost. Whenever, it came to a new vehicle we always tried to get a good 'value' which meant a petrol vehicle in a low trim level. In about 2001 I was close to getting a VW Jetta diesel, but then on final analysis it made more financial sense to do some repair on my existing 1991 petrol Dodge Spirit 4-dr sedan 2.5L 100 hp with 5-spd manual which was worthless in trade-in. I ended up driving it for another 5 years (16.5 years total), and giving it away still functioning as reliable value transportation with ice cold a/c.

In fall 2003 my wife bought a US base model V70 petrol 2.4L 170 5-spd auto out of existing dealer stock and they gave what I thought was a great price. It now has only 45 kmi on it, and has a lot more interior room than a VW Jetta. I got this as a hand-me-down when my wife got a good deal on a US base model XC90 3.2L I6 out of dealer stock.

[Bill_56]

Hi Jim, it's 18k or 12 months, whichever comes first.

[The Doc]

Can I offer some factual updates related to the issue of diesel fuel leaking in the engine oil please?
But first some a few corrections to some small technical errors in earlier contributions.
When the dealer "reduces the oil to 2/3rds" that is NOT 2/3rds the total volume of oil in the sump (which is 6 litres on the V70 D5). It is 2/3rds of the distance between the MAX and MIN marks on the dipstick. Since the volume between MAX and MIN is 1.5 litres, then level reduction is 0.5 litres but that is starting from MAX.
My level started about 0.6 litres above MAX, so they reduced my level by about 1.1 litres. However, by careful measurement (by photographing the dipstick and measuring the image) I found that Volvo didn't reduce the down to 67% of the Max Min range but to 52%. Incompetent of them!
With my original oil level being 0.6 litre above MAX then the dilution of my lube oil with diesel fuel has been 11.6%. But should it fill again to the original level above MAX, then, as someone else pointed out, this would be a dilution on a dilution. In my case that would mean a dilution rate of around 23.7%.
I have been treated the same appalling way by Volvo. Forgive my immodesty. I am a Consulting Engineer. My educational and professional credentials are EurIng, CEng, BSc, PhD, FIMechE, FIOA, MEWI. I have also spent part of my career in the Oil Industry. The Engineering consultancy I ran (now retired) had a worldwide reputation for designing automotive fuel systems, so I have as much if not more so than anyone in Volvo UK.
I am new to this forum so I will keep this brief in case I overrun some word limit.
The reassurance from Castrol is without foundation. The protestation that Volvo would not risk their reputation by saving a buck is not credible. Remember the Toyota debacle. Castrol is s business partner of Volvo, so they are not independent, indeed they could be said to have a conflict of interest, theirs with our's.
I took a sample of my lube oil and had it analysed by one of the leading authorities in the country. They analyse oil from major industrial plant and the owners of these multi-million pound plant assets trust and act on their recommendations.
Two extracts from the analysts report said:
“Currently viscosity of the oil in use is equivalent to an SAE20 oil, rather than the SAE30 that it should be. This would offer reduced protection from wear and demands attention. ……….
The condition of the oil is unacceptable for continued use. Our recommendation is to rectify the underlying fault and to change the oil before any wear can occur.”
There are also wear particles present.
I will be sending the findings of the oil analysis to my dealer tomorrow to put them and Volvo on notice that they are now responsible for the integrity of my engine, because they are now in possession of ‘material knowledge’ about this problem. If they choose to continue to ignore me (or us) then legal damages would ensue if the engine is damaged.
There is more to tell but I will stop there in case my message is too large and fails to be accepted. WATCH THIS SPACE.
The Doc

[Chauffeurdude]

Nice one!! So we were right this is doing our engines no good whatsoever!! Well done that man

[The Doc]

Is it possible to post .jpg files here?
If so then I can share with you guys
(a) images of the oil analysis report,
(b) show you how a way in which you can measure the oil level accurately and
(c) images of extracts from the owners handbook to turn Volvo's information back on themselves.
This information exhorts us to use only the specified super duper grade of oil for fear of dire consequences for our engines but Volvo allow themselves to turn this super duper oil into a diesel and lube oil cocktail, assuring us that this will not be a problem.
For the record the identification spec' of the oil is:
"CASTROL 0W/30 SLX Professional Longtec Volvo Cars A5/B5 - Full Synthetic
18,000 miles between services."
I checked the Castrol website about this fantastic "18,000 mile between services lube oil product" and it says nothing about the benefits to be derived from it being diluted 10% to 20% with diesel fuel oil.

The Technical Manager in Castrol has said:

"I can understand your concern regarding your Volvo, however, it is
common for there to be dilution of the engine oil with diesel fuel to
quite high levels, [HE DIDN'T DEFINE WHAT A HIGH LEVEL WAS] especially in modern diesel engines fitted with diesel particulate filters, and modern oils are designed to cope with this.

It very much depends on the engine design as to what is a safe level of
diesel dilution, some engines can be sensitive to 10%, whereas we've
seen others running quite happily with 20% and even more on our test
beds. If Volvo feel that diesel dilution resulting in a 5mm increase in
oil level is safe, then that judgement will be based on their knowledge
of their engines from hundreds of hours of development testing, so you
can take some comfort from that. It would not be in their interest to
benefit from a short term cost saving by not changing the oil, compared
to the reputational damage if any number of these vehicles subsequently
suffer from premature failure.

I hope this answers your query, please contact us again if you require
any further information."

I am doing a dissecting analysis of this gentleman's response to my enquiry. But I also believe a similar answer was given to an enquiry by the Forum.
The Castrol Tech Manager says: "If Volvo feel that diesel dilution resulting in a 5mm increase in oil level is safe, ..... blah blah blah." The problem with his analysis is that the increase in level is not 5mm but it was 24.7mm above MAX.
The reduction in level to 67% on the dip stick is a distance on the dip stick of 28.9mm, so what faith can we place in his judgement now he has made that simple and fundamental mistake?
It is interesting that he is confident that Volvo will have made their "It's OK lads" statement based on hundreds of hours of development testing ....". If that is the case then what is Volvo's "Date of Knowledge" of this problem? The date of knowledge is the date from which all liability and damages are calculated.

The man from Castrol goes on to say:
"It would not be in their interest to benefit from a short term cost saving by not changing the oil, compared to the reputational damage if any number of these vehicles subsequently suffer from premature failure."
A short term benefit implies a small amount of money but if these all the particular vehicles worldwide had to have their oil changed every 1500 miles then this would be a galactic sum of money. However, you need to remember that Castrol = BP and Volvo = Ford.

The inability of BP to properly evaluate ****-ups and resolved is now legendary considering the disaster that is unfolding in the Gulf of Mexico.
Why Ford, the owners of Volvo?
Put this link into your browser and see how big business deals with their reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto
Ford calculated it was cheaper to pay out when people died than to pay for a redesign. Never mind the moral issues, it is only money. Until the courts issued punitive damages. I have great faith in Courts to get these guys sorted all they need is the evidence. That is where you and I come into the equation.

[TiredGeek]

So now we know our engines are in danger.
But how many of us have actually had the oil level rise? Is this relatively isolated or very common?

My car has a pretty hard life: wifey uses it daily for a 7 mile commute, so 14 miles a day 5 days a week, then once a month it gets a hard 500 mile run, without a stop usually, sits for two days then runs back home.
OK, the long run at ~3000rpm probably does it the world of good with the "Italian tune" effect, but it's never used any oil and it's never gained any either.
Once in the last 3 years it flagged "DFP full" and I took it for a nice hour long drive @ ~70mph and that cleared that. Another time it skipped the warning completely and went straight to "Engine System Service Required", but I checked online and some people said this was another sign of DPF full, so I took it for a gentle drive (just in case it was something more serious) and it cleared and hasn't come back. Had my codes read and there was nothing significant there either.

I'd really like to know what Volvo have just done to my car. One of the things I've always done is check the fluids regularly, and I'm one for preventative maintenance, I don't want this thing to break down on me miles from anywhere. I know my oil is filled to the max mark on the dipstick and no further, 'cos I do it myself. Then it's checked weekly. I've never seen it change in either direction, so I reckon I'm not affected.

Just how many of us have had an issue? It might put our minds at rest to have a rough idea of how many here are affected, or we can be extra carefull if it turns out to be a big problem.
Personally I'm gonna drop the oil @ 6k now instead of the 9k I have been doing, if I am getting diesel in there this will minimise the effects.

For the record mine's an '07 XC70 D5 (185) 6sp manual. ~ 39k miles.

[The Doc]

Dear TiredGeek, if you haven't got the diesel in lube oil problem then that's fine. But the issue being discussed here is not a gripe by a couple of over zealous forum members. Remember that Volvo has issued a safety recall. They don't do that as a consequence of a few disgruntled customers.
You ask: "Is this relatively isolated or very common?"
My guess is that the same problem has been found by at least hundreds of customers AND they have found a possible underlying causal factor which worries them, or they would not have issued the recall.

As for your routinely changing at at 6000 miles instead of your usual 9000 miles, I am confused. Are you not using the 18,000 mile between service recommended lube oil? If you are, then what is your logic for increasing the oil change frequency. The cost of the oil alone is circa £75.

The fact that you do not have the problem could be more, rather than less worrying for the rest of us who do have the problem because it could mean that there is an indeterminacy in the cause of the problem. Such things would tend to make the problem more difficult to diagnose and fix. My objective is to help (make) Volvo concentrate on a long term solution, not to manage it by my changing the oil at every whip stitch.
I bought this particular car against a "trade description". One aspect of that is an 18,000 mile service interval. This implies low cost and low environmental impact. If that now drops to 9,000 or even 6,000 that would mean they have misrepresented their vehicle.
I also bought it against another environmental factor of mpg. They said 45 cobined. I am lucky if I get 33 on a long run. I am not heavy booted.

[Bill_56]

Welcome, TheDoc, and many thanks for that explanation.

One aspect I'd like to clarify is the recurring issue of some owners being unaffected, depending perhaps on usage habits. Personally, I have seen no significant oil-level rise. But I currently use the car for 100 miles round-trip commute daily. I may choose soon to retire from work, or to get a more local job, and I don't think it's reasonable I should be forced to change my car if/when that happens.

I mentioned much earlier, I have already contacted BBC watchdog. I have not heard back. I know that Watchdog tend to only react if they receive multiple complaints from different people... it's quite easy, you can fill out a web form online, or send them an email. I won't quote the email address as I think that's bad form on forums, but it's easy to find on the BBC website.

[TiredGeek]

Doc, please don't take my post the wrong way: I was not trying to say that it is a few people griping, I agree this is a great issue and I fully agree with your point of view. You have a very good point about the recall, I hadn't considered that, but what I was trying to get at is a straw poll of the number of forum members who are affected and then see if we can spot a causal trend, and thus be able to assess the likelyhood of our being affected.


Yep, I use the 18k oil, my reason for changing it at a lower mileage than they say is: 1/ I know how my car is driven, 2/ I don't trust what Volvo say (once it's out of warranty it's not their problem), 3/ it's bloody expensive to replace the engine if it blows up & 4/ I DON'T TRUST WHAT VOLVO SAY.

Volvo say the oil will last 18000 miles or one year, Castrol agree, but once the car has done 3 years / 60,000 miles they don't care (In fact, it's in their interest for it to fail).
I don't want to have to spend out on a new engine @ 120k, oil, even @ 6k, in my view is cheapish insurance. £75 twice a year isn't that much (and if you buy your oil off eBay it's ~£50).
My car does a fair bit of round town and doesn't get fully warm on those runs. Then it gets thrashed for a thousand miles. Both are not exactly easy on the engine / oil.

Volvo say the automatic gear oil in the autobox is "good for the life of the car" and doesn't need changing. A simple search on the US XC70 forum will show how good that advice is: it seems most cars lose the 'box before 150k. Nicely out of warranty, but leaving the owner to pick up a bill for $3000 or more. Change the oil every 30-50k, they run pretty much for ever.
I bought manual for this very reason. Then changed it's oil @ 30k, and will continue to do so for a long as I own it.

Yes, Volvo know about this problem, yes it's damaging our engines, they should sort it out. We all know they won't though. Their lawyers will argue the recall is an appropriate reponse and Volvo have done their bit. You can argue they have misrepresented the car, on many fronts, but you're going to get nowhere.
It's gonna cost an individual a whole lot more money to fight their lawyers through the courts, and risk losing, than just paying out for a new engine in the first place.

Frankly I think we're buggered unless some trade body / government agency get involved, and I can't see that happening.......

[Bill_56]

Originally Posted by TiredGeek

Volvo say the oil will last 18000 miles or one year, Castrol agree, but once the car has done 3 years / 60,000 miles they don't care (In fact, it's in their interest for it to fail).

Geek, if I understand Doc correctly, if we follow in his footsteps (oil analysis and letter to dealer), then the warranty period becomes irrelevant. We'd not be claiming under warranty, we'd be suing the Dealer for negligence at service-time.

If the dealers continue to adhere to the service schedule, despite the fact that they know full well (from the oil analysis) that the Volvo schedule may cause engine damage, then they (the dealers) must surely accept liability for the damage if/when it happens. If they won't accept liability, then the courts should be able to force them to do so...