36 volt systems what are the pros and cons

[4 forty]

having paid a visit to a reputable engine tuner this week,he told me that within the next two years, all new cars would have a 36 volt system, as the present 12 volt system can not cope with all the electical load of all the accesories now being fitted.
i know hgv,s have a 24 volt system, but what will the drawbacks be to car owners i wonder?
comments please on this topic, no doubt there will be a good response.
regards
paul

[pettaw]

Sounds a bit weird, means that the batteries would have to be huge, or else with very small cells. Could make sense I suppose, 'cos its not the low voltage that is the prob with car electrics, its the nasty thing voltage drop and I suppose that a higher voltage would be less sensitive to voltage drop.

Andy

[Peter Milnes]

Not to mention less current for the same power, lower rated fuses and relays, motors etc. Just think, starting your car with about 75Amps instead of 300Amps plus!!

All the best, Peter.

[foggyjames]

If they make it run on 240v, that would slove so many accessory problems :) no more car fridges, etc....and I could plug both my 2.5kW power amps straight in instead of having to buy a 12v car amp...!

ok, so it would still need inverting....and the battery would be enormous....but its a nice idea, eh?

cheers

James

[Peter Milnes]

They used to do something similar to your proposal. They called them tramcars and trolleybuses.

All the best, Peter.

[Simon Linton]

They still do, Peter - they call them diesel-electric locomotives

[foggyjames]

Except that they have 6000-odd HP, and run at upto 100kV!

cheers

James

[Simon Linton]

...well, nobody's perfect...

[pettaw]

Yeah and 0-60 in about 10 minutes, top of 125 mph though LOL

Andy


Seriously though, don't some cars have this facility already, a low current 240V supply or am I dreaming?

[foggyjames]

Yeah - I think youre right. My mates ford galaxy has a pair of (12v) cigar lighter sockets in the back, but im sure that some others have 240v feeds.

cheers

James

[noiseboy]

You can buy a 240v Invertor at halfords for a few quid.

It'll give you 240V AC at about 3A from a 12V DC Supply.

Phil :-)

[pettaw]

I knew someone would know :)

Andy

[4 forty]

i read all your replies with interest, but the point i am making is the additional cost to both car owners, and workshops.
the diy man will have to buy a new battery charger for a start, all diagnostic equipment will have to be compliable with 36 volts, is this also going to be used for an exuse to hype up the prices of alternators, starter motors, voltage regulators, etc.
all caravans, trailers etc will have to have 36 volt bulbs fitted, a big spin off for the bulb manufacturers!

[foggyjames]

Indeed - we have a 150w invertor for emergencies on-site, and for running a small PC off the car :)

James

[sheerwater]

Bulb manufacturers wont be the only ones!! All current cars will be scrap/obsolete so no popping down to your local scrappy for bits to fit!!
Its being going like this for some time as the last time I bought an indicator bulb they had to look up the configuration of the pins in the book first!!! It goes back to some of my previous postings. You will soon be tied to the dealer, the chances of getting the car fixed at the side of the road will be nil and hours will be wasted while the car is dragged off to a dealer who of course will be shut or on holiday. It will be obligatory to have roadside rescue etc.etc. Now thet Hyundai have the 5 year warranty its going to be Buy it Drive it and Scrap it. Interestingly enough the Hyundai warranty should mean that the first 2 MOTs are passed F.O.C. Cheers Nigel

[George Holmer]

This is absolutely correct. My old grandmother used one of those hand driven type writers. If it stopped working, she would simply bang on a little bit and it would work just fine. A couple of screwdrivers would sort out anything serious. Compare that to a computer today where you pay (as a company) thousands of pounds a year for the maintenance contracts to have simple things done like replacing faulty RAM.

George

'87 745 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler
'88 745 Turbo Intercooler

[pettaw]

ah yes but without the damn things we wouldn't have the sophisticated cars and this fabulous forum would we?

Andy

[George Holmer]

This is indeed true. This is an example of the two sides to everthing.

George

'87 745 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler
'88 745 Turbo Intercooler

[SG]

Actually the new battery systems will be 42V.

As someone has already stated, the main advantage is the reduction in current for the same amount of power. This allows smaller (and thus much lighter) gauge wire to be used throughout. I guess it will also allow more scope for the use of different rechargeable battery technologies.

The change has been planned for some time now so there's already quite a healthy support base. Do a search on Google for "42V Car Battery" and you'll see what I mean.

Scott

[sheerwater]

It makes you wonder why 6 then 12 volts were chosen for a car in the first place. Everything will go round in a circle eventually. its like train rail guages which ended up as the mysterious 4ft8 and a half inches even though other sizes were experimented with. I have got a feeling that some makes will be 12 or 24 or 36 or....... so that again only the exact part from the main dealer will fit. And another thing who will be the first to blow all their electrics giving somebody a jump start !!!!!! And what about your plug in adaptors for computers,phones etc. All obsolete as usual. Ho Hum. heers Nigel

[4 forty]

in reply to sheerwater [nigel] you have raised some very interesting points on this topic, some of which never crossed my mind. and as jimmy cricket would say, "theres more" !!

[sheerwater]

I think that there is lots more to come!!!!!! As an amateur computer builder it seems that car manufacturers are finally going the same way as the computer bods. Each upgrade requires new faster chips but these need faster boards , different memories, different voltages and different plugs for mouse,printer etc. Not to mention new software. The old stuff which in earlier days was transferable is now binned in total. (ok not all) The more I look at it the more I see the disposible car coming. It works great but costs a fortune to fix in the same way that we treat washing machines today. Cheers Nigel

[pettaw]

Yep, that's certainly true on the computer front, the only stuff kept from my original computer are the mouse keyboard and the floppy drive (about 10 years old now). Nowadays when your video breaks, you don't call out the repair man at 80 quid a throw, you buy a brand new one with the latest specs for 120 quid!!! Its almost the same with cars. The 'mechanics' don't really repair them anymore, they just fit new assemblies that have been pre-prepared on a big production line somewhere, trying to repair these things now you would need oscilloscopes and computers to work out which chip has blown.

Andy

[sheerwater]

Certainly true on the car engine front. I cant remember the last engine I rebuilt from complete stripdown. We used to do it quite regularly in the past as did most of my friends. Engines are far more reliable etc. but even reading through all the forums the trend is to replace with a scrappers unit or a fully recon unit. If manufacturers start to fit car specific bits i.e. 36 volts then the only alternative will be the local dealer. But is this a bad thing ? Do we want to spend all our time under a car instead of driving it!!!!! Cheers Nigel

[George Holmer]

Indeed, Nigel, if the car of tomorrow is as reliable as my computer and costs as little in relation to its performance, then I have no problem. However, if in the future they will still charge me 50 quid to fill up some power steering liqiud or similar, then having to go to the dealer no matter what will make me a very angry man.

George

'87 745 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler
'88 745 Turbo Intercooler

[sheerwater]

Hi George
Recent surveys still state that every single make and model of car needs fixing in the first year!!! How many recalls are there for ''thoroughly tested cars'' . I agree that if cars were very reliable things would be good but how many times have we all owned a 100% car? Bulb blown sir? Sorry we will have to tow you to the nearest garage which is now shut and wont reopen until after the bank holiday. A water pump on my 740 cost the AA over £700 is claims because the garage was shut for a bank holiday!!!
Many new cars are almost sealed with only holes for top ups. Audi as one example. Most fuel systems cannot be looked at by anything other than a computer. Great while they work but as the computer boys found standardisation of component fitting built a huge market and a huge choice. Their solution? Change the motherboard format every so often so the old bits would not fit. Seems car makers have learnt this as well.
Cheers Nigel