Anti yellow speed camera campaign.

[sheerwater]

Did anyone see that wonderful quote by the group who want speed cameras to be invisible? The wonderful statement was '' In no other area of criminal enforcement do criminals get warned that they might be procecuted'' DUH ? In no other area of criminal enforcement does a computerised robot automatically fine you either. Have they never seen shoplifting notices in shops? Have they never read signs on dog litter in parks? Have they never filled in a single form which states ''if you sign this , you sign to say the details are correct or you will be liable to procecution? (i.e. passport) It would appear that these people never get out into the real world so why are they so intent on getting the motorist? Cheers Nigel

[Paul Wildsmith]

I suppose you could take the speed limit signs themselves to be the warning?

[Networkguy]

Actually, I am tempted to agree with them.

After all, if they were not visable, then the drivers who slam all on when they see them would stop doing so (making the roads safer) and get the fine they deserve.

After all, there is not a single road where the limit is unclear so there is no excuse.

The phrase 'if you can't do the time then don't do the crime' comes to mind.

And for record, before anybody starts thinking I am not living in the real world, I drive 40k miles a year all over the UK and will openly admit to exceeding the speed limits in certain conditions but never speed in a built up area or through roadworks, not because of the speed limit but in the interests of the saftey of pedestrians and road workers.

If you want to speed (and hence break the law), then thats your choice but if you get caught and get fined (or worse), then the only person to blame is yourself. After all, nobody is forcing you to break the law are they?

[Mav_UK]

Actually seeing how most people drive I'm tempted to think the oposite here. Show the camera from a large distance away, people slow down in time for the camera, hide the camera, people see it at the last min and SLAM on go the brakes...... Just a thought.

On a sideline, I agree that the cameras are not causing the accidents poor driving is, BUT this highlights the fact hat cameras are not working! Someone does a dangerous stop, causes an accident further back. They get away and the camera has failed to make the roads safer. Someone sees a copper (even with a speed gun, although pref without....) slam on the brakes, and accident or not he can, and should be nicked.

Just thought it would be nice to give a point about why I hate cameras and not just flaming them.

Chat later

Stu

[sheerwater]

Hi,
Reading some of the above comments is interesting and it is always good to get lots of points of view. I will not put this on a personal note but anyone who drives 40k a year is not doing it in the Northampton area for sure. Even clear county routes are now being restricted to 40MPH and many town areas are 20MPH. That coupled with the deliberate delays in traffic light changing and the careful placing of pedestrian crossings (instead of overpasses) reducing Northampton to gridlock several times recently. As for the major roads i.e. motorways etc. you might be able to travel at 70 but the journey from Northampton to Watford (50 miles) took anything from 3 to 4 hours in the morning. I am not anti safety but anyone who has read the ABD website on www.abd.org.uk will see that speed is not the major factor in most accidents. One stretch of road ...a major route.. near Northampton is now reduced in the countryside to 40 MPH. Big signs state the number of accidents in the last 3 years. Who has had the accidents and why?. My wife travels this route every day. The accidents happened late at night or very early in the morning. Both times when the ''safety'' speed camera people were safely tucked up in bed. The vehicles were usually boy racer machines and of course once past the static cameras wrote themselves off. Speed limits will not stop this type of behaviour. Our estate is now 20MPH despite the fact that there are walkways for children to use. IN THE INTERESTS OF SAFETY the POLICE refused to stop double parking outside the local schools with the wonderful reason that as the parked cars blocked the road this meant that passing vehicles has to squeeze past slowly. Fair enough. Reasonable reason. Then one day a lovely little boy who refused to obey the school rules and had never had any road safety training (sic)
decided to leave the school by a prohibited route and ran between the parked cars and was hit by something that he could not have noticed ....a double decker bus. The safety people declared the estate a dangerous place as there had now been an accident and spent multi thousands making it safer. Safer against cars that is because buses,lorries,4 wheel drives and motorbikes are unaffected by the speed humps. So now you get slow cars and fast buses. They didnt stop the double parking because the safety people despite knowing that it is a proved hazard need accidents to prove the need for the measures.
The Government is well aware that road safety needs to be improved yet it has only itself to blame. It tests drivers ONCE in their lifetime. It allows anyone from 17 onwards to drive a car with untold power. It does not organise re-education or driver improvement courses on a volountary basis to help people. (it does if you are a very dangerous driver doing 31MPH in a 30 zone because it can charge horrendous fees for this by blackmail) I could go on for ever on this subject but I will leave you with one thought. When the world cup was being shown on television the road safety vans were kept off the road until later in the day so that the operators could watch the matches. So watching a football match is more important than road safety ? Was it that less motorists exceed speed limits because of foootball ? or was it that less revenue would be earnt? And for the record road deaths have actually gone UP in Northants since the introduction of safety measures when the trend for years had been a decline.

[Networkguy]

>I will not put
>this on a personal note but anyone who drives 40k a year is
>not doing it in the Northampton area for sure.

You would be surprised

>Even clear
>county routes are now being restricted to 40MPH

It's the same around here. Indeed one of the nice clear roads that I travelled on a regular basis whilst doing my RoADA training and is as safe as safe can be has just become a 40mph limit

>Who has had the accidents and why?.

Agreed. Actually, I spotted this in my local paper tonight. Look at the photo carefully and remember it is a 30mph limit. Now just how can you get this wrong (unless you are driving too fast of course).

http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12337139&method=full&siteid=50060

>Speed limits
>will not stop this type of behaviour.

That's the problem.

We know that a lot of these incidents happen because of somebody driving too fast for the conditions (which may still be within the speed limit).

Therefore something has to be done to slow down the traffic.

Speed cameras? The ABD wants them outlawed
Speed humps? Nobody wants them

So what to do?

[Mav_UK]

As you just said though cameras wouldn't catch the people within the limit, and with speed bumps you get 'surge' driving. hit the throttle after the bump, slam the brakes before the next etc etc etc.

The opnly way to go forward is to educate people more. Quite a few people I know really have no idea of the death and destruction they can cause with there car. They have no idea where to have fun and where to be serious. I may have a wonderful time in the countryside, but only if it's clear so I can see whats going on. Once I hit a town, village or city (no pun intended!) I slow down, 20 to 30 is plenty fast enough for most neighbourhoods.

And the educationshouldn't just be aimed at drivers, kids over here don't have any idea just how dangerous cars are, ALL my Dutch colleages just walse in front of cars as they know they are protected by law. This is stupid to say the least, they give me strange looks when I mention that they'll be ahppy when the're lying in hospital or worse knowing that the law will back them up.

And of course replacing the thousands of camera with thousands of police cars would also be quite a good idea....

Stu

[sheerwater]

A little story. Coming out of the pub one night (not driving I may add) a sierra came full belt up the road, over a speed bump, bounced off a car , bounced of another and there were 4 ''thugs'' inside. Hell bent on causing death and destruction. No police anywhere to be seen to catch this type of behaviour. So they steal a car, wreck it and nothing is done. Never.... But let us look at another situation and play the safety ''game''. My wife drives on a long main country road to work. Various points of double white lines etc. Now in the interest of safety the road is 40mph. Fair enough. Trouble is the word country i.e. non populated. There are tractors on the road doing 10mph. Nobody overtakes because of the double white lines, and the possibilities of being done by a camera. When overtaking you assess the situation, if clear you go for it full throttle. You dont look at a speedo to see if you are doing 30, or 40 etc. Once past you settle down again to a comfortable speed limit (ok within the law) Speed cameras do not discriminate so while overtaking you may safely exceed the limit!!! To overtake slowly causes the danger. A tractor slowly travelling causes a build up. Nobody ovrrtakes for fear of the cammeras. The third idiot back with the sports car knows where the camera is and goes for it. Then theres a danger. I know as this is the situation I found myself in the other day. To a point I agree that education is the key. Education for Everyone. Why does anyone need to drive high mileages in an era of email, fax machines , telephones, catalogues, or any other communication devices.
Two reasons. Because businesses will not change their business patterns and because humans by nature like to see other humans face to face and distrust other humans so much that they need to see events for themselves. Why must it always be the motorist who is educated. Have we reached a point as MAV says that it is only motorists who have any responsibility on a road. Are non motorist humans so irresponsible that they cannot understand that cars can hurt or kill you? They seem to learn that fire or electricity can very quickly or we would have hundreds of people sticking their fingers in electric sockets !!! If its an offence to drive on a pavement it should be an offence to walk on the road. It is an offence to walk on a railway line so people dont do it. Cheers Nige

[mike s]

If speed cameras were supposed to reduce injuries & accidents, then surely the place for them is in 30mph areas.
I live in a small village which is used as a "rat run" where a recent speed survey(no prosecutions)produced the following information:
51,700 vehicles in ONE direction in seven days(this is a "C" class road).
5,400+ vehicles EXCEEDING 45mph(30 mph limit).
Over 500 exceeding 60mph!
Result: speed humps at the entry to & exit from the 30 zone, giving a convenient place from which to accelerate like hell in either direction.
In the past 12 months this "rat run" has had one fatality & an average of one serious accident every fortnight & yet the only speed cameras I have seen pemanently installed in Cumbria are on the M6 Southbound just over Shap Summit!
These cameras have nothing to do with road safety as they do not discriminate between thoughtless use of speed & times when there is no other traffic on the road.
Rant over!

[sheerwater]

There are no rat runs !!!(I jest here having lived on one) There are only roads which are used because the Government has made the other roads so difficult to use that people are forced to use alternatives. The Government then spends thousands of pounds creating another little empire for traffic surveys, speed cameras, etc. instead of building a bypass around the nice little village. When driving in Germany or some other countries it is interesting to note that the main road steers well away from the towns and villages and each village spurs off the road in the same way that towns sput off motorways. Sensible as you have fast moving traffic well away from people so drivers are more inclined to drive slowly iin towns.

[Networkguy]

>The Government then spends
>thousands of pounds creating another little empire for
>traffic surveys, speed cameras, etc. instead of building a
>bypass around the nice little village.

But look what happens when somebody proposes a bypass round a nice little village.

The protestors come out in force claiming the damage it will cause to the local countryside etc and after years of debate, the thing never gets built.

Whilst I do not agree with a lot of the things being done against motorists, I also recognise that in many cases you just can't win

[mike s]

Ah, but the German road system was planned in the 30's by a man with a vision(usually including easy movement for Tracked Vehicles)!
Seriously though; most of the traffic through our village is caused by the County Council refusing to recognise the fact that Traffic Lights bring vehicles to a halt ALL of the time, whereas Roundabouts keep SOME vehicles moving constantly.
Even one of their own Highways officers called them a bunch of incompetents.

[sheerwater]

And some countries actually put people in uniform in the middle of the road to direct traffic which means that unlike traffic lights the traffic flow is constantly monitored and there is no sitting at a traffic light when nothing is coming the other way. Reference traffic light use. Our area has gone barmy with pedestrian light controlled crossings. They are putting them on major roads so that motorists grind to a halt every time some little tyke fancies pressing a button whether they want to cross or not. What right do people have to walk when the Govenment is tryin to get everyone on public transport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One thing that the slow the trafic down deliberately systems do is to slow buses down as well so its no win.
Has nobody ever heard of overpasses or underpasses? Oh sorry nobody uses underpases because the Govt. cant solve crime so nobody uses them. chers Nige

[Iwantavolvo]

Another thought here also is that motorists are easy targets. You can't say much when your caught on camera can you. I read in a magazine that prosecutions due to speed camers have reached the 1million mark. If you think about it,the police forces which have signed upto to a scheme (~37) get to heep all the revenue from fines, a truly phenominal amount of money.

Reguards,

Michael

[dlucas]

Speed may no be the cause of most accidents - but it is the cause of more deaths that result from accidents, and serious injury.
Never mind the disproportionate emmisons that come from rapid acceleration (this is why humps are so bad - we all suffer for those that refuse to obey the limits - at least with cameras you can choose to obey the law if you like, unfashionable though that may be).

If there really were cameras everywhere a large number of drivers would already have lost their licences due to endorsements so I suspect many camers are still 'fake'.

[Mav_UK]

Just as an aside to a couple of things.......

Thraffic lights are fine if they either use an infrared camera to check on the cars, or sensors in the road, so they can adjust to the traffic flow. These work great,providing that they are set to pick up motorbikes as well. I have had to jump a few lights at night over here (holland) as the sensors will not pick my motorbike up and some lights are ONLY controled by traffic, no timing so I sit like a prat freezing my but off for 10 mins before realising the lights ain't gonna change!

And about speeding, I have no problem with speeding providing it's done in a safe way, dangerous driving causes more death and destruction, without being linked to speeding. Speed camera's in built up area's, great, totally, no problems there. Speed cameras down straight, long streches of dual carrigeway with no accident history - why?

Incidently they have a couple of roads in leicestershire that are amusing with 'statistics' the Uppingham Road is apparently the most dangerous road in Leicestershire and so has many speed restrictions. It also runs from the center of Leicester to Peterborough, they didn't release the accidents per mile..... And New Parks Way. The ring road for the city, in the past x years has (apparently) had 1 accident. Not death, accident. I'ts now an accident black spot with cameras either there or planned according the people I know there.......

Laters Guys, drive safe!

Stu

[dr dolittle]

Re: "So what to do?"

Better driver training ?

Improved street lighting ?

Teach driving and road use at school ?

Introduce staged licenses as for motorbikes ?

I've always thought public information "adverts" on how to drive properly on the TV during Who Wants to be Zillionaire might be quite effective ? (use of correct lane on motorways, and correct use of fog lights being my personal stress raisers ...)

I'm convinced the biggest danger on the road is simply BAD DRIVING - whatever the speed may be ... higher speeds just tend to make the mess worse when/if it happens ... and strictly it's not the speed that is dangerous, but the rapid decelleration when contacting street furniture, trees, kerbs etc that causes the mess.

All the best

Steve

[sheerwater]

Dont believe that they are fake!!!! Who is going to give up the chance of heavy cash by using false cameras!!! Last statistic I saw was 17000 people have lost their licences (and probably their jobs) on the totting up from points. I know of one person who gained 6 points by going through 2 cameras at 5mph over the top in a one mile stretch. They lost their job for this henious crime and at £40k a year this was effectively a £40,000 pound fine. How much did the great train robbers get. So much for police resources being directed to other activities. What.....parking? Every time I telephone Northants police service is close to zero. A REAL GUN BEING FIRED IN A LOCAL PARK.....reported by me was put on a code 4. This means that they turn up within 12 hours to qualify for government targets. The police are not the only winers in this game. Insurance companies are getting in on the bandwagon by severely increasing premiums. This may be OK if people were driving in a dangerous manner etc. but as Northants is zero tollerance I know of someone who has 6 points for driving at 31 and 34 mph respectively in the flow of traffic. 6 points equals £100 extra premium plus as we all forget the insurance premium tax. I would not mind the sfety campaign if it wa not all one sided. i.e. the authorities take the cash and spend it on road improvements. Some hope. Driving through Northumberland on the notorious A68 I see great improvements in white lines and road signs. Not in the grab the cash Northampton set up . White lines are worn out. Poor roundabout design, blind junctions (Holcot if you ar interested) poor road signs etc. The cash does not go towards safety as most people think. It goes towards building another layer of beauracracy. Take the case of a local councillor who set up the gestapo warden system to book all and sundry. He thoght that the cash could be used for improvments in his ward.
(this is all documented) Nope. The heavy beauracracy took 60% of the money leaving a shortfall in the cash to carry ut the project. Result zero progress, harassed motorists and an ever increasing empire. Nuff said Nige