Heater Matrix leak?

[boggymarsh]

Today whilst giving the car a spring clean I found the passenger footwell damp underneath the rubber mat I have fitted. I used some kitchen paper to absorb what I could but as I ran my fingers through the carpet I noticed that there was an oily feel to it suggesting that this was coolant. Having searched through the threads I am certain that I am looking at a failing heater matrix or associated pipework.

I have stuck my head inside the footwell and have found a feint trace of bluey green gloop running down what I can only describe as a light brown semi- transparent "container" to which two shiney metal pipes fit. These pipes have what appear to be circlips holding them into this container. The leak does not appear to be coming from the pipe inlets but lower down where a the container is screwed to a plastic mounting.

Looking at the amount of moisture in the carpet would suggest that this leak has been going for some time but having wiped every thing clean and had the engine running for half an hour or so with the heater on nothing has shown up. Even after a drive out there has been nothing.

So, is this likely to get worse? On a "X" plated car is the cost of a new matrix making the car "beyond economical repair"?

[chiptivo]

Today whilst giving the car a spring clean I found the passenger footwell damp underneath the rubber mat I have fitted. I used some kitchen paper to absorb what I could but as I ran my fingers through the carpet I noticed that there was an oily feel to it suggesting that this was coolant. Having searched through the threads I am certain that I am looking at a failing heater matrix or associated pipework.

I have stuck my head inside the footwell and have found a feint trace of bluey green gloop running down what I can only describe as a light brown semi- transparent "container" to which two shiney metal pipes fit. These pipes have what appear to be circlips holding them into this container. The leak does not appear to be coming from the pipe inlets but lower down where a the container is screwed to a plastic mounting.

Looking at the amount of moisture in the carpet would suggest that this leak has been going for some time but having wiped every thing clean and had the engine running for half an hour or so with the heater on nothing has shown up. Even after a drive out there has been nothing.

So, is this likely to get worse? On a "X" plated car is the cost of a new matrix making the car "beyond economical repair"?


Common problem, and some new rubber O rings will fix it for a couple of quid.

2 Secs, and I will find a tutorial.

Basically the corrosive coolant corrodes the rubber O rings over time.

May give you an idea, Volvo do a O ring kit.
http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/35445-heater-hoses-and-o-ring-kits/

Similar issues.
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=109682

Hopefully you will not have to replace the matrix...
http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/1111-v70-p2-heater-matrix-replacement/
Scary stuff..

[boggymarsh]

Thank you.

Erm... not so sure I want to be stripping the whole car down! That is way too much for me.

I like the idea that it may just be some perished "O" rings and reckon that I could do that. How much coolant am I likely to to lose when I pop these pipes out of the matrix? Is it a full drain down of the coolant system?

[princepugh]

You'll not actually lose that much - you can use an empty can and/or piece of drain pipe to protect the carpet etc.

I didn't read the full T5D5 'replacement' article but I have read that it is possible to butcher the pollen filter housing to make the job a whole lot easier (and cheaper!), then repair the repair the housing with araldite. If the matrix is knacked, then this approach would certainly be worth researching.

Best of luck.

[chiptivo]

You'll not actually lose that much - you can use an empty can and/or piece of drain pipe to protect the carpet etc.

I didn't read the full T5D5 'replacement' article but I have read that it is possible to butcher the pollen filter housing to make the job a whole lot easier (and cheaper!), then repair the repair the housing with araldite. If the matrix is knacked, then this approach would certainly be worth researching.

Best of luck.

Funny you mention that. My Recon was leaking as the matrix was knackered on my Astra company car.
They initially thought they would have to take the dash out, but the part came with modification instructions which basically meant they only had to take the glove compartment out, then use a hacksaw blade to chop a chunk of plastic off to get to the matrix.

I remember a load of plastic shavings all over the foot well when I picked it up.

[M3ODQ]

Im kind of embarrased I didn't take pictures.. but here goes.
Last summer I filled the coolant system with water.
This winter it froze and cracked the heater matrix.
I HAD to repair the car on a snow covered driveway and needed the car for work.

I took the glovebox out, which left a rectangular hole where it used to be. The lower part of the "rectangle" is simply a strip of plastic, that the lower half of the glovebox screws to.

That strip of plastic is the only thing that stops the matrix from coming out.

Out came the angle grinder and 5 minutes later I had a knackered matrix on the workshop bench.

When you replace the glovebox, the missing strip of plastic is not visable and I think the glovebox is rigid enough to survive without.

Try shielding the fins of the matrix with a slip of cardboard while pulling it out - pushing back in.

By the way, I had to take out my front and rear seats so the carpets could be removed, hosed down and rinsed out! It was an inch deep with coolant in the floorwell!

Needs must!

Tip of the day: fill the coolant system with coolant (contains antifreeze) and NOT with water!

[boggymarsh]

Well I have finally found that it is the seal on the lower of the two pipes going into the matrix, so today looks as if it will be a Volvo day! I have been to the dealer and bought the new rings and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't cost a fortune. I am hoping that this will be a pretty simple job but we will see... the sun is out, everyone else will be out at work so no reason for being disturbed, just man and his Volvo! Bliss!

[boggymarsh]

Well I can't honestly say that this was not the easiest of jobs but that is mainly down to the fact that the work area is somewhat confined!
First the lower trim from around the centre console needs to be popped out, followed by the trim underneath the glove box, followed by the removal of the glove box. Be careful when removing the glove box stay as the end that fits onto the bulkhead is prone to damge when you prize it off the ball! Oh don't forget to disconect the glove box light.

Once the glove box is out of the way you can can gain access to the two pipes going into the matrix. There is not much movement as these are alloy pipes and as I found the "c" clip for the lower pipe cann be removed without undoing and removing the heater flap control module that is situated right in front of it. Two screws and a disconnection of the power source, pop of the control arm at the back and away it comes.

The heater matrix can now be pulled out about an inch giving enough room to deal with the "c" clips. Do the bottom one first as this will allow the pipe to be moved out of the way of the top one. The "c" clips are of a fairly lightweight alloy and can be bent quite easily if not careful.
** IT IS IMPORTANT to remember that as soon as the bottom pipe is disturbed you will get a rush of coolant - a suitably placed black plastic sack will catch all of the fluid, which I saved and put back in the expansion bottle once the "O" rings had been changed. I guess a good litre came out and it left the expansion bottle empty. I had to prize the old "O" ring out of the heater matrix housing and found both to be almost flat through compression and hard to the touch, not nice and round and flexible like the new ones. I slipped the new ones over the end of the alloy pipes before inserting them back into the matrix. This is where the fun starts because of the newness of the rings they are a bugger to compress and they need to be compressed so that the "c" clips can be pushed back in. Needless to say the air was quite blue (good job all my neighbours are deaf!) but I did get there in the end... a little tip is to use a long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver to rest on the bezzle on the alloy pipe and then with a hammer tap gently until the pipe sits nice and snug in the matrix housing. The "c" clips then are relatively easy to put back in (!!??)

Once both pipes are secured the heater matix can then be reseated in its housing, the coolant topped back up and the engine started to get it circulated. I did this until the engine reached normal running temperature. Check for leaks before replacing all the bits and pieces.

This is just a short write-up and thinking about it I should have taken some pictures for the forum - sorry I didn't. This is not a five minute job, it's not hard just a PITA because of where it is situated! Took me about and hour and a half - I am no mechanic, just someone who gives things a go!

Anyway the result is that I now have no leaks and I am a happy man! :-)

[chiptivo]

Well played, glad it all worked ok.

Have not had the misfortune of this happening yet, but as your not the only one, I suspect it may come up in future. Especially as you described the degradation of the old O rings.

How much was the kit from volvo, and do you have a part number???

[Barnsley-Bill]

This is how I did my Heater matrix.

Remove the glove box and cut the plastic strip 6", that runs under the glove box.

then remove both water pipes from the bulk head By twisting the collars at the end of the pipes anti clock wise, then the pipes should pull off.
Then remove the two bolts /metal plate/rubber sealing, this allows the water pipes to move.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/1.jpg

Then remove the torx screw holding the heater matrix in place

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/2.jpg

I then cut out a piece of the the pollen filter box

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/3.jpg

This image shows how much you need to cut out before the matrix will come out.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/4-1.jpg

I Then pulled out the clips holding the water pipes to the matrix and moved out of the way.
Then I pulled out the old matrix.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/5.jpg

and once it was out I started to fit the new one.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/6.jpg

You have to hold the matrix out about 2" before fitting the water pipes back on as the housing gets in the way of fitting the water pipe clips on.
It took a bit of shoving and swearing before I did it, but after a while both clips were in place :).
I then fitted the screw holding the matrix in place and started to glue the piece of the pollen filter box that I cut out, for this I used a glue gun.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/7.jpg

Once it was dry I made sure it was sealed and then started at the bulkhead fitting the water pipes back on.
Then its just a case of re filling with Volvo coolant and water 50/50 mix and let the engine run till its warm to get rid of any trapped air.

Doing the job this way takes about 3 hours max, instead of the 2 days removing all the dash board and a massive bill from the dealers.

Thanks

[chiptivo]

Brill pictures BTW. The dashboard removal on the other post looks shocking..

[Lozza]

Thanks for posting those photos, interesting to see how much of the pollen filter housing requires 'removal' before the matrix can be replaced.

A Dremel with a cutting wheel would slice quite nicely through that housing.

Whilst I'm not normally a fan of short-cuts, normally being quite happy and prepared to remove items 'in the way' to complete a job, the dash removal method is very involved, time consuming and you could well end up with other issues relating to items that have been disturbed in the process.

A hot glue gun is a great tool to have in your inventory!

Nice one.

[ovlov girl]

Hello,

I have just been reading a number of posts about heating matrix breaking down and you guessed it. I recently experienced a steam circulating in the car, I noticed that the heating guage is through the roof so turned off the engine immediatley, called the AA and waited for her to cool down and toped up the water.

In the meantime (this is funny bit) I filled the coolent box with 4 watering cans worth of water and just could not fill the coolent box. A
short time latter the bottom of my car was full of coolent.

The AA came to my rescue and confirmed that there was a leak in the heater matrix, but pressure tested it am phew all is well with the engine. They did a tempoary bypass so I could take it to the garage. She dove there like a dream.

I was a bit annoyed as I had paid for a new Heating Matrix to be fitted by this garage 6 months ago (late Oct last year). I rang the garage and they appologiesed and said that they would fix the problem under warentee for free.

I rang the garage today and they said that theheating Matrix had cracked, and they did not know why it had cracked. They asked me if the car had over heated before and I confirmed that it had not. They said that there must be a build up of pressure on the engine to cause the crack and they would pressure test it and it may need a new head gasket.

I replyed saying that the AA had already pressure tested the V70 for excessive pressure build up and confirmed in writing that she is fine and there was no engine damage. They even left her running for 45 minuites checking the engine.

The garage said that the AA can't pressure test the vechile? Even though I gave him a copy of the AA breakdown report that confirmed that this had been done.

Can I please have some advice?
[B]What would cause a reasonably new heater matrix to crack?
Could it have been a faulty heater matrix?
Is it possible that they did not connect it up properly?
And if so how will I know?[

I just want to do my best to ensure that my garage is treating me fairly.

Thank you

[M3ODQ]

Build up of pressure from engine would happen if the cylinder head gasket had failed. This is easy to check with a simple compression test.

The reason mine cracked was because I had filled the coolant system with 100% water. The cold weather made it freeze and thus expand. Its this expansion that caused my matrix to fail.

[Chesterman]

I am no mechanic but I have no doubt that the AA can indeed carry out a compression test. Having a garage rubbish the AA in that way would make me suspect the garage were not up to the mark. Just my opinion.

[60041]

I am no mechanic but I have no doubt that the AA can indeed carry out a compression test. Having a garage rubbish the AA in that way would make me suspect the garage were not up to the mark. Just my opinion.

Of course the AA can carry out a pressure test. Once the leaking heater was bypassed, they would simply attach the pressure testing gear to the radiator header tank and check for pressure build up and the presence of exhaust gasses in the cooling system.
The fact that you drove the car without problems after the heater was disconnected would suggest that there is not a problem with the engine.
A failed heater matrix could be the result of freezing during the winter, if they had not put anti-freexe in the coolant, but it would have been obvious immediately, so I would suspect either poor quality workmanship or poor quality parts.
Bad workmanship will be difficult to prove if the AA bypassed it by removing the connections under the dash, but if they did it under the bonnet you might stand a chance although, if the garage has been in today, it may now be your word against theirs.
Either way though, you should have a valid warranty claim as the original repair was only 6 months ago: if the garage are awkward go to Trading Standards.

[Jim314]

I'm sure the cap on the coolant reservoir has a pressure release valve. The cap on my reservoir reads 150 kPa (22 psi) in small raised letters on the edge. This is higher than I would expect it to be rated at--I'd expect ~100 kPa or 15 psi--, but presumably all the components of the cooling system are rated to withstand this pressure.

[M3ODQ]

Hello,

I have just been reading a number of posts about heating matrix breaking down and you guessed it. I recently experienced a steam circulating in the car, I noticed that the heating guage is through the roof so turned off the engine immediatley, called the AA and waited for her to cool down and toped up the water.


Can I please have some advice?
[B]What would cause a reasonably new heater matrix to crack?
Could it have been a faulty heater matrix?
Is it possible that they did not connect it up properly?
And if so how will I know?[

I just want to do my best to ensure that my garage is treating me fairly.

Thank you

Did you get this sorted in the end?

[AUS T5]

[QUOTE=Barnsley-Bill;864685]This is how I did my Heater matrix.

Barnsley Bill, your a hero mate, below is my story I posted on a couple of other forums before I found your post, not a lot of info on these models out there yet.......

[Anyone had to change the heater core matrix in a 2001 P2 V70 T5 ? I had my car in for a general service the other day with my Indie shop and they pointed out that there was some very slight leakage of fluid down the inside left foot well. (this is a RHD car) They offered to change it but I said no, and I thought I would do it myself and save some cash, my 850 was easy so this should be too no!? I ordered the new core from IPD and yesterday got stuck in to it. I removed the the lower fascia panels, pulled up the carpet and then began to realise, this was different, very different, the positioning of the core was way up behind the stereo system, it turns out these P2's have a totally different set up. I thought I had researched enough, I had found a good "how to do it" post on Volvospeed for a V70 core change but it was for the earlier model, dam, what a fool I was, never realised. So, after further research I finally found this on a UK forum http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/1111-v70-p ... placement/ Wow, what a task, according to this guy you have to virtually dismantle the whole interior of the car, which is way out of my league so it looks like a big hefty bill from my Volvo garage to sort this out. I did wonder if it was just the O rings that are leaking and if I could possibly change those without having to do the major dismantle, I think if I remove the glove box (remember this is a RHD car) I might be able to get to the pipes, not sure though and anyway, if the O rings are gone, then I guess the core wont be far off failing as well. At the moment the leak is very slight, so carpets are not wet, just the odd drip occasionally, very minimal. Anyone else had this problem? is there another way to get round this, could it possibly be something else ]

OK, now with renewed enthusiasm, it's the Barnsley Bill fix in the next few days for me, thanks again for taking the trouble to post, especially the good photo's ;)

[AUS T5]

Since my last post I managed to break a rib whilst flailing around in the foot well on the door sill. So I just changed the O rings and left the matrix for another day and so far no leaks, so maybe that's all that was needed, time will tell

[RM955I]

I've just done this - it's not technically hard but it's a complete pig of a job due to limited access and working space. I went at it with an open mind but in practice the only way is as per Barnsley-Bill

At one point I thought about going at it from the other end - removing the various flaps, motors and levers from the driver's end and sliding it in that way but decided against it. It has taken me 3 hours and is not finished - the most difficult part is getting the C clips back in as (a) the metal pipes have to be perfectly lined-up with some lugs inside the matrix and, (b) the new o rings make it damned difficult to get the c clips over the metal flange especially given the limited access. I spent about and hour and a half (yes really) swearing profusely at the difficulty getting the damned metal pipes to sit in the matrix so I could get the C clips in as there is a limit to how much force I was prepared to use. In the end some appropriate grease over the flange and on the C clips helped no end.

Tomorrow will be a case of putting everything back together and Aralditing the cabin filter box back together - probably another hour or 90 minutes.

I'd say this is the only way to do it - no one will see the cut cabin filter box or the cut and repair to the lower part of the glovebox trim that also needs removing.

This isn't a job you can rush - I did a couple of 'test fits' using the old matrix to ensure that I knew exactly how I was going to position everything out of the way to avoid damaging the new one.

I am sure that some could do it quicker but with a delicate matrix slow n steady is the way.

[RM955I]

Minor update:

It's all done and there's a couple of learning points...

Don't be afraid to cut a larger chunk out of the airbox than you think you need - I was a little cautious which necessitated making a 2nd cut: it just makes gluing it all back together a little harder....so 'cut big'. Some Loctite or Araldite plastic epoxy gives a good strong join. Personally I preferred the Loctite as it cures quicker.

Note the lugs in the connectors and heater matrix - these have to be perfectly aligned for the connectors to seat properly. I also reversed the lower c clip as it as easier to get in. A bit of grease (as previously said) helps the c clips ease in.

Be careful of the metal control arm from the passenger heater control motor flap - I wasn't :-( No biggie in itself but I had to then glue a washer in place and use a small nut and bolt to replace a broken pivot joint. That was just an added pain but it all works as it should.

A couple of mending plates and small nuts and bolts makes the portion of the lower dash under the glovebox rigid.

The job has taken me 3 days on and off.....that sounds a lot because it's 3 part days, and I had to glue more than necessary due to cutting too small the first time. A lot of the time was allowing the epoxy to cure. You could do the job in half a day and allow the epoxy to cure overnight before reassembly. The biggest time waster was getting the pipes seated in the matrix.

This has cost me 28 quid for a matrix (which came with o rings) plus a fiver for some genuine Volvo o rings (I wasn't expecting the replacement to come with o rings) and another fiver for the epoxy.

No one can see any of the 'bodgery' once it's all back together so don't be afraid to get cutting. I hated the idea of cutting the airbox but it's a no-brainer.....under 40 quid, all done and no need to remove the entire dash.

[MickyG1982]

Well I just bought me a new heater core too, gonna follow the guide to the letter!

[excalibur1]

This is how I did my Heater matrix.

Remove the glove box and cut the plastic strip 6", that runs under the glove box.

then remove both water pipes from the bulk head By twisting the collars at the end of the pipes anti clock wise, then the pipes should pull off.
Then remove the two bolts /metal plate/rubber sealing, this allows the water pipes to move.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/1.jpg

Then remove the torx screw holding the heater matrix in place
Will
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/2.jpg

I then cut out a piece of the the pollen filter box

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/3.jpg

This image shows how much you need to cut out before the matrix will come out.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/4-1.jpg

I Then pulled out the clips holding the water pipes to the matrix and moved out of the way.
Then I pulled out the old matrix.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/5.jpg

and once it was out I started to fit the new one.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/6.jpg

You have to hold the matrix out about 2" before fitting the water pipes back on as the housing gets in the way of fitting the water pipe clips on.
It took a bit of shoving and swearing before I did it, but after a while both clips were in place :).
I then fitted the screw holding the matrix in place and started to glue the piece of the pollen filter box that I cut out, for this I used a glue gun.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/k3-dude/P2%20Heater%20Maritix/7.jpg

Once it was dry I made sure it was sealed and then started at the bulkhead fitting the water pipes back on.
Then its just a case of re filling with Volvo coolant and water 50/50 mix and let the engine run till its warm to get rid of any trapped air.

Doing the job this way takes about 3 hours max, instead of the 2 days removing all the dash board and a massive bill from the dealers.

Thanks

Will have a go with it.Many thanks.

[calumscott]

This is how I did my Heater matrix.

-snip-

Doing the job this way takes about 3 hours max, instead of the 2 days removing all the dash board and a massive bill from the dealers.



Due to the fact that the O rings that come with the replacement are too thin, I took a bit longer than 3 hours as I had to find and refit the old ones.

But massive thanks for the guide, I now have a nice toasty warm S60!

[poopbunny]

Thanks all to those who contributed to this topic particularly Barnsley Bill for the pictures.

Initially I thought I could undo the pipes then pull the heater core thru the driver's side after cutting the tabs. Do the same for the raplacement core then repair the tabs with a plastic repair kit. Needless to say, I wasted time trying to remove, then replace the brake switch + its impossible to remove the control module for the climate unit on the driver's side. So I used this method.

The leak was so bad not only was the carpet drenched but also beneath the carpet, I think I spent more time on the clean up.

Surprisingly the clips were not as difficult to remove and replace. There was also no need to heat the o-rings.

Replacement Parts
- Behr OE grade heater core (came supplied with the foam insulators)
- O-rings x2 (the old ones don't look too bad, they were replaced about 8 years ago when it started leaking, back then it was only the o-ring, replaced them anyway)
- Clips x2 (the old ones were suprisingly not deformed, used new ones anyway)

What made the job easy was
- Molykote O-ring grease (this should extend the life of the o-ring, also made the pipe easier to install, help seal)
- C spanner to help push the clip in.

Before I used the grease, I found the pipe would not really go in that deep, I suspect this is the frustration of many who performed this task. Once the grease was applied the pipe went in deep enough for a generous gap to appear and therefore easier to push the clips in.

Below are some pictures

Hole Cut
I did not find it necessary to cut out the entire middle section of the bottom grovebox frame, Just cutting one end was ok, as it is plastic and bends easily enough to perform the task (also easier to repair later by fastening it with a couple of screws and a small plate, or some other fastener).
http://i64.tinypic.com/5fqjgm.jpg

This is my cut portion

http://i63.tinypic.com/15n3wa9.jpg

C Spanner - helped a lot to push the clips in
http://i65.tinypic.com/2uiantc.jpg

My repaired filter housing.
I just used fabric reinforced Duct Tape
http://i66.tinypic.com/iykccy.jpg