Is congestion deliberate?

[sheerwater]

Hi again,
Another point for debate.
Is road congestion a deliberate policy by those in power. I give several examples. Recently a 5 mile stretch of dual carriageway leading to the M1 was down to single track because street lights were being cleaned. I say being cleaned because in fact no work was being carried out as the workers sat in the lorry drinking tea while the jam built up to 10 miles long. Health and safety is one thing but in Europe work like this is done with a lorry with a flashing keep right sign (left would be for the UK).
Are UK drivers so irresponsible that this would not work?? (yes I have seen the plonkers still in the outside lane trying to push in just before roadworks) I dont envy the police working on accidents etc. but watching a suicide on a railway line on TV showed that the authorities had two hours to get the system active again. In Northampton a major artery was closed for 5 hours and more because somebody was found dying beside the road in the early hours of the morning. I have witnessed accidents abroad where the big arrow system is sheilding a serious accident allowing traffic to flow on the inside lane and hard shoulder. You are made aware of a problem ahead by warnings well before the blockage so you can adjust your position. How many times have you been on a UK motorway only to see 50,40 or other limits being set for something that does not exist?? Open for debate. Cheers Nige

[George Holmer]

I like the M25 displays showing 50 mph limits due to fog on bright Sunday mornings. I know the feeling Nige but in the conspiracy or ****-up debate, I'm a ****-up guy.

In February, I drove Folkestone-Reading-Baslindon-Halifax-Derby-Folkestone in 24 hours and I encountered eight traffic jams and every single one of them, and I mean every single one, were caused by one car accidents. On the M1, for example, I could see before my own eyes on the opposite part of the motorway how a woman in a minivan had her tyre blow up in the fast lane and she carrered into the centre barrier. I saw this happen and I also saw the build-up of traffic. Later on, one car crashed in the Dartford tunnel and they closed of the whole tunnel, I saw the build up off traffic going into the tunnel stuck in traffic going across the bridge stuck in another jam due to a driver losing control of his car and slamming it into the barrier. These are freak accidents, sometimes caused by bad drivers or bad cars but often things that could happen to any one of us. The problem is that there is so much traffic on British motorways that one little accident, one little disruption to the flow and bang, you have a major standstill. You see this in Germany too but there I blame their love of two lane (or four lane if you prefer) motorways.

[migrator]

Hi Nige,

I am in favour of the "rolling road works" vehicles with the high density flashing lights. I have seen them working well on the continent.

As for the speed limits where ther is no actual work being done (not to mention the coned off areas where there is no work being done) how often have you noticed a general back off of speed in those areas whether or not there are works in progress?

[markas]

Hi all,

Well from a European prospective I had lived in all of Germany, Holland and worked in Switzerland. I agree with George's comments but some of the German’s problems are they drive too fast. I remember driving home one day from Hamburg to the Swiss border 530miles and just into the hilly area and the motorway was closed for two hours. I pasted the accident and the rear panel was all that was left of a Mark 2 Golf, I recognised the light quarters.

To our problem we suffer to many swan Neckers and people driving in appropiately to the road conditions doing 90 in the rain or sitting in the bloody middle land when lane 1 is empty.

I worked in the Highways dept for a while and see road building in a different light now. I personally like the M25 speed system around Heathrow I think it flows much better when I’m down there, instead of these stop and starts.

As for more off ramps, if you are going to get idiots come off lane 3 with 200 yards to go and cut everybody else up in his flash company motor or BMW, these are the people we should target for schooling to prevent accidents.

Coming from Birmingham/Dudley they are building that Major Tool road what a mess its making of the landscape, as people going to pay a £5 to miss all the congestion thought the black country?

An idea I really like are the multiple occupancy lanes the Yanks have they are great especially at rush hours, I drove central LA by mistake once at 5pm.

Our other big problems are lack of real investment into public transport like the Europeans and Beaching as a lot to answer for. A good grid system like the Germans have as already mentioned.

Just my thoughts,

Mark.

[cootuk]

I work shifts and avoid travelling (if I can) at 8am-9:30am/4-6pm so I don't see that much congestion.

I think the rolling road works vehicles are designed to stop a car travelling at 70mph if they hit the rear bumpers of the vehicle, but wouldn't stand a chance if a HGV hit them, and would be damaged by cars travelling faster. Safety would depend in which lane the vehicle is working, though for 'temporary' moving repairs you would imagine them to be more effective.
Cones do at least provide more of a safety zone for workers, but I bet cost comes into play....the adapted vehicles probably cost lots more than a van with a man chucking cones out of the back.

Even more horrendous is the idea to let cars use the hard shoulder...the article on TV was accompanied by CCTV of one suggested motorway stretch that showed....you guessed it...a car broken down on the hard shoulder. Brilliant idea.

[sheerwater]

Hi,
Some good points. I only suggested that the hard shoulder be used as a ane in an emergency to allow traffic around a crash / repair and only at that point. The Govt however seems to use the hard shoulder as often as possible when constructing roads and thats why there is free recovery. As for shifting accidents its funny how cities like Amsterdam can shift cars in seconds with a fork lift type vehicle if it is illegally parked. There is money in this of course. As for German speeds I thought I was doing well at 85-95 until a Smart car followed by a Citroen CV2 overtook me!!!!
Cheers Nige

[markas]

As for German speeds
>I thought I was doing well at 85-95 until a Smart car followed
>by a Citroen CV2 overtook me!!!!
>Cheers Nige

Hi nigel,

Its worse when you are doing 120mph and a renault 5 goes past you too. lol

One of the places where i used to live not to far from the southern borders there is a piece of motor not used until the winter for ski season. You can be doing 120 and a Merc or Bmer will zoom past you making you look like you are standing still.

mark

[sheerwater]

Forgive me if I'm wrong Mark but my experience of German roads is that if you are overtaking you pull over to an inside lane once you are passed the overtaken. The idea seems to be that you get out of the way of vehicles travelling faster which does not happen in the UK. Usually the speeds are far in excess of the UK so overtaking means checking more carefully. I havent had the experience in Germany of some Ar***** rep in a cavalier flashing constantly to overtake when it can clearly be seen that the traffic in front of me is still blocking the way.
I also believe that on some stretches trucks are not allowed to overtake
which allows faster traffic to clear. Unlike the UK where 2 trucks both regultated to 56mph sit for miles blocking the road.
As for the renault 5 at 120 at least you can race tune them. Who the hell race tunes a citroen 2CV and if so how!!!!
Cheers Nige

[markas]

Hi ya,

Yes i agree about the lorries in both lanes, going up hill when you notice they are nattering to each other as their limiters have kicked in. On the rep point i'm on about of idiots which we have many.

Using the hardshoulder for future releaf of the congestion i don't agree with. Another idea they have in the US i like is a centre Meridian, but we just don't have the space in our country, beauteful as it is when its sunny :-)

After my mother was run down on a traffic crossing i drive with a lot more care and caution now.

There are places and times to drive quickly.

Mark

[Mav_UK]

I think the rolling system is a good idea if used correctly. Ther Dutch use very strange lights for their big arrows. Rather than have the illuminated arrow and flashing lights around it they havea flashing arrow, with no other lights. YOu come around a corner and all of a sudden this big arrow appears in front of you (at night). Very safe.

As for idiots. I'll take UK idiots any time over the Dutch ones. 90mph = 1 or 2 meter gap. And they stay there, it's not just waiting for someone to move out of the way, that's simply where they drive. Nearly saw a big accident last week on the A4 between Den Haag and Amsterdam. The Skoda (pre-Volkswagen design, '96) was driving about 2 meters from the car in front, the car in front did a semi emergency stop (the only kind you get on Dutch motorways due to the gap left). The front right wheel locked, whilst the car was riding right up on the rear suspension and the car started to spin as the locked wheel was not slowing down. The brakes were released and it was a few seconds before the car was under control again (it was snaking down the motorway). Once it was under control what happened? 2 meters from the car in front. Makes you wonder what some people have between the ears....

Stu

[sheerwater]

Hi again,
Just for the record I was not suggesting using the hard shoulder for releiving congestion, only as an extra lane at the point of the road blockage. Stu as for your mother being hit on a crossing its worth reading some of the points I made regarding the siting of a new pedestrian crossing within 20 metres od a footbridge and 100 metres of an underpass. My arguement was in this instance that a crosing attracts people away from the footbridge/underpass and places then near to fast moving traffic. Crossings are not foolproof as your poor mum found out and there are plenty out there driving cars who come under the fool heading. Only yesterday some cavalier turbo XR, 2000 valve multiport injection , go faster alloys wwas following me so close on a country road that I didnt know he was there and my kid pointed out that the car behind was so close you couldnt see see the roof!!!! Needless to say I was overtaken on a blind bend with two dangerous junctions. And before we blame kids this guy was about 50 years old. Flash B****
cheers Nige

[Mav_UK]

Nige,

It wasn't my mum, I think that was Mark. But I completely agree with his comments about there being places for speed. Anywhere with padestrians is a bad idea, or anywhere where there is heavy traffic.

As for the country lane I seem to recall that the IAM have a saying for this 'There is no such thing as an empty road'. I have to admit to loving county lanes, but am starting more and more to simply pay the kart people and be a complete hooligan on a track - then do a gentle drive home. Getting quite good too - I get invited for their monthly races almost every visit. Not been yet though, I really should make the effort....

Stu

[sheerwater]

Stu,

Sorry, Yes it was Mark, I was just following on the discussion but its a good idea ref the Karting or similar to get the adrenalin going. I think that lack of danger is one of the real causes of a lot of society's problems. We need to exhaust our pent up energy which is often supressed by 1001 things. I ski to scare the hell out of me. Unfortunately for those who wish to smash bus shelters etc. the danger of being caught and made to pay for the damage has also been taken away by the do-gooders.

Cheers Nige

[Mav_UK]

Iknow what you mean, I was watching 'traffic cops' and the really annoying part is at the end when they voice over says thing slike 'The teenager who stole the car that collided with parked cars, nearly hitting people was given 120 hours community service'. I mean, is that really going to make people think no we shouldn't be doing this?

I wonder what the police make of the crazy sentences? Does it reduce moral to know that some person who is hell bent on making life as difficult as possible is going stratight onto the streets again?

Stu

[sheerwater]

Yes saw the programme to. Funny how the ''naughty people'' are inconvenienced by a few hours yet those who suffer really lose out. Take for example my wifes new car..4 days old and hacked along the door...twice for good measure down to base metal. While the repair cost £125 her business suffered as we had to get another car, made telephone calls, used our petrol to travel back and forth and I lost two days work organising dropping off/collecting car. Real cost far nearer £1000. 120 hours at minimum wage = £620 or thereabouts. Who loses. As for the kids not knowing what they are doing...they got the car rollong on the prog didnt they. My punishment theory is controvercial. Work out the real cost of the crime including police time etc. Set this up as a loan to be repaid over a lifetime. Let them pay it all back when they get cash. Im fed up of seeing criminals who have just cost people a load of inconvenience/cash with expensive mobiles, flash clothes and a better car than mine. Cheers Nige

[Mike Clift]

Nige

Your punishment regime is too soft. Monetary punishment never works and is difficult to control.

Bring back corporal punishment, public flogging and stocks, removal of personal assets and public shaming on billboards and crime rates would soon fall.

Just my opinion you understand.

Mike

[Mav_UK]

I seem to recall reading that most people who had the birch got the message after the first time, and that it was only a select few who had the attitude if you are going to do that to me I'l just re-offend.

I think discipline has got too soft by far anyway in todays society. When growing up I got a smack occasionally, never very often, and I was certainly not beaten black and blue. I got the message though and learnt very quickly from it. Now it seems that by the time I have kids it's going to be illegal to do this as someone has stated that kids don't learn, and anyone who is smaked turns into a violent sociopath. Yeah, right. Strange but as more and more complain about smaking and people stop doing it, crime from children and teenagers increases. Coincidence?

Stu

[sheerwater]

Yep...agreed.
I bumped into somebody who works in a solicitors today. Their attitude was that the only people to benefit from the law today are criminals and those on social security. Of course you may have a police record and dont know about it. During a routine police check on my character I discovered that I had a police record. It was incorrect and I had a hell of a job getting the facts corrected. Pity I didn't commit loads of offences as I would have been treated with sympathy, Cheers Nige. PS wife is a criminal. Caught speeding after they changed speed limit while we were on holiday. No warning signs to say things had changed.