Revision of Motorway Speed Limits and Rules

[volvorocks]

Revision of Motorway Speed Limits and Rules

What are peoples views on altering the speeds that vehicles can travel on the motorway?

These are my views

Increase the speed limit to 80mph for passenger cars and come down hard on excessive speeding above this.

Introduction of tailgating cameras like these mentioned here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article430771.ece) in an old news post

Restrict vans to 70mph.

Keep HGV restricted to 56mph and allow travel only in lane 1

Opinions and views welcomed

[JamesV70R]

Revision of Motorway Speed Limits and Rules

What are peoples views on altering the speeds that vehicles can travel on the motorway?

These are my views

Increase the speed limit to 80mph for passenger cars and come down hard on excessive speeding above this.

Introduction of tailgating cameras like these mentioned here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article430771.ece) in an old news post

Restrict vans to 70mph.

Keep HGV restricted to 56mph and allow travel only in lane 1

Opinions and views welcomed


So you'll have a solid line of trucks in Lane 1 all doing 56mph. They already have right of way as they are already on the motorway. If they can't move across how are YOU going to join said motorway? You haven't thought this one through, have you?

What would you count "excessive" speeding over 80mph? 100mph? 110? Why not leave it at 70 and just come down on those over 80/85? Or even, come down on those over 75! The limit is, after all, 70 ...

[Daim]

Hmm... What about raising it to European standard motorway speeds?

Cars: 80 mph (130 km/h)
Lorries: 50 mph (80 km/h)
Vans: 75 mph (120 km/h)

I'd like a lift in lorry speeds for motorways -> 60 mph/100 km/h would be great (I don't drive a lorry) as they do tend to cause hold ups... And at the same time drop the limit for vans to the same speed -> commercial vehicles (except taxis) limited to 60 mph/100 km/h :D

[Barry W]

and .... if we have a solid line of HGV on the inside lane, not only will it be difficult to get onto the road in the first place, it will be almost impossible to leave it when you get to the exit!

Wall - to - wall trucks when I am in a car does not sound like my idea of fun.

[friedfrog]

I think the speed limit ought to be upped to about 100mph for cars, reason being when the speed limits were introduced 100mph would've been impossible in most "regular" cars and terrifying in those that could do it.
ABS, Tracs, Stability, etc. etc. all make cars much more easy to drive.

Never driven owt bigger than a luton van, but do think 56mph in a lorry seems very slow, surely they have become far easier and safer to drive over the years.

I can do 100mph in my car (on a private rd odviously..lol) whilst rolling a fag, eating a mars bar and swigging a can of can't, not all at the same time, but y'know what I mean.

Maybe M'ways should have electronic speed limit signs that change in a fair and reasonable manner thru the day depending on traffic, weather etc.

ff

[Thanatos]

What's wrong with them as they are you don't use as much fuel at 70, and you do when say 90 and it's not the cars that you have to worry about it's the thinking distance as some people at the moment can't think whilst driving on a motorway so what makes you think it will get any better at highr speeds.

[volvorocks]

So you'll have a solid line of trucks in Lane 1 all doing 56mph. They already have right of way as they are already on the motorway. If they can't move across how are YOU going to join said motorway? You haven't thought this one through, have you?

What would you count "excessive" speeding over 80mph? 100mph? 110? Why not leave it at 70 and just come down on those over 80/85? Or even, come down on those over 75! The limit is, after all, 70 ...

Yes indeed I have thought it through and my post is purely my view and opinion.

HGV in lane 1 only has been tried succesfully here (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/250246/lorry_overtaking_ban_halts_elephant_racing.html)

A lot of people that seem to hog the centre lane also mile after mile have a view that lane 1 is "just for lorries" - so why not make it a rule.

I doubt exiting or entering a motorway would be problematic as the scenario you suggest would need thousands of lorries all travelling a few feet (or inches maybe) apart.

I for one feel a lot safer when overtaking a lorry that is travelling in lane 2 when I am in lane 3 safe in the knowledge that they are not allowed in lane 3 therefore will not pull right out in my path.

Regards

[adieu]

But if the trucks keep a SAFE distance between themselves you'd have plenty of room. Vans should be able to travel as fast as cars on motorways, but keep the present 60 mph and 50mph limits.

Ducks behind sofa.

[volvorocks]

I think the speed limit ought to be upped to about 100mph for cars, reason being when the speed limits were introduced 100mph would've been impossible in most "regular" cars and terrifying in those that could do it.
ABS, Tracs, Stability, etc. etc. all make cars much more easy to drive.

Never driven owt bigger than a luton van, but do think 56mph in a lorry seems very slow, surely they have become far easier and safer to drive over the years.

I can do 100mph in my car (on a private rd odviously..lol) whilst rolling a fag, eating a mars bar and swigging a can of can't, not all at the same time, but y'know what I mean.

Maybe M'ways should have electronic speed limit signs that change in a fair and reasonable manner thru the day depending on traffic, weather etc.

ff

Its the stopping from those speeds that will be problematic

[volvorocks]

What would you count "excessive" speeding over 80mph? 100mph? 110? Why not leave it at 70 and just come down on those over 80/85? Or even, come down on those over 75! The limit is, after all, 70 ...

Regards speed limit

If the speed limit is 70mph I feel uncorfortable going faster although on occasion do,say 80 on the clock(probably a genuine 76mph) which I find a nice speed - not too fast and not too slow. I would like to do this without risk of points.

Regards lane 1 ban on HGV

Coaches and lorries are banned from using lane 3. Lane 2 is full of lane hoggers that sit at 60mph mile after mile meaning lane 3 gets overfull with people wishing to do the speed limit. Lane 2 hogger pulls into lane 3 at 60mph because lorry A doing 55.8mph wishes to overtake lorry B doing 55.6mph in lane 1.

Result:
Bunching in lane 3
Tailbacks in lane 3
Rear enders due too tailgaters in lane 3
Increase in emissions/pollution and vehicle wear and tear.

Just my thoughts

Regards

[chelle_belle]

Fully loaded lorry in lane one hits a slight hill his speed drops to say 45mph, lorry behind is unloaded and can do 56mph but cant use lane two,
You can see where i am going with this.

[christheancient]

Its the stopping from those speeds that will be problematic

Spot on!

At 100mph...

Thinking Distance = 100ft
Braking Distance = 500ft
Overall Stopping Distance = 600 ft (approx the length of two football pitches)

At 70mph...

Thinking Distance = 70ft
Braking Distance = 245ft
Overall Stopping Distance = 315 ft (approx the length of one football pitch)

For that extra 30mph, the overall stopping distance is nearly doubled!

And that is if the brakes are in good nick, the driver is alert and the road is nice and dry with a good surface.

I know which I prefer!

[stephend]

And the energy that has to be dissipated in a crash goes as the square of speed: in fact, it doubles on going from 70 to 100 mph. So if you crash at 100 mph, it's a lot more serious than if you crash at 70 mph - which is bad enough already. :(

I used to think that 80 mph was more realistic than 70 mph, and ACPO seemed to agree. But with the price of petrol nowadays, I'm starting to think again.

[volvorocks]

Fully loaded lorry in lane one hits a slight hill his speed drops to say 45mph, lorry behind is unloaded and can do 56mph but cant use lane two,
You can see where i am going with this.

Hi Chelle Belle and Craig!

Do see your point.

Would it be too much to expect though to expect the faster lorry to simply follow at the reduced speed for a little while until the slower lorry is back to 56mph?

TBH I have not come across that many lorries doing 45mph on the mway as the majority of HGV nowadays can maintain 56mph ish up and down hills loaded or unloaded due to their powerful engines. Yes ok they may have to drop a cog or 2 (or 3)..!!

My scenario from the previous page thus applies in this instance!

[volvorocks]

And the energy that has to be dissipated in a crash goes as the square of speed: in fact, it doubles on going from 70 to 100 mph. So if you crash at 100 mph, it's a lot more serious than if you crash at 70 mph - which is bad enough already. :(

I used to think that 80 mph was more realistic than 70 mph, and ACPO seemed to agree. But with the price of petrol nowadays, I'm starting to think again.

Good point Stephend

Although regards petrol use at 80mph you still have the choice to do 70.
80 would be a limit not a target..LOL

Regards

[DesertDog]

People seem to think that the speed limit is the MINIMUM speed they should drive at....

[JamesV70R]

But if the trucks keep a SAFE distance between themselves you'd have plenty of room. Vans should be able to travel as fast as cars on motorways, but keep the present 60 mph and 50mph limits.

Ducks behind sofa.

Hi Chelle Belle and Craig!

Do see your point.

Would it be too much to expect though to expect the faster lorry to simply follow at the reduced speed for a little while until the slower lorry is back to 56mph?

TBH I have not come across that many lorries doing 45mph on the mway as the majority of HGV nowadays can maintain 56mph ish up and down hills loaded or unloaded due to their powerful engines. Yes ok they may have to drop a cog or 2 (or 3)..!!

My scenario from the previous page thus applies in this instance!

A lot of lorries, (although the MAXIMUM speed they are limited to is 56mph) are actually doing LES than that. Drop in behind a Tesco/Sainsburys truck and you'll likely find they are doing 53/54 for "fuel saving"

You say you think its not that bad to sit behind a slower lorry - if it wasn't that bad why do the ones that can do 0.5mph faster attempt the overtake in the first place? Because they CAN! Because they have deadlines to meet.

If its not that bad, why do *you* overtake anyone on the motorway? To get where you are going a few minutes (tops) quicker? Heres an experiment for you: Join the motorway, and stay a safe distance behind the HGV infront of you. Don't overtake, stay there.

You also mention lorries and safe distances ... How often do you see them driving so close together you couldn't fit your car between them if you tried? (These are the "bad eggs" I'm talking about here - the majority are pretty good)

[adieu]

245 ft wow....

VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 4-passenger, 2-door coupe

PRICE AS TESTED: $49,925 (base price: $38,990)

ENGINE TYPE: DOHC 24-valve V-6, aluminum block and heads, direct fuel injection

Displacement: 217 cu in, 3564 cc Power (SAE net): 304 bhp @ 6400 rpm Torque (SAE net): 273 lb-ft @ 5200 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 6-speed automatic with manumatic shifting

DIMENSIONS: Wheelbase: 113.4 in Length: 188.5 in Width: 74.1 in Height: 56.0 in Curb weight: 4093 lbs Braking, 70–0 mph: 156 ft

It's the last bit.... 156 ft
And its a yank tank.

[Daim]

Okay, higher speeds seem "scary" for some of you (by reading some of the posts here I got that impression) but have any of you driven on German Autobahns for a while exceeding speeds of 130 km/h (80 mph)?

The problem isn't your stopping distance, it is the other drivers. If the other driver won't expect someone to be driving 160 km/h (100 mph) and simply pulls out infront of you THEN you have the issue. BUT here in Germany people use their mirrors. They get the appropriate driving education needed...

Ever been overtaken by a car going 400(!) km/h (400 km/h = 248 mph!!!)? No? What do you do? You keep your eyes on your driver's side mirror and as soon as you think you are able to overtake, you look into it a few times! Not only once! And then you are on the safe side...

An increase in speed will require MAJOR education of the masses!

[volvorocks]

A lot of lorries, (although the MAXIMUM speed they are limited to is 56mph) are actually doing LES than that. Drop in behind a Tesco/Sainsburys truck and you'll likely find they are doing 53/54 for "fuel saving"

You say you think its not that bad to sit behind a slower lorry - if it wasn't that bad why do the ones that can do 0.5mph faster attempt the overtake in the first place? Because they CAN! Because they have deadlines to meet.

(1)If its not that bad, why do *you* overtake anyone on the motorway? To get where you are going a few minutes (tops) quicker? Heres an experiment for you: (2)Join the motorway, and stay a safe distance behind the HGV infront of you. Don't overtake, stay there.

You also mention lorries and safe distances ... (3)How often do you see them driving so close together you couldn't fit your car between them if you tried? (These are the "bad eggs" I'm talking about here - the majority are pretty good)

Have highlighted the bits above to answer

1. Because I can - in safety and without pulling out too suddenly and slowing others down (No brown underwear if I pull out in front of you):lol:

2.From time to time I do this as I enjoy a slower more relaxed speed sometimes BUT 3 under applies

3.Inevitably I get a lorry tailgating me maybe him thinking why is a fast car in the "slow" lane and reducing my lorry speed to 55.8mph (cue the lorry pulling into lane 2 for a 6 mile overtake manoeuvre) - so I either speed up (which may make the lorry driver think Im being awkward) or slow down in order to let him pass - which means me coming off cruise which I do not really want to do although if I stay on cruise the 6 mile overtaking manoeuvre commences.

regards

[volvorocks]

Okay, higher speeds seem "scary" for some of you (by reading some of the posts here I got that impression) but have any of you driven on German Autobahns for a while exceeding speeds of 130 km/h (80 mph)?

The problem isn't your stopping distance, it is the other drivers. If the other driver won't expect someone to be driving 160 km/h (100 mph) and simply pulls out infront of you THEN you have the issue. BUT here in Germany people use their mirrors. They get the appropriate driving education needed...

Ever been overtaken by a car going 400(!) km/h (400 km/h = 248 mph!!!)? No? What do you do? You keep your eyes on your driver's side mirror and as soon as you think you are able to overtake, you look into it a few times! Not only once! And then you are on the safe side...

An increase in speed will require MAJOR education of the masses!

Hi Daim

I have driven on the German Autobahns at high speed and I was overtaken as though I was stationary!!!!!!!!!

regards

[tt82]

HGV's restricted to lane 1?

Imagine this scenario. You as a considerate driver wishing to leave the motorway join lane 1 inbetween 2 HGV's in plenty of time, as you travel along and near the junction an incosiderate driver, having left attempting to join lane 1 till the last momment pulls in front of the lorry infornt you and brakes hard. That HGV then brakes hard itself to avoid a collision. You brake hard to avoid the collision. The HGV behind you reacts slowly and doesnt brake hard enough.

Do your family want flowers or donations to a charitable cause in your memory?

[chelle_belle]

Hi Chelle Belle and Craig!

Do see your point.

Would it be too much to expect though to expect the faster lorry to simply follow at the reduced speed for a little while until the slower lorry is back to 56mph?

TBH I have not come across that many lorries doing 45mph on the mway as the majority of HGV nowadays can maintain 56mph ish up and down hills loaded or unloaded due to their powerful engines. Yes ok they may have to drop a cog or 2 (or 3)..!!

My scenario from the previous page thus applies in this instance!

Hi Volvorocks,

If the unloaded lorry stayed behind the loaded one then all the lorrys behind would be at 45mph,
A truck i used to drive which was extremely powerful would struggle when loaded up hill.

[volvorocks]

HGV's restricted to lane 1?

Imagine this scenario. You as a considerate driver wishing to leave the motorway join lane 1 inbetween 2 HGV's in plenty of time, as you travel along and near the junction an incosiderate driver, having left attempting to join lane 1 till the last momment pulls in front of the lorry infornt you and brakes hard. That HGV then brakes hard itself to avoid a collision. You brake hard to avoid the collision. The HGV behind you reacts slowly and doesnt brake hard enough.

Do your family want flowers or donations to a charitable cause in your memory?

This could happen even if HGV's remain being allowed in lane 2.

In the scenario you describe using the current rules in so far as the HGV IS allowed in lane 2 he would simply pull into lane 2 and crush you as you were attempting to get into the gap filled by the inconsiderate motorway joiner!!!

regards

[volvorocks]

Hi Volvorocks,

If the unloaded lorry stayed behind the loaded one then all the lorrys behind would be at 45mph,
A truck i used to drive which was extremely powerful would struggle when loaded up hill.

Hi Michelle and Craig

Yes I do accept your point. It is a good one.

Regards

[galloot633]

I was beginning to think it was only me that had to play "avoid the mad truck driver" on motorways ! what I cant understand is these drivers must be the most highly qualified/ experienced on the road, but so many of them drive like inconsiderate maniacs , I travel between cheshire and surrey a couple of times a month, so I dont really qualify as a high milage user, but every trip I witness several near misses and last trip a bmw side swiped a she drove past in lane 2 , its that bad now if I see a queue of trucks in front I move into lane 3 , bad practise I know but Im witnessing more and more drivers doing the same
dave

[Danger]

I was beginning to think it was only me that had to play "avoid the mad truck driver" on motorways ! what I cant understand is these drivers must be the most highly qualified/ experienced on the road, but so many of them drive like inconsiderate maniacs... its that bad now if I see a queue of trucks in front I move into lane 3 , bad practise I know but Im witnessing more and more drivers doing the same
dave

same here. Part of motorway driving is anticipating the actions of a dozen other drivers, that can only get harder at higher speed.

[owyn]

No bad practice there! Especially if the lorry is left hand drive, there's a big blind spot under the right door.
If there is room I'd say a lane 3 overtake is the way to go.

[bigbadee]

being a hgv driver only having lane 1 would kill me as there is a need to overtake if we were only allowed in lane one then it would end up taking us longer to deliver our goods which would mean more man hours pushing prices up even more .but i would like to see the motor limit uped a bit 80ish for cars maybe vans i personly would leave hgv were it is but can someone tell me why coaches which have people on board not just goods are alowed to travel at 70 and use all 3 lanes

[Bill_56]

but can someone tell me why coaches which have people on board not just goods are alowed to travel at 70 and use all 3 lanes

I agree a lower speed limit for coaches would seem to make sense, but I thought they (full-sized coaches) had been banned from the third lane for quite some time now?

Highway code rule 265

265
The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used (except in prescribed circumstances) if you are driving
any vehicle drawing a trailer
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight not exceeding 7.5 tonnes which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter

[SiRS2000]

My View

Motorways in general are too busy .so I propose the following.

HGV still limited to 56 Mph Banned from the inside lane
Vans and coaches limited to 70 Mph banned from the inside lane.
Cars unlimited ala Autobahn.

Before I get shot down I would suggest variable speed cameras over the whole network which are to be strictly used during busy times with heavy penalties in the interest in safety due to the road conditions.. This also means that when the conditions permit those who wish to can put their foot down.

It would also so be good if these cameras could detect tailgaters, undertakers and the clowns who cut you up on the motorway.

Just my views to make the motorways safer and fairer.

[volvorocks]

being a hgv driver only having lane 1 would kill me as there is a need to overtake if we were only allowed in lane one then it would end up taking us longer to deliver our goods which would mean more man hours pushing prices up even more .but i would like to see the motor limit uped a bit 80ish for cars maybe vans i personly would leave hgv were it is but can someone tell me why coaches which have people on board not just goods are alowed to travel at 70 and use all 3 lanes

Bigbadee

I understand that speed limits for coaches are indeed 70mph although many are limited to 62.5mph. Coaches/Buses are also not permitted in the 3rd lane on a motorway as neither are mini buses that are fitted with speed limiters.

So if I drove a minibus of my own I could go in the 3rd lane as it would not have a limiter yet if it had a limiter I would not be allowed to go in the 3rd lane.

How would this be enforced? How would the Police know unless they pulled the minibus up?

Regards HGV the speed limits for them are lower than cars except urban .For example the speed limit for an HGV is actually 60mph on motorways yet on dual carriageways where the speed limit for cars is 70mph - for an HGV its 50mph. For a transit type vehicle the speed limit for them on a dual carriage way is also reduced to 60mph. how many times have we been driving on a dual carriage way in our cars and "white blue green yellow van man" has come bearing down on us at 70mph?


Definitely limit transit type vans to 70mph. Definitely
(maybe less)

[volvorocks]

My View


HGV still limited to 56 Mph Banned from the inside lane
Vans and coaches limited to 70 Mph banned from the inside lane.
Cars unlimited ala Autobahn.


Just my views to make the motorways safer and fairer.

Banned from the inside lane..???

[Dibble]

A lot of lorries, (although the MAXIMUM speed they are limited to is 56mph) are actually doing LES than that. Drop in behind a Tesco/Sainsburys truck and you'll likely find they are doing 53/54 for "fuel saving"

You say you think its not that bad to sit behind a slower lorry - if it wasn't that bad why do the ones that can do 0.5mph faster attempt the overtake in the first place? Because they CAN! Because they have deadlines to meet.

If its not that bad, why do *you* overtake anyone on the motorway? To get where you are going a few minutes (tops) quicker? Heres an experiment for you: Join the motorway, and stay a safe distance behind the HGV infront of you. Don't overtake, stay there.

You also mention lorries and safe distances ... How often do you see them driving so close together you couldn't fit your car between them if you tried? (These are the "bad eggs" I'm talking about here - the majority are pretty good)

A lot of sense here but Volvorocks also makes some good points. However, he speaks as a car driver and I assume has never been in a position to experience the situation from the driving seat of a 44 tonne Artic. The truck drivers come in for a fair bit of criticism, a lot of which is justified but some of the car drivers antics is unbelievable.
I speak as a car driver and truck driver although now as an LGV Instructor.
When the 56mph (90kph) limit was first mooted the powers that be were told that this would lead to bunching and that is what happens. I can understand and have experienced the frustration but the car driver is not alone in having to reach deadlines. A few years ago I have on many occasions left Aberdeen to deliver to a Tesco or Asda RDC in deepest England with a time for delivery. The driver has one hour either side of that time to deliver and if he fails then park up and book for the next day. He has to make progress.
In my view the motorway speed limit should be 60mph. Only 4mph of a difference but after 10 hours driving that could be the difference between being legal and illegal.
Trucks should also have access to Lane 2 although I would accept restricted to Lane 1 during peak periods.
And finally the 40mph speed limit on a 2 way road is totally inadequate in this day and age and causes considerable frustration. I think of the A1 particularly through Northumbria when I say this and also the A9 between Perth and Inverness where there could be a 2 mile line of traffic with a Tesco or Asda or JCB at the front. A recipe for a serious accident.

[volvorocks]

I was beginning to think it was only me that had to play "avoid the mad truck driver" on motorways ! what I cant understand is these drivers must be the most highly qualified/ experienced on the road, but so many of them drive like inconsiderate maniacs

......apart from Eddie Stobart (well most of them)

[GTMaster]

Another way to make trucks on the road safer: a boot up the rear end for those who invent the strict deadlines for them?

[volvorocks]

A lot of sense here but Volvorocks also makes some good points. However, he speaks as a car driver and I assume has never been in a position to experience the situation from the driving seat of a 44 tonne Artic. The truck drivers come in for a fair bit of criticism, a lot of which is justified but some of the car drivers antics is unbelievable.
I speak as a car driver and truck driver although now as an LGV Instructor.
When the 56mph (90kph) limit was first mooted the powers that be were told that this would lead to bunching and that is what happens. I can understand and have experienced the frustration but the car driver is not alone in having to reach deadlines. A few years ago I have on many occasions left Aberdeen to deliver to a Tesco or Asda RDC in deepest England with a time for delivery. The driver has one hour either side of that time to deliver and if he fails then park up and book for the next day. He has to make progress.
In my view the motorway speed limit should be 60mph. Only 4mph of a difference but after 10 hours driving that could be the difference between being legal and illegal.
Trucks should also have access to Lane 2 although I would accept restricted to Lane 1 during peak periods.
And finally the 40mph speed limit on a 2 way road is totally inadequate in this day and age and causes considerable frustration. I think of the A1 particularly through Northumbria when I say this and also the A9 between Perth and Inverness where there could be a 2 mile line of traffic with a Tesco or Asda or JCB at the front. A recipe for a serious accident.

Hi Dibble

Have highlighted your points which seem an acceptable solution?

Yes have been in HGV's although not an experienced trucker from the drivers seat!!

Yes indeed what some car drivers do to trucks is unbelievable and must frustrate the truckers greatly.

Yes time is important to truckers as their goods will be rejected.

regards

[volvorocks]

A lot of sense here but Volvorocks also makes some good points. However, he speaks as a car driver and I assume has never been in a position to experience the situation from the driving seat of a 44 tonne Artic.

True.

If I did drive a truck I personally would like it to be unlimited.

So why would I say this when I believe they should be limited to 56mph or 60mph. Hypocrisy maybe? One rule for me another rule for others?

Well for the same reason as I drive vehicles with top speeds ranging from about 100mph to 145mph yet I keep to the speed limits.

If I drove a truck on congested motorways I would "self limit" my speed to say the 56mph yet on a totally empty motorway , if it was legal and safe I would do say 70mph, as yes I would get frustrated toddling along at 56mph day in day out - especially when it is safer to go faster.

Thing is though how many truckers have such self discipline....or for that matter car drivers......?

regards

[bigbadee]

i stand corrected belive a coach can still travel at 70 if not over 12 metres long but it still didnt stop 2 nat ex coaches sitting 2 inches off my tailgate at 80 in lane 3 today but no ones perfect deff not me think good old volvorocks just likes toget our old grey matter working but i do enjoy his threads

[prionailurus]

Isn't it high time the speed limit was set on the driver and not the vehicle type.
I'm sure most of you will agree that (bad habits aside) someone who has driven for a few years is safer and wiser than those who have just passed their test?

For instance, there's someone with the 1.0 micra (sorry to stereotype), they're 17/18, just passed their test and only just been allowed onto the M roads, they're allowed to do 70...

Then there's me, driving over 9 years (nothing compared to some on here but...) pass plus trained straight away for M roads and bad weather, also IAM (ADI part 1) passed a year after this - now an associate member, done the full roadcraft course, and further training a few years later by a diamond level rospa driver. Yet I'm stuck to 70 too...

I am more aware of the vehicle I'm in, its capabilities, and just as importantly: its in-capabilities! I have far greater acceleration sense, can chase vanishing points, can feel if a tyre is 1-2psi down, know the noises the car should and shouldn't make, and know when its not bloody safe to be doing as much as 70!!

Who is safer, me with the "allowance" to do 100mph (for example) or the recent L plate ripper at 70mph? Who would you rather be a passenger to?

I would much rather have it lifted for those who are able, further & regular testing if necessary, and even stopped for licence inspection, it'd still be quicker over a long journey, than stuck to a limit that was introduced as a derestriction through inability at the time.

[Dibble]

True.

If I did drive a truck I personally would like it to be unlimited.

So why would I say this when I believe they should be limited to 56mph or 60mph. Hypocrisy maybe? One rule for me another rule for others?

Well for the same reason as I drive vehicles with top speeds ranging from about 100mph to 145mph yet I keep to the speed limits.

If I drove a truck on congested motorways I would "self limit" my speed to say the 56mph yet on a totally empty motorway , if it was legal and safe I would do say 70mph, as yes I would get frustrated toddling along at 56mph day in day out - especially when it is safer to go faster.

Thing is though how many truckers have such self discipline....or for that matter car drivers......?

regards

I admire your honesty but would also add that the majority of truck drivers would drive according to the conditions pertaining at that time as do the vast majority of the motoring public. And you are quite correct when you say toddling along at 56mph. Could you imagine going from Aberdeen to Birmingham at 56mph! And that is only motorway. 50mph on dual carriageways and 40mph on two way roads. But also remember this speed is decreed by EC law i.e 90kph, a fine all round figure! Perhaps if we all complained to our MP's we could get something done about it.
And so the car driver may well be frustrated but how do you think the truck driver feels. And if the car driver is running late he can at least accelerate and make up time but the trucker cannot. 56mph max and in an effort to save fuel a number of hauliers are now restricting their trucks to 52-54mph. So why should the truck that can do 56 be restricted to the nearside lane behind the 52mph one?

[volvorocks]

i stand corrected belive a coach can still travel at 70 if not over 12 metres long but it still didnt stop 2 nat ex coaches sitting 2 inches off my tailgate at 80 in lane 3 today but no ones perfect deff not me think good old volvorocks just likes toget our old grey matter working but i do enjoy his threads

Bigbadee

Sure do like to get the grey matter working..!!..lol

I think Nat Ex coaches are exempt from the law..!!..lol

[volvorocks]

A Isn't it high time the speed limit was set on the driver and not the vehicle type.



B Who is safer, me with the "allowance" to do 100mph (for example) or the recent L plate ripper at 70mph? Who would you rather be a passenger to?


C I would much rather have it lifted for those who are able

A How would this be enforced?

B If Im honest and I try to be - neither of you :lol:

C ..160mph for Ari Vatenen or Hannu Mikkola maybe - 170mph for Jenson Button or Lewis Hamilton maybe ? :lol:

Regards

[stevo48]

I have to agree with a lot of what has been posted above except for volvorocks post regards hgv speeds.
If I remember correctly (and I stand to be corrected if i am wrong) hgv's were restricted due to the carnage caused by high speed crashes, a fully laden hgv TRYING to stop from, lets say 80mph in an emergency scenario just doesn't bear thinking about, imagine the scene, foggy mway conditions, two car prang partially blocking the carriageways, hgv thundering along at 80mph, driver spots the car crash a little late, hgv unable to slow down sufficiently enough to avoid car crash, result total carnage.
My opinion, leave the restrictions in place and restrict hgv's to the nearside lane as in germany, it works there.

[volvorocks]

would also add that the majority of truck drivers would drive according to the conditions pertaining at that time as do the vast majority of the motoring public.

Perhaps the majority actually do drive according to the conditions but it is the minority ( and by minority thats still a hek of a lot so not quite the best word to actually describe them) that do not.

Ive noticed over the years how the minority is growing as driving standards get worse and worse as some of the majority are joining the minority and it wont be long before everyone is driving hell for leather. Probably due to the high pressure world we live in where everything must be done by yesterday..!!

I understand where you are coming from and there is perhaps a bit too much nanny state and regulation nowadays and probably soon we may be banning cricket in case someone use the bat as an offensive weapon.:lol:

Regards

[volvorocks]

I have to agree with a lot of what has been posted above except for volvorocks post regards hgv speeds

My opinion, leave the restrictions in place and restrict hgv's to the nearside lane as in germany, it works there.

Hi Stevo48

I am in favour of leaving lorries restricted to 56mph.

My post where I say unlimited would be fine applies only to me if I were a truck driver :wink_smile:

Agree with you about restricting HGV's to lane one though (or maybe as Dibble said between certain hours)

regards

[prionailurus]

A How would this be enforced?

B If Im honest and I try to be - neither of you :lol:

C ..160mph for Ari Vatenen or Hannu Mikkola maybe - 170mph for Jenson Button or Lewis Hamilton maybe ? :lol:

Regards

A - there you go, I've even created jobs with my answer. The police would enforce it. The simplest method might be an additional category on your licence to mark you as a "Derestricted Driver" then a bloke can be a Double D too :lightbulb:

B - fair play, I do most of my driving solo...keeps the weight down :err:

C - the Double D limit would be set, not different for every person, hence my using 100mph in my post. Naturally I wouldn't choose a speed faster than my car can go :hidesbehindsofa:
To be honest I'd probably say 90 or 100, most cars can do these speeds now, and with ease in most cases. The plan is not to blow up little engines here, or see tyre blowouts. Also we wouldn't want to widen the gap too far between the two allowed speeds...Getting from 150 to 70 quickly because the teeny bopper didn't see you wouldn't be fun, but 90-70 is just a second on the woow pedal :)

I knew I'd like this topic :thumbs_up:

[volvorocks]

A The police would enforce it :lightbulb:

B - fair play, I do most of my driving solo...keeps the weight down :err:

C -To be honest I'd probably say 90 or 100, most cars can do these speeds now, and with ease in most cases. Also we wouldn't want to widen the gap too far between the two allowed speeds...Getting from 150 to 70 quickly because the teeny bopper didn't see you wouldn't be fun but 90-70 is just a second on the woow pedal :)

I knew I'd like this topic :thumbs_up:

A What Police...??...:baffled: with less on the way thanks to Government cutbacks!

B You wouldnt want me in the car then...:cow11: :lol:

C What about stopping altogether from 90mph....!!!!

Regards

[arcturus]

Doesn't matter where the limits are set. Someone will always want to go faster!

[Daim]

Doesn't matter where the limits are set. Someone will always want to go faster!

That is why you remove them :D

http://static.cosmiq.de/data/de/ded/4e/ded4e3cf93ca64d355cbb045b389ba6e_1.jpg

[andy_d]

pointless
hmg will do what hmg wants to, regardless of sensible or not. they spent millions on the reports to "prove" there point of whatever limit for whatever road/motor vehicle.
they earn a Shed load when you get nicked* for going over said limit,,and the media Love it ,,, accept it deal with it.

*unless your a politician/footballer/so called celebrity/magistrate/copper/etc for whom the normal laws seem not to apply.

[lillia]

I would say that it would be much better to (1) raise the speed limits on most UK motorways and dual carriageways after having improved the road surfaces, and then (2) direct the slowpokes to alternative routes. (3) Use the speed limits as guidelines, rather than absolutes. For example, drivers on the autobahns in Germany routinely drive at 160 km/h even though the signs say 120 km/h and aren't chased down and prosecuted for it.

Coming back from Oxford on the M40 this weekend I was enraged at the staggeringly HIGH number of motorists pottering along at 40 - 50 miles per hour in a 70 mph zone! And many of them had decided to take up residence in the middle lane, with 3 or 4 brave ones occupying the outside (third) lane at various intervals. Oh for a big snow plow when one needs it!

Motorways are for people who want to get to places, not for sightseeing.

I am of the opinion that much of the congestion on certain roads and motorways is due to the fact that too many people are hell bent at driving below the speed limit. No wonder people speed when they finally get a bit of clear road. I am usually calm on the roads, but am finding it harder to suppress my irritation at people who will be doing 38 mph on a 40 mph road, only to slam on the brakes and slow down to 30 mph the minute they see a sign with a camera on it.

We moralise way too much over the use of speed in this country. There is nothing wrong with driving fast, as long as one is not reckless.

While I'm ranting, I find that the roads appear to be designed to punish anyone who wants to go above 50 mph. The outside lanes, in particular, appear to have been deliberately designed to guarantee a harsh, bumpy ride. The UK needs to facilitate road users, not punish them. The only ones benefiting from poor road surfaces at the moment are petrol stations and car mechanics (oh and the tax man).

[kebab10]

About time really. Modern cars can acheive better economy and are built bit better than in the 60's but it will be a small minority who will spoil it. I expect we shall see more in the way of average speed cameras to enforce the limit as of course there arent enough coppers around due to cutbacks.
Dont have to pay cameras, give them leave or pay them when they are off sick.

[weble]

Some interesting views in here. Didn't realise there were so many lorry bashers! Mine is limited to 52! Nothing i can do about it, that's just knackered every single lorry coming out of wales down the M54 for the rest of the day, every day! That could be said for every motorway everyone of our lorrys use.

Added to the fact going up the wrekin i can drop to 40 when loaded and in a DAF. Added to the bunching effect, braking etc etc, come mid morning lane 1 is doing 20mph of solid lorrys! Try getting into THAT lane in your car from 70mph when u want off without being rear ended by someone else in the middle lane who dont want off who is still doing 70mph. Then imagine how much your pint of milk will cost having taken 4 hours to travel 80 miles!

I also know that some certain "Cleaner" Gass (LNG) trucks struggle so badly they are know for EIGHTEEN mph climbs up the M5 just before J3 north! Imagine those tailbacks

As for this idea of more experienced drivers being able to go faster! wtf? So the 18 year old girl who's not very confident as it is, stuck to 60/70mph, now has to deal with reps in BMW's harrasing, doing 80/90/100mph because they're aloud to? On the same motorway where lane one is now down to 30mph because it's lunchtime and there are so many 100,000 lorrys on the motorway network all lined up in lane 1.

A traffic officer once told me, he wouldnt look twice at something like a Jag, BMW, Merc etc cruising along at a steady 80/85! But a 1.0 Metro hammering at 75/80 would catch his attention.

Would i qualify as experienced? I've only been driving 10 years? Great stuff if i can, i can now take my 1100cc 4 speed 23 year old Fiesta upto 90mph (that's it, flat out, lol). That would not be wise!

If anything i dont think car speed limits should go up, they should go down! The problem sometimes is so many people doing so many different speeds (with different limits)! 65mph, EVERYONE, cars, vans, motorbikes, trucks, coaches, race horses and pigeons! Lane 1 and 2 to run a little more like a dual carageway (because let's face it, u'll never get rid of lane hogs) Passing aloud on the inside only in lane 1. Lane 3 for passing only. Also variable speed limits introduced over the whole network!

While we're at it, bin the idea of using the hard shoulder in peak times. Some people are just too dumb to get it! The amount of times i've seen people driving up the 'shoulder when the signs aren't lit saying they can because they've confused is untrue! Scarey stuff!

[volvorocks]

I would say that it would be much better to (1) raise the speed limits on most UK motorways and dual carriageways after having improved the road surfaces, and then (2) direct the slowpokes to alternative routes. (3) Use the speed limits as guidelines, rather than absolutes. For example, drivers on the autobahns in Germany routinely drive at 160 km/h even though the signs say 120 km/h and aren't chased down and prosecuted for it.Yes indeed improve the roads first , although most drivers would simply ignore "recommended" speed limits and speed like crazy

Coming back from Oxford on the M40 this weekend I was enraged at the staggeringly HIGH number of motorists pottering along at 40 - 50 miles per hour in a 70 mph zone! And many of them had decided to take up residence in the middle lane, with 3 or 4 brave ones occupying the outside (third) lane at various intervals. Oh for a big snow plow when one needs it!
See the centre lane hogging post here. (http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?p=990741#post990741)..!!!


I am of the opinion that much of the congestion on certain roads and motorways is due to the fact that too many people are hell bent at driving below the speed limit. No wonder people speed when they finally get a bit of clear road.Yes indeed people may go un-neccessarily slow causing bunching in an outer overtaking lane with peeps braking and causing a domino effect with the resultant traffic jam that ensues

We moralise way too much over the use of speed in this country. There is nothing wrong with driving fast, as long as one is not reckless. When one attends a fatal a fatal RTA that involved speed and has to inform next of kin one tends to evaluate speed in a different way from then on.Maybe one could argue that say 90mph is not "reckless" until an accident occurs

Have outlined some answers in blue.
You have some good points though.

[volvorocks]

A traffic officer once told me, he wouldnt look twice at something like a Jag, BMW, Merc etc cruising along at a steady 80/85! But a 1.0 Metro hammering at 75/80 would catch his attention.

Hi Weble

Both would catch my attention but for different reasons and would be worthy of a pull.A Police Officer does indeed look out for the high powered Jags Mercs BMW's. You would be suprised how many of these are uninsured.

Perhaps 80mph in the Jag would just escape although 85mph would not.

Regards

[XC60MY12]

Coming back from Oxford on the M40 this weekend I was enraged at the staggeringly HIGH number of motorists pottering along at 40 - 50 miles per hour in a 70 mph zone! And many of them had decided to take up residence in the middle lane, with 3 or 4 brave ones occupying the outside (third) lane at various intervals.

Clearly "Sunday" drivers. I've just driven from Reading to Glasgow via M4, A34, M40, M42, M6, M6 toll, A74, M74, M8. Cruise set to 70mph apart from a few tweaks to allow for quicker overtaking (75mph). I found a very large number of cars and vans were overtaking me, presumably not paying for the fuel themselves. This is a journey I do several times a year, never at weekends if I can help it and I'm always overtaken by many more vehicles than I pass. HGVs excepted, that is.

Just to be frivolous, you seem to have given the reason for those driving at 40 - 50 mph when you say that the state of the roads punishes those doing over 50. Don't they deserve your sympathy?

Finally, don't be "enraged", it'll give you wrinkles. :)

[Daim]

(3) Use the speed limits as guidelines, rather than absolutes. For example, drivers on the autobahns in Germany routinely drive at 160 km/h even though the signs say 120 km/h and aren't chased down and prosecuted for it.

That is unfortunately not right...

That is prosecuted highly! 3 months ban, 4 points etc.

You've got speed cameras everywhere and radar traps. At the same time thousands of civil police cars (unmarked), You can have signs saying "120 km/h" but below them will be something like "6-20" or "Werktags". Means: 6 am-8 pm or Mo-Fr. - exceeding speed limits here by that speed (40 km/h) results in a very high fine and loss of license!

[volvorocks]

That is unfortunately not right...

That is prosecuted highly! 3 months ban, 4 points etc.

You've got speed cameras everywhere and radar traps. At the same time thousands of civil police cars (unmarked), You can have signs saying "120 km/h" but below them will be something like "6-20" or "Werktags". Means: 6 am-8 pm or Mo-Fr. - exceeding speed limits here by that speed (40 km/h) results in a very high fine and loss of license!

Agree.I will second this.

A few years ago I was driving in Germany whilst staying in Waxweiler.

I was driving at 90kph in a 90kph zone. Or so I thought.

What I didnt realise was that if there is a residential area eg a house then the limit drops.

I was nicked for speeding doing 90kph in a "70kph" zone that I thought was 90kph.

The Police asked if I spoke German and I said no. I do though although it needs polishing.They laughed and joked about nicking "tourists" which was true as the German registered car that overtook me wasnt pulled.

The speed camera was in a grey wheelie bin further down the road.

I had to pay up despite me saying "no money" as they wanted to take the car off me or at the very least my laptop and cameras etc

Daim...is this allowed?

Grrrrrrrrr

[lillia]

That is unfortunately not right...

That is prosecuted highly! 3 months ban, 4 points etc.

You've got speed cameras everywhere and radar traps. At the same time thousands of civil police cars (unmarked), You can have signs saying "120 km/h" but below them will be something like "6-20" or "Werktags". Means: 6 am-8 pm or Mo-Fr. - exceeding speed limits here by that speed (40 km/h) results in a very high fine and loss of license!

Thanks for letting me know that! :) I have to admit that I have rarely driven below 130 km/h in Germany, and my normal speed there is 160 km/h. Sometimes a little bit higher. I have been limited to 80 km/h when there are roadworks on the A1, as there always are. Never, ever got a ticket and there have always been cars going faster than me. The conventional wisdom in Sweden is that you can (still) drive as fast as you want on the autobahn in Germany. We have never got our heads around the idea of limits there. Please don't tell the police! :rose:

[Daim]

Agree.I will second this.

A few years ago I was driving in Germany whilst staying in Waxweiler.

I was driving at 90kph in a 90kph zone. Or so I thought.

What I didnt realise was that if there is a residential area eg a house then the limit drops.

I was nicked for speeding doing 90kph in a "70kph" zone that I thought was 90kph.

The Police asked if I spoke German and I said no. I do though although it needs polishing.They laughed and joked about nicking "tourists" which was true as the German registered car that overtook me wasnt pulled.

The speed camera was in a grey wheelie bin further down the road.

I had to pay up despite me saying "no money" as they wanted to take the car off me or at the very least my laptop and cameras etc

Daim...is this allowed?

Grrrrrrrrr

Yes it is. European law! If I get caught speeding in the UK, they can claim off me the moment I am caught. As tourists have to pay more (your fine would have been about 25€ for a German or a German registered person) they tend to take them before...

Thanks for letting me know that! :) I have to admit that I have rarely driven below 130 km/h in Germany, and my normal speed there is 160 km/h. Sometimes a little bit higher. I have been limited to 80 km/h when there are roadworks on the A1, as there always are. Never, ever got a ticket and there have always been cars going faster than me. The conventional wisdom in Sweden is that you can (still) drive as fast as you want on the autobahn in Germany. We have never got our heads around the idea of limits there. Please don't tell the police! :rose:

The Autobahns are everything else than "unlimited". I live along the A1. Alongside Bremen, the Autobahns are limited to 120 km/h. Leave the state of Bremen, and the limit is PARTLY lifted. The A281 (in Bremen) is limited to 80 km/h. The A27 from Achim (Verden in Lower Saxony) is limited to 120 km/h. From the "Bremer Kreuz" (cross between A1 and A27) towards Hannover is no limit. The A28 (joining the A1) is limited for a long time to 100 km/h.

A lot of Autobahns have limits... But most will expire at certain times of the day! I even know of 1 Autobahn with a limit of 60 km/h - but that is due to the really bad conditions... Just because others are going faster, it doesn't mean that they won't track them down... ;) Like said, there are cameras everywhere. Alone in my area here around Bremen, there are something like 7 speed cameras which are fixed (non moveable). And then another 20 or so which are mobile! Again, like said, civil police cars... You'll be amazed what they tend to drive... Sometimes an old 5 series BMW, sometimes an Audi A4. Or even a Dacia Logan! Yes, I've seen a Dacia Logan police car!!

[T4Rick]

I was on the way back from kirby stephen a few month back doing 56mph empty with cruise control on and an artic flew past me doing at least 80, how i dont know and it was an english trailer and further down the road i saw the same artic tapping his brakes trying to scrub off some speed.There wasnt a prayer i could keep up or get near it

[prionailurus]

I would say that it would be much better to (1) raise the speed limits on most UK motorways and dual carriageways after having improved the road surfaces, and then (2) direct the slowpokes to alternative routes. (3) Use the speed limits as guidelines, rather than absolutes. For example, drivers on the autobahns in Germany routinely drive at 160 km/h even though the signs say 120 km/h and aren't chased down and prosecuted for it.

Coming back from Oxford on the M40 this weekend I was enraged at the staggeringly HIGH number of motorists pottering along at 40 - 50 miles per hour in a 70 mph zone! And many of them had decided to take up residence in the middle lane, with 3 or 4 brave ones occupying the outside (third) lane at various intervals. Oh for a big snow plow when one needs it!

Motorways are for people who want to get to places, not for sightseeing.

I am of the opinion that much of the congestion on certain roads and motorways is due to the fact that too many people are hell bent at driving below the speed limit. No wonder people speed when they finally get a bit of clear road. I am usually calm on the roads, but am finding it harder to suppress my irritation at people who will be doing 38 mph on a 40 mph road, only to slam on the brakes and slow down to 30 mph the minute they see a sign with a camera on it.

We moralise way too much over the use of speed in this country. There is nothing wrong with driving fast, as long as one is not reckless.

While I'm ranting, I find that the roads appear to be designed to punish anyone who wants to go above 50 mph. The outside lanes, in particular, appear to have been deliberately designed to guarantee a harsh, bumpy ride. The UK needs to facilitate road users, not punish them. The only ones benefiting from poor road surfaces at the moment are petrol stations and car mechanics (oh and the tax man).

I agree with this just about entirely, but the bit I've bolded...thank #### for that, I'm not the only one! Why do people do this. The number of times I've screamed in the car the words "what you braking for it's a f##king 40 limit man, shift". Then they look at you with anger because you flashed them once to remind them that they're holding up the car behind by doing 25% less than the limit.

[SonyVaio]

Why do people do this. The number of times I've screamed in the car the words "what you braking for it's a f##king 40 limit man, shift". Then they look at you with anger because you flashed them once to remind them that they're holding up the car behind by doing 25% less than the limit.

It's quite simply because they are the ones that are not paying any attention to what they are doing. Complete thumb up bum with their head in the clouds and then get all spooked because they've seen a camera sign, then it's case of 'BRAKE!!' as they say to themselves 'where am I' 'how fast am I going' 'what's the speed limit' and because they havn't got a bloody clue what they are doing they BRAKE!

Yes I'm a +1 about being iritated by these type of drivers. If they just paid more attention to driving and doing what they are supposed to be doing on the road, it would be far better for all.

:star-wars-smiley-01

[fenton_jd]

It's virtually impossible to use cruise control on UK motorways.

You set your cruise control to 70, yet every lane you try to go in theres a problem:

70mph in the outside lane? - HGVs limited to 55mph block your path
70mph in the middle lane? - HGVs overtaking outside lane HGVs at 56mph
70mph in the inside lane? - BMWs/Audi's fly up behind you at 90mph till you move.

[volvorocks]

70mph in the outside lane? - HGVs limited to 55mph block your path
70mph in the middle lane? - HGVs overtaking outside lane HGVs at 56mph
70mph in the inside lane? - BMWs/Audi's fly up behind you at 90mph till you move.

Dont you mean

70mph in the inside lane? - HGVs limited to 55mph block your path
70mph in the middle lane? - HGVs overtaking inside lane HGVs at 56mph
70mph in the outside lane? - BMWs/Audi's fly up behind you at 90mph till you move.

[Chrali]

Dont you mean

70mph in the inside lane? - HGVs limited to 55mph block your path
70mph in the middle lane? - HGVs overtaking inside lane HGVs at 56mph
70mph in the outside lane? - BMWs/Audi's fly up behind you at 90mph till you move.

Nah I think hes got it spot on, especially BMW drivers :)

[arcturus]

I would say that it would be much better to (1) raise the speed limits on most UK motorways and dual carriageways after having improved the road surfaces, and then (2) direct the slowpokes to alternative routes. (3) Use the speed limits as guidelines, rather than absolutes. For example, drivers on the autobahns in Germany routinely drive at 160 km/h even though the signs say 120 km/h and aren't chased down and prosecuted for it.

Coming back from Oxford on the M40 this weekend I was enraged at the staggeringly HIGH number of motorists pottering along at 40 - 50 miles per hour in a 70 mph zone! And many of them had decided to take up residence in the middle lane, with 3 or 4 brave ones occupying the outside (third) lane at various intervals. Oh for a big snow plow when one needs it!

Motorways are for people who want to get to places, not for sightseeing.

I am of the opinion that much of the congestion on certain roads and motorways is due to the fact that too many people are hell bent at driving below the speed limit. No wonder people speed when they finally get a bit of clear road. I am usually calm on the roads, but am finding it harder to suppress my irritation at people who will be doing 38 mph on a 40 mph road, only to slam on the brakes and slow down to 30 mph the minute they see a sign with a camera on it.

We moralise way too much over the use of speed in this country. There is nothing wrong with driving fast, as long as one is not reckless.

While I'm ranting, I find that the roads appear to be designed to punish anyone who wants to go above 50 mph. The outside lanes, in particular, appear to have been deliberately designed to guarantee a harsh, bumpy ride. The UK needs to facilitate road users, not punish them. The only ones benefiting from poor road surfaces at the moment are petrol stations and car mechanics (oh and the tax man).

As has been stated ad nauseum on this forum, it's a maximum not a target

[christheancient]

I would like people to see this video - which somebody sent me. It is, sort of, in two parts, urban road speeding and open road speeding.

The only comment I make is that the distances quoted in the film ar braking distance only... not overall stopping distances.

http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/christheancient/speed/

[SonyVaio]

As has been stated ad nauseum on this forum, it's a maximum not a target

Your right it may be a maximum and not a target but if these people would also follow the rules and regulations of the road 'Road Traffic Act' and its practical application 'Highway Code' then there would a lot less pee'd off people on the road. Just pass the vehicle you are overtaking and move back to the left hand lane and get out the way for faster moving traffic?? How hard can it be? Works really well in a lot of other countries. I do think it perfectly acceptable in slow moving or queuing traffic.

The self righteous tw*ts that think it is their job to police the road and sit holding everyone up just so they can sit smug and smile to them self, relishing in the fact that they know they are just pi**ing everyone off behind them or causing them to illegal maneuvers by undertaking.

In reality these people sit hogging the middle/outside lanes sitting at bang on 70 or under 'ON THEIR SPEEDO', the fact is their Speedo is anything up to 10% inaccurate so in reality are only doing 64MPH!!

It' is about time these people got a life and stopped endangering other road users by their ridiculous actions by causing frustration and impatience in other road users. These are also the same people that will deliberately speed up and often in excess of the limit (when it suits them) just to ensure you can't pass on the inside, once again only to boost their self righteous ego.

:star-wars-smiley-01

[Andy Northface]

I asked a traffic cop this a few years ago and he said he " 70mph is about right,because its 70 most people do 75-80.If it was 80 most people would do 85-90,and most people are not capable of driving responsibly at that speed".

I myself drive at 65-75mph,because that's the speed I feel comfortable with.If I had lived in Germany maybe I would feel more comfortable at 90mph. So maybe more driving education?

[volvorocks]

I would like people to see this video - which somebody sent me. It is, sort of, in two parts, urban road speeding and open road speeding.

The only comment I make is that the distances quoted in the film ar braking distance only... not overall stopping distances.

http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/christheancient/speed/

Hi Christheancient

Yes very good educational video that.

I am pleased to see that TVP had the sense "for safety reasons to place the grey car out of the direct path of the test car"...!!!

Whats quite worrying and what the motoring public may not be aware of is that Police vehicles are tip top maintained with great tyres and brakes whereas their own vehicles may not be so meticulously maintained and thus their stopping distances would be even worse with the resultant higher speed impacts and consequences.

The 30mph part is indeed food for thought and is one such reason I tend to drive at 30 on the nail on the speedo as this is generally 28mph. I go even slower in heavily congested urban areas and school areas although on some long wide empty roads 30mph may be inappropriate when 40mph would be fine. There was one road I knew that used to be a 40 and was reduced to 30 and there were more accidents with pedestrians and cyclists etc possibly due to the fact that the pedestrians were prepared to take greater risk when crossing etc due to the lower limit whereas at 40 they wouldnt

Regards

[stephend]

I would like people to see this video - which somebody sent me. It is, sort of, in two parts, urban road speeding and open road speeding.

The only comment I make is that the distances quoted in the film ar braking distance only... not overall stopping distances.

http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/christheancient/speed/

Thought-provoking - but there's a logical flaw in the argument used to favour 30 over 40 mph, which is that you could make the same argument to favour 20 over 30, just by moving the cardboard figure correspondingly closer. So the choice of "safe" urban speed, in that sense, is arbitrary. Actually, I do buy that 20 might be a better choice in some urban areas, and a 20 mph limit has been applied on some roads in central Cambridge. But most people are simply ignoring it, and the police aren't enforcing it because they haven't the resources.

The film is very good on showing how modest increases in speed make big differences in stopping distance. And that's on a dry road with a car in A1 condition with a skilled driver under controlled conditions.

Top Gear, in the pre-Clarkson era, did a film about stopping distances which was perhaps more thought-provoking. They got a group of people to estimate the distance they could stop in. Then they set cardboard figures up at those distances to see how realistic the estimates were. You can guess what happened: only one figure wasn't hit, and some were hit quite hard. The people who'd made the estimates were pretty shocked at just how far off their judgement had been. I can't remember if they then repeated the exercise after a few drinks - maybe that was a separate film.

I remember a teacher at school telling me how, in his first few months driving, he'd rear-ended a car at a junction. Low-speed impact, but still injured his knees, and shocked him deeply. He reckoned everyone should have a minor accident early on to knock any tendencies to be a t0sser out of them. I think he had a point.

[volvorocks]

I asked a traffic cop this a few years ago and he said he " 70mph is about right,because its 70 most people do 75-80.If it was 80 most people would do 85-90,and most people are not capable of driving responsibly at that speed".

I myself drive at 65-75mph,because that's the speed I feel comfortable with.If I had lived in Germany maybe I would feel more comfortable at 90mph. So maybe more driving education?


A lot of people tend to pop along at 90mph in UK as well.

I do tend to agree with you although if the speed limit is raised to 80mph with strict enforcement (cameras / marked units etc) and people realise that this is the limit as oppose to them thinking they are "allowed" a margin "so its ok I do 92mph on the clock" then in all truth I do believe the motorways will be a safer place as overall speeds could actually drop with the introduction of an 80mph limit.

People who only want to do 65-70 will continue to do so.
Mega speeders will understand that the limit is strenuously enforced and reduce their speed to 80 from their 90

Regards

[Daim]

I asked a traffic cop this a few years ago and he said he " 70mph is about right,because its 70 most people do 75-80.If it was 80 most people would do 85-90,and most people are not capable of driving responsibly at that speed".

I myself drive at 65-75mph,because that's the speed I feel comfortable with.If I had lived in Germany maybe I would feel more comfortable at 90mph. So maybe more driving education?

Well, the average German Autobahnspeed is around 120 km/h. Even with the amount of high speed sections... :)

[LankyTim]

I think that rather than playing around with the speed limits the answer is improved motorway training for learners AND certain drivers who think they know how to drive on a motorway, but actually don't.

[andy_d]

I think that rather than playing around with the speed limits the answer is improved motorway training for learners AND certain drivers who think they know how to drive on a motorway, but actually don't.

nearly
teaching people to Drive the car and control the car, extending the tests scope and the instructors teaching the Skill of driving a car, not "how to pass the test" would be imho a better Start point.

its the shockingly low general standards of driving ablility that need seeing to not "speed limits". tho the 20mph with huge "speed bumps" carp needs stopping, as does the "its the cars fault" instant blame mentality, no its the **** who decided to step/run out in front of the big moving heavy metal objects fault .
we as kids were taught "dont, that will kill you" ,,not "if you pick a posh motor you can get a good claim in"

[Daim]

nearly
teaching people to Drive the car and control the car, extending the tests scope and the instructors teaching the Skill of driving a car, not "how to pass the test" would be imho a better Start point.

its the shockingly low general standards of driving ablility that need seeing to not "speed limits". tho the 20mph with huge "speed bumps" carp needs stopping, as does the "its the cars fault" instant blame mentality, no its the **** who decided to step/run out in front of the big moving heavy metal objects fault .
we as kids were taught "dont, that will kill you" ,,not "if you pick a posh motor you can get a good claim in"

Yes indeed!

It sounds as if the world is getting close to the American way of life:

Don't need to read to be able to drive in the states. Right of way? First come, first go! Speeds? Max. 65 mph! Other road signs? Not many...

The thing I tend to see here, is that we have an "override" when it comes to road signs (in Germany, about every 10 m is one road sign...)...

[andy_d]

having driven here, in france/germany/holland/belgium / spain *shudder*
the General standards of UK drivers is crap.
we have the same cars as europe , very similar roads , similar weight of traffic BUT many many many more "morons"
uk motorway, you Will get some a##hole in a bmw / audi Trying to force his/her way past you when your at the speed limit, you Will get trucks pulling out regardless and trains of trucks driving Way to close to the one in front right on the speed limit
french autoroute ,, people move right ,dont hog the "outside" or "middle" lanes, Dont come screaming up your arris in a bmw/audi , lorrys just arent a problem
ditto holland/belgium
german autobahns, wow , people CAN drive at "high" speeds without being in a bmw/audi 4foot off the car in front flashing there lights and being a wonker. yes you get the odd one or two howling down the outside, but theres never the drama there is here, probably due to the Middle lane owners club not having a german branch....

Spain , Oh dear oh dear can i have an APC please, with tracks ?

germany, it snows , properly ,, people carry on and the whole country doesnt go into a panic when theres 3inches of snow

uk ,, ffs they panic if theres more than 1/2 inch, and some panic at that.
they cant Drive there bwm/audi in snow,, so rush out buying "winter tyres" then drive round like the utter wonker they are, beliving the "winter tyres" make everything alright.
the sheep bleat on about "need winter tyres" to cope,, no you dont, you need to learn how to drive properly.
then you get the "IAM" lot over here, nerds and wonkers with a Badge to prove they (think) can drive properly, most of them are so far up themselves and fannying about with the system to the point of rendering the basic tenants of the system pointless.

throw in the "chav mobiles" with there antics, skool run moms, the folk too short to see Over the steering wheel, white van man, bmw "superior nob" and audi "important nob" drivers, mix in a few who insist on limiting there vision with headwear, and the general brain dead briton,,, its nearly spain here, an APC would make a LOT of sense.

[Andy Northface]

uk ,, ffs they panic if theres more than 1/2 inch, and some panic at that.
they cant Drive there bwm/audi in snow,, so rush out buying "winter tyres" then drive round like the utter wonker they are, beliving the "winter tyres" make everything alright.
the sheep bleat on about "need winter tyres" to cope,, no you dont, you need to learn how to drive properly.


If I stayed at home last winter every time the radio and TV said "essential journeys only" my car wouldn't have moved from December till February!! I have noticed over the years as soon as there is a bit of rain you always see crashes,because people don't leave a big enough stopping distance and plough into the car in front!

A bit off topic,I am fed up to the back teeth of myopic pedestrians with their I-pods just stepping off into the road without even looking and I know from experience its always the cars fault.When these stupid people come out of their trances,they look at you as if its your fault.How can you expect people to drive competently when half of them can't even cross a road sensibly. :( Drivers have enough to watch when driving without thinking " is that ped' gonna leap into the front of my car! :I

[andy_d]

and if you DO leave a proper gap to the car infront, some #~#~#~#~ carves their way into it,,,


its gotten to the point where i am Seriously considering selling the car and geting http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/503/FV432APC.jpg
sod speeding in that, ,,you Try and clamp it,, and i DARE you to pull out infront of me,,or tailgate me.
and like the fighter pilots of WWII id have http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/07/no-bmw.jpg painted on the side for every 1 scrapped (same for audi/ white vans etc etc)

[Andy Northface]

On the subject of leaving a gap,when you come to a junction and you leave it clear,often some twonk will pull in front of you and block the Bl@@dy junction!!

[XC60MY12]

Dont you mean

70mph in the inside lane? - HGVs limited to 55mph block your path
70mph in the middle lane? - HGVs overtaking inside lane HGVs at 56mph
70mph in the outside lane? - BMWs/Audi's fly up behind you at 90mph till you move.

The roads are different in Shroppy.

[DaveNP]

Hi Chelle Belle and Craig!

Do see your point.

Would it be too much to expect though to expect the faster lorry to simply follow at the reduced speed for a little while until the slower lorry is back to 56mph?

TBH I have not come across that many lorries doing 45mph on the mway as the majority of HGV nowadays can maintain 56mph ish up and down hills loaded or unloaded due to their powerful engines. Yes ok they may have to drop a cog or 2 (or 3)..!!

My scenario from the previous page thus applies in this instance!
Why isn't it reasonable to expect the car driver (who can rapidly accelerate back up to 70mph+) to wait behind the truck????

[prionailurus]

A bit off topic,I am fed up to the back teeth of myopic pedestrians with their I-pods just stepping off into the road without even looking and I know from experience its always the cars fault.When these stupid people come out of their trances,they look at you as if its your fault.How can you expect people to drive competently when half of them can't even cross a road sensibly. :( Drivers have enough to watch when driving without thinking " is that ped' gonna leap into the front of my car! :I

Agreed, we've all no doubt seen the advert "if you hit me at 30 there's an 80% chance I'll live..."
I'm not saying its ok to hit ppl, but there should have been something on the advert that says "if you hit me, I shouldn't have been on the road, I should have waited, that metal box is a lot bigger and heavier than me, it'll hurt me"

[Bill_56]

Forgive me if this has been said before as I've not read every post in this thread, but the one thing I'd like to see above all is speed limits that were actually enforced, regardless of whether they be 70 or 80 or 100 or whatever. We all know that we're unlikely to get a ticket doing an indicated 75 or even 80 on the motorway, so we do so (at least, I do). I think the ACPO have even gone public with the "10% plus 2mph" allowance for camera penalties.

It's worse in towns. When the local council wants to slow traffic to 30mph at some blackspot, they know people will push their luck and do 5 or 10 mph over the limit, so the ridiculous '20mph zone' signs go up, even though they really only want to slow us to 30 mph.

But we could start the ball rolling ourselves guys... if everybody started obeying the speed limits, rather than pushing the boundaries, there would be a very good case for relaxing the limits. :)

[kebab10]

Does it also mean that if the motorway limit is raised, then the speed on dual carriageways will also be raised?

[volvorocks]

Does it also mean that if the motorway limit is raised, then the speed on dual carriageways will also be raised?

I opine that dual carriageways stay at 70mph with a 70mph sign

Regards

[Mr Sam]

are roads are far to overcrowded and full of idiots for faster speed limits to work


has anyone ever managed to get beyond 3rd gear on the M25 anyway?

[SonyVaio]

I opine that dual carriageways stay at 70mph with a 70mph sign

Regards

What's wrong the national speed limit sign??

You could still have motorways at 80 and national speed for dual carriageway @ 70 still with the current signage.

:star-wars-smiley-01

[volvorocks]

What's wrong the national speed limit sign??

You could still have motorways at 80 and national speed for dual carriageway @ 70 still with the current signage.

:star-wars-smiley-01

hi

Only prob with this is National Speed limit sign means 70mph as per motorway max so people may think such a sign on a dual carriageway where the speed limit would be 70mph under "new rules" would be the same as on motorways which would be 80mph under "new rules"

I may be wrong in my interpretation though

Regards

[christheancient]

hi

Only prob with this is National Speed limit sign means 70mph as per motorway max so people may think such a sign on a dual carriageway where the speed limit would be 70mph under "new rules" would be the same as on motorways which would be 80mph under "new rules"

I may be wrong in my interpretation though

Regards

The 'National Speed Limit' sign means just that. In The Highway Code, you can see that different vehicles are subject to different speed limits on different roads not subject to a general speed limit such as 30mph... because there are so many different limits. Therefore, it would just remain to change motor cars on motorways limit to 80mph

[volvorocks]

The 'National Speed Limit' sign means just that. In The Highway Code, you can see that different vehicles are subject to different speed limits on different roads not subject to a general speed limit such as 30mph... because there are so many different limits. Therefore, it would just remain to change motor cars on motorways limit to 80mph


Yes

Thanks for that.Didnt think of that.

Like 60mph on a single carriageway and 70mph on a dual carriage way.Less for alternative vehicles.

However if the motorway was 80mph would the dual carriageway limit with a National Speed Limit sign not also indicate it was 80mph.

I dont know

[mikealder]

The National Speed Limit needs addressing to be honest, try driving along "Dip Sh*t Alley" otherwise known as the A17, HGV's going along at 40 with cars at 60 assuming they all stick to the speed limit, add in some poor weather and bad judgement for overtaking and the resultant head on smash leaves quite a mess, sadly its not a rare occurance on the road I picked out.

Motorways should be 80 and enforced, major roads that are currently National Speed limit should be changed to 50 (split the difference between PLG and HGV) this should go some way to reduce accident rates, the weather should also be a factor though with the max speed being lowered when its raining/ fog/ snow etc.

Headlights (not some stupid sidelight) should also be manditory on all M and A class roads at all times, this would prevent the idiot in the silver car doing 90 in heavy rain with no lights on (ever seen this and wonder how they survive) - Mike

[mike210970]

agree with mike on the A roads 50 for all vehicles 80 on a motorway in dry weather 65 in wet weather and i dont see any reason why dual carriageways cant be 80 aswell the m18 is 2 lane for most of its length and i'd like to see lorries banned from the outside lane on 2 lane motorway one doing 55.8 one doing 55.9 and he has to overtake neither will back down so yopur stuck behind them for about 5 miles

[The Hooded Claw]

SSShhhh!!!! .... Just heard this from a "Person" In the Know ....

Transport Sec Phillip Hammond Set to Announce the UPPING of Motorway Speed Limit to 80 MPH in the House of Commons on Monday Morning (3rd Oct 2011)

[andy_d]

SSShhhh!!!! .... Just heard this from a "Person" In the Know ....

Transport Sec Phillip Hammond Set to Announce the UPPING of Motorway Speed Limit to 80 MPH in the House of Commons on Monday Morning (3rd Oct 2011)

for real ??


i guess they realised they can get Even more £££ from fuel duty if everyone does 80..... cos thats the only reason they'd change it

[The Hooded Claw]

for real ??


i guess they realised they can get Even more £££ from fuel duty if everyone does 80..... cos thats the only reason they'd change it

FER REAL!!! (came from Chris Ship at ITN News)

Transport Secretary sources confirm Hammond to announce plans on Monday to up speed limit from 70 to 80mph on motorways

[Andy Northface]

As an ex biker I concur with MikeAlder about silver cars! In most conditions they are just about invisible!! Even SWIMBO has commented how they just seem to blend into the road!!

[Andy Northface]

Just been on Radio 2 about the government proposals to raise the limit to 80mph on the motorway. The group B.R.A.K.E is against it saying it will lead to more deaths on the road.

[FireEngine]

Volvorocks you have me worried.

You started this thread and have been very vociferous about speed limits but until yesterday were ignorant of the meaning of important road signs and the constraints they impose on you on different types of road.

Which brings me to my main point; education.

Although learners have to go through much more stringent education and testing than I did in the 70s, none of it prepares them for motorway driving. And it's not just newly qualified drivers. Motorway driving is fundamentally different from normal road driving and clearly large numbers of people don't understand it.

Does anyone on here have a copy of the latest Highway Code and if so, have they bothered to read it? Rules / laws change and are reflected in it. There is an on-line version too but according to the web site, the printed copy is law.

Which poses another question; If the minister announces a change on Monday next, how are we 'Officially' notified of it?

The DfT helpline haven't a clue:thumbs_down:

[arcturus]

agree with mike on the A roads 50 for all vehicles 80 on a motorway in dry weather 65 in wet weather and i dont see any reason why dual carriageways cant be 80 aswell the m18 is 2 lane for most of its length and i'd like to see lorries banned from the outside lane on 2 lane motorway one doing 55.8 one doing 55.9 and he has to overtake neither will back down so yopur stuck behind them for about 5 miles

Motorways don't have junctions roundabouts etc like dual cariageways, there are restrictions on how tight bends should be, in other words designed to be traveled on at a fairly high speed. Dual cariage ways are different. They are designed to assist trafic flow and not necesseraly at high speeds.

[christheancient]

I have noticed a 'creeping in' of thoughts on different speed limits when roads are wet.

To be honest, I agree with those sentiments. I have driven in countries where those rules apply - and it seems to work. One good variation on the theme of wet is turnpikes in New York State. The toll booths have a reminder... "Windshield Wipers On ... Lights On"

But it beggars the question... How wet is wet? To some it might be anything from mildly moist upwards to monsoon type rain! And who will be the final arbiter?

I shall now go and lie down as my brain is beginning to hurt. :hidesbehindsofa:

[volvorocks]

Volvorocks you have me worried.

You started this thread and have been very vociferous about speed limits but until yesterday were ignorant of the meaning of important road signs and the constraints they impose on you on different types of road.

Hi FireEngine

No need to be worried although see your point!!

Ive simply always treated the National Speed Limit sign as 60mph on singles and 70mph on dual carriageways. I know it means different speed limits for different vehicles eg lorries etc although its never really crossed my mind as I dont drive a lorry!!

Yes I think I know most road signs , perhaps not all though , and probably if we are all honest most of us are the same.

Perhaps you can tell me the full meaning of the national speed limit in addition to mine above:)

Cheers

[tt82]

Hi FireEngine

No need to be worried although see your point!!

Ive simply always treated the National Speed Limit sign as 60mph on singles and 70mph on dual carriageways. I know it means different speed limits for different vehicles eg lorries etc although its never really crossed my mind as I dont drive a lorry!!

Yes I think I know most road signs , perhaps not all though , and probably if we are all honest most of us are the same.

Perhaps you can tell me the full meaning of the national speed limit in addition to mine above:)

Cheers

I think the main question is can people actually tell what constitutes as a "Dual Carriageway"?

[volvorocks]

I think the main question is can people actually tell what constitutes as a "Dual Carriageway"?

Ive had this thought.

Years ago I considered anything that had 2 lanes was a dual carriage way and thus 70mph National limit applied.

However I later learnt that to really be a dual carriage way it had to have a crash barrier in between or something like that.

Good question.

[volvorocks]

......which also leads me onto the question if a 2 lane carriage way doesnt have the crash barrier seperating the traffic travelling in different directions then 60mph applies..??....although what about say a 100 yard stretch of that 2 lane carriageway that does have the barrier - would it be 70mph for a 100yards and then back to say 60mph?

(talking just about a car here,not HGV or towing etc)

[tt82]

Yes thats exactly right. When there is a central reservation then it is 70mph for however long the central reservation is there, be it 100 yards or 100 miles..

[volvorocks]

I think the main question is can people actually tell what constitutes as a "Dual Carriageway"?

Hi tt82

I think your question could give rise to an interesting discussion about what we all actually know and what we think we know!!

I passed a driving test around the time the wheel was invented…lol …and to be honest never really read the Highway Code again until I was teaching people to drive.

It transpired that my knowledge of the Highway Code wasn’t as good as I thought so I read it again a few times.

My own personal view is that driving in an orderly manner with respect for others and with common sense is as good as if not better than simply knowing the Highway Code “academically” so to speak Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting it’s a good idea to be absolutely wholly and utterly clueless about signs and regulations - its just like in a job there is a big gap between being qualified (ie done the exam) and having the experience. It’s the putting into practice that is important.

When I was teaching people to drive.I was of the view that when a bus is say parked at the roadside,it would be a good idea to indicate whilst passing especially if such manoeuvre meant one would cross the centre line a bit, simply to let other oncoming road users see that I may be a little on their side. This apparently is wrong , as apparently by my indicating it could mean to following users that I was turning right!

Also at junctions or traffic lights I was of the view that generally speaking one places the car in neutral and applies the handbrake. This I was informed was apparently wrong - but what about the "dont sit with your brake lights on" rule...????

Its like headlight flashing - the French for example use this correctly in so far as “ here I am be aware of me im coming through” yet I would imagine most of us use headlamp flash as a means to give way to another road user. Again this is apparently incorrect. Same goes for horn use.

Take for example when an emergency vehicle is approaching you when stopped at red lights - what do you do - obey the Highway Code and do not move, possibly getting nicked for “obstructing a police officer in the course of his duty” - or go through on red to satisfy the “do not obstruct the police” rule only to get nicked for jumping a red..!!!! Either way you cant win..lol

I think at times the Highway Code may be a contradiction in terms and especially so when set against common sense.

Food for thought

Regards

ps I bet we all have done 70mph on a dual carriage way that technically isnt a dual carriage way..!!!!!

[Michael J]

Take for example when an emergency vehicle is approaching you when stopped at red lights - what do you do - obey the Highway Code and do not move, possibly getting nicked for “obstructing a police officer in the course of his duty” - or go through on red to satisfy the “do not obstruct the police” rule only to get nicked for jumping a red..!!!! Either way you cant win..lol

The emergency vehicle (blue lights flashing) can find it's way past on the other side of the road.

[tt82]

Hi tt82

I think your question could give rise to an interesting discussion about what we all actually know and what we think we know!!

I passed a driving test around the time the wheel was invented…lol …and to be honest never really read the Highway Code again until I was teaching people to drive.

It transpired that my knowledge of the Highway Code wasn’t as good as I thought so I read it again a few times.

My own personal view is that driving in an orderly manner with respect for others and with common sense is as good as if not better than simply knowing the Highway Code “academically” so to speak Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting it’s a good idea to be absolutely wholly and utterly clueless about signs and regulations - its just like in a job there is a big gap between being qualified (ie done the exam) and having the experience. It’s the putting into practice that is important.

Well if we all drove in accordance with the Highway code, there would be no accidents, no road rage and the pigs would fly. But yes your are right in when you say we should all just try to be a bit more courteous to each other.

When I was teaching people to drive.I was of the view that when a bus is say parked at the roadside,it would be a good idea to indicate whilst passing especially if such manoeuvre meant one would cross the centre line a bit, simply to let other oncoming road users see that I may be a little on their side. This apparently is wrong , as apparently by my indicating it could mean to following users that I was turning right!

I think this is only wrong if there is a junction on the right hand side, as it may give mixed signals ie, bus driver thinks your turning right and pulls out. Also how long did you leave it indicating for? Personally I would have thought that a couple of flashes of the bulb as you cross the centre line is all that is needed. Then a couple of left flashes as you return to your lane.

Also at junctions or traffic lights I was of the view that generally speaking one places the car in neutral and applies the handbrake. This I was informed was apparently wrong - but what about the "dont sit with your brake lights on" rule...????

Its HANDBRAKE FIRST and then into neutral. And then gear before releasing handbrake. Also the highway code states you should leave your foot on the brake until someone pulls up behind you, and then remove it so as not to dazzle them. Rule 114
(http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070302)

Its like headlight flashing - the French for example use this correctly in so far as “ here I am be aware of me im coming through” yet I would imagine most of us use headlamp flash as a means to give way to another road user. Again this is apparently incorrect. Same goes for horn use.

Instant fail I believe if you do it on a test buy yes flashing headlights should only be used to warn of your presence. There was a big scam a while back with people flashing other drivers into/out of junctions and then driving into them. Rules 110 - 112 (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070289)

Take for example when an emergency vehicle is approaching you when stopped at red lights - what do you do - obey the Highway Code and do not move, possibly getting nicked for “obstructing a police officer in the course of his duty” - or go through on red to satisfy the “do not obstruct the police” rule only to get nicked for jumping a red..!!!! Either way you cant win..lol

All comes down to common sense. By all means pass through a red light to assist an emegency vehicle but only if it can be done safely. I dont think you'd ever be done for obstructing but I suppose some would rather you do nothing then make rash moves infront them.

A personal experience of mine - I was in Wales with friends on motorbikes, as we were passing over a dam (for lack of a better word) a police car appeared behind me. Our flow of traffic was slow moving and the opposite lane was stop/start. The road was very narrow with dry stone walls on either side.
I saw a gap in the oncoming traffic, indicated right and pulled in there to allow the police car past. When I rejoined a friend carrying a pillion was infront of the police car and was travelling inches from the wall in an attempt to let the police car pass, the police car obviously couldnt due to the tight room and could have caused an accident if he did try.
Going right instead of left was a far better option but it just never crossed his mind. I imagine it would be the same for a lot of other road users.

I think at times the Highway Code may be a contradiction in terms and especially so when set against common sense.

Food for thought

Regards



I dont think common sense is the right word, its just common usuage. Leading back to the MLOC thread, just because so many people stay in the middle lane when on motorways doesnt mean it is correct and the highway code is wrong.

ps I bet we all have done 70mph on a dual carriage way that technically isnt a dual carriage way..!!!!!

Who can say they havent broken a speed limit full stop. I know I cant.

[christheancient]

Hi tt82

When I was teaching people to drive.I was of the view that when a bus is say parked at the roadside,it would be a good idea to indicate whilst passing especially if such manoeuvre meant one would cross the centre line a bit, simply to let other oncoming road users see that I may be a little on their side. This apparently is wrong , as apparently by my indicating it could mean to following users that I was turning right!
The bottom line with indicators must be on the lines of... 'Is my indication of benefit to another user?' If it is obvious that you are going to pull round a bus which everybody else can see...?'


Its like headlight flashing - the French for example use this correctly in so far as “ here I am be aware of me im coming through” yet I would imagine most of us use headlamp flash as a means to give way to another road user. Again this is apparently incorrect. Same goes for horn use.

The Highway Code is quite explicit on the use of the use of headlamp flashers are in 'that they serve the same purpose as a horn... they are to warn other vehicles of your presence.'


Take for example when an emergency vehicle is approaching you when stopped at red lights - what do you do - obey the Highway Code and do not move, possibly getting nicked for “obstructing a police officer in the course of his duty” - or go through on red to satisfy the “do not obstruct the police” rule only to get nicked for jumping a red..!!!! Either way you cant win..lol

The law is quite explicit. It is illegal to pass a red light. A properly trained blue light driver is trained to not bully other road users into breaking the law. In fact the modern trend with blue light drivers' training is that they should turn off their horns/sirens or whatever to avoid 'persuading' other drivers to perform a stupid action out of panic.


I think at times the Highway Code may be a contradiction in terms and especially so when set against common sense.

I don't. If one is aware that items marked as "must" or "must not", the matter is a legal requirement and that "should" and "should not" are matters of common sense that a judge or magistrate should bear in mind in the event of a court case, it does not become a contradiction in terms in my mind.

I would not be as draconian (or unrealistic) as to expect forcing people to read the Highway Code on a regular basis; but if they wish to remain ignorant as to the ramifications of it thorough negligence, then they have that right.

It is through mostly sensible legislation and adjustments to the Highway Code that, statistically, we are killing less people on the roads of Great Britain each year. In 1980, which was European Road Safety Year, a campaign in which I did have active involvement, we killed 5935 people on the UK roads. In 2010, it was 1857! :GEEK:

/CtA steps down from soap box!

p.s. NOT taking any digs at any individuals here! Just using these bits as debating points!

[volvorocks]

Yes.

Tend to agree with Christheancient and tt82 and yes tt82 handbrake first then into neutral - I know I said neutral then handbrake which is incorrect although just suggesting the "I am stopped with handbrake on" as oppose to " stay with foot on clutch in gear"..lol

I also agree Christheancient with your "must" and "should" examples. Very true.

tt82

I believe your explanation of the "indicating to pass a parked bus may suggest that one is turning right and the bus may pull away" Good thought that and very true.

Also regarding the use of the term "common sense". I wouldnt consider centre lane hoggers to be exercising any form of common sense and the Highway Code is correct on this matter.

However if the Highway Code stated one should be a centre lane hogger I still wouldnt be one unless of course it was a must ie a legal requirement!! (god help us all if was made a reqyuirement!!!..lol)

Still believe that common sense must be exercised when driving , in fact on most things in life really.Even perhaps sometimes when a (silly) legal requirement dictates otherwise.

One example may be if one is driving within speed limits when another motorist starts pulling out and the safest thing to do may be to accelarate to get past and out of danger as oppose to brake (think tailgaters) only to be zapped by a Gatso. Still breaking the rules/Law yet pretty much may be considered common sense to be "speeding" Just a made up example of course and despite there being loads more silly laws cannot actually think of any silly legal requirements as my mind is blank - can anyone suggest any?

Regards

[tt82]

Yes.

Tend to agree with Christheancient and tt82 and yes tt82 handbrake first then into neutral - I know I said neutral then handbrake which is incorrect although just suggesting the "I am stopped with handbrake on" as oppose to " stay with foot on clutch in gear"..lol

The problem with that is that if you are rear ended, both your feet will come off the barake and clutch and the car will drive forward, possibly over the little girl who was walking over the crossing in front of your car. At least with the handbrake on and the car in neutral it will offer resistance to being pushed forward.

You could also consider wear on your clutch when holding it in. Maybe not the plates themselves but the thrust bearing for example.

I also agree Christheancient with your "must" and "should" examples. Very true.

tt82

I believe your explanation of the "indicating to pass a parked bus may suggest that one is turning right and the bus may pull away" Good thought that and very true.

Also regarding the use of the term "common sense". I wouldnt consider centre lane hoggers to be exercising any form of common sense and the Highway Code is correct on this matter.

However if the Highway Code stated one should be a centre lane hogger I still wouldnt be one unless of course it was a must ie a legal requirement!! (god help us all if was made a reqyuirement!!!..lol)

Still believe that common sense must be exercised when driving , in fact on most things in life really.Even perhaps sometimes when a (silly) legal requirement dictates otherwise.

One example may be if one is driving within speed limits when another motorist starts pulling out and the safest thing to do may be to accelarate to get past and out of danger as oppose to brake (think tailgaters) only to be zapped by a Gatso. Still breaking the rules/Law yet pretty much may be considered common sense to be "speeding" Just a made up example of course and despite there being loads more silly laws cannot actually think of any silly legal requirements as my mind is blank - can anyone suggest any?

Regards

I may have misconstrued what your were trying to explain earlier, perhaps some examples are needed but I dont see any highway code rule that isnt appropriate. As for the example above, this is where you get to you use your horn/lights. :teeth_smile: I understand what you are saying but lets alter the scenario slightly.

Your on a 2 lane single carriageway with traffic coming from the opposing direction. You are being followed closely by the car behind you when a car pulls out in front of you. Do you -

a) swerve around and hit an oncoming car.

b) brake hard and risk being hit from behind by the tailgater

The correct answer is neither. You would have to regulate your braking so that while you stop in time before hitting the car that has pulled out, you do give the tailgater time to brake as well.

However always remember this pearl of wisdom my driving instructer taught me. If your going to be involved in a collision, always hit the muppet who caused it and not some other innocent motorist. If you don't and hit another motorist instead, said muppet will drive away unoblivious/uncaring about the crash and you will be at fault for the insurance claim.









So in this situation you in a superior Volvo plow through the idiot who pulled out infront of you.

[christheancient]

...but lets alter the scenario slightly.

Your on a 2 lane single carriageway with traffic coming from the opposing direction. You are being followed closely by the car behind you when a car pulls out in front of you. Do you -

a) swerve around and hit an oncoming car.

b) brake hard and risk being hit from behind by the tailgater

The correct answer is neither. You would have to regulate your braking so that while you stop in time before hitting the car that has pulled out, you do give the tailgater time to brake as well.

However always remember this pearl of wisdom my driving instructer taught me. If your going to be involved in a collision, always hit the muppet who caused it and not some other innocent motorist.



A very logical answer!

But try telling your brain and reactions that at the time! I might be a tad difficult. But, not impossible.

The basic police drivers' rule (rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise!)... Always drive so that you can stop safely, in the distance you can see and on your side of the road. Might be difficult in the scenario you set!

I once scared my 'ex' though. We had driven out of the services onto a traffic light controlled roundabout that went down to the motorway. I was in the left-hand lane to go to the second exit (as marked with arrows). On my right was joined by an elderly gentleman (pot calling the kettle black here!) who had that air of not being 100% aware. And shall we be polite and say his car looked a little travel-stained and weary. (Just the sort of guy to endear himself to Keith (THC)).

Methinks... 'I bet that bu66er is going down the slip road'. Sure enough, the lights go green and he sets off to go down the slip road. Me, being me, a large lump of throttle and a polite toot on the horn as I shoot off ahead to avoid my nose being wiped.

My ex goes effing ballistic! Things on the lines of 'that was too aggressive, you might have scared him and caused an accident!' I politely pointed out that I had reckoned on what he was looking like doing (and did) and had it covered. The action I took avoided an accident. If I had just sat there and blown my horn at him as he removed my front wing and bumper by being a complete and utter tw@t, it would have taken all sorts of time to sort out the problem and the daft old bu66er would probably already have croaked it after realising he had had a crash - which, of course, would never have been his fault!

Two training adages come to mind...

The obvious one of "Always expect the unexpected."

Or

My favourite of "Drive for what you can't see - not what you can see."

[volvorocks]

The problem with that is that if you are rear ended, both your feet will come off the barake and clutch and the car will drive forward, possibly over the little girl who was walking over the crossing in front of your car. At least with the handbrake on and the car in neutral it will offer resistance to being pushed forward.

You could also consider wear on your clutch when holding it in. Maybe not the plates themselves but the thrust bearing for example.

Yep.

Thats what im saying.Thats why I am at the lights in neutral with handbrake on and not riding clutch!!!!

I was told by a driving instructor in conversation this was incorrect. I disagreed so I continue when I am at the lights to stay in neutral with handbrake on!!

Regards

[stephend]

The basic police drivers' rule (rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise!)... Always drive so that you can stop safely, in the distance you can see and on your side of the road. Might be difficult in the scenario you set!



Remember the old Roadcraft with the "10 Commandments" at the back? Wish they hadn't dropped them from the revised edition, I thought they were very wise. :)

[stephend]

Yep.

Thats what im saying.Thats why I am at the lights in neutral with handbrake on and not riding clutch!!!!

I was told by a driving instructor in conversation this was incorrect. I disagreed so I continue when I am at the lights to stay in neutral with handbrake on!!

Regards

What I was taught by the police was that holding it on the footbrake was ok for a brief stop; handbrake on and neutral was better for longer stops. That's generally what I do. Definitely good not to hold the clutch down for long periods: bad for the thrust bearing, I believe.

Actually, right at the start of the police demo drive that I was given was that we were waiting to pull out onto an urban dual carriageway, and the traffic was dense. The instructor put the handbrake on and gear in neutral, took his hands off the wheel and just rested them in his lap. Then when he spotted a gap approaching, back into gear just in time to pull out into the gap. Very relaxed, very tidy.

[christheancient]

Remember the old Roadcraft with the "10 Commandments" at the back? Wish they hadn't dropped them from the revised edition, I thought they were very wise. :)

Ditto!

I was told by a driving instructor in conversation this was incorrect. I disagreed so I continue when I am at the lights to stay in neutral with handbrake on!!

What I was taught by the police was that holding it on the footbrake was ok for a brief stop; handbrake on and neutral was better for longer stops. That's generally what I do. Definitely good not to hold the clutch down for long periods: bad for the thrust bearing, I believe.

My philosophy when I was an instructor - and followed by instructors I trained - was simple. "If the pause becomes a wait, use the handbrake". Of course there was the occasional smarty-pants had difficulty and wanted definitive lengths of time between pause and wait. It was simple. When they pulled up and didn't move, I'd ask them why they hadn't moved. The inevitable answer started with: "I'm waiting for such and such." QED!

Actually, right at the start of the police demo drive that I was given was that we were waiting to pull out onto an urban dual carriageway, and the traffic was dense. The instructor put the handbrake on and gear in neutral, took his hands off the wheel and just rested them in his lap. Then when he spotted a gap approaching, back into gear just in time to pull out into the gap. Very relaxed, very tidy.

I must admit that I would actually keep my hands on the wheel so that I could be deemed to be 'officially in control of the vehicle' if the unexpected did happen!

[tt82]

Ditto!



My philosophy when I was an instructor - and followed by instructors I trained - was simple. "If the pause becomes a wait, use the handbrake". Of course there was the occasional smarty-pants had difficulty and wanted definitive lengths of time between pause and wait. It was simple. When they pulled up and didn't move, I'd ask them why they hadn't moved. The inevitable answer started with: "I'm waiting for such and such." QED!



I must admit that I would actually keep my hands on the wheel so that I could be deemed to be 'officially in control of the vehicle' if the unexpected did happen!

Beat me to it. While I may not always practice it I have been taught to always have both hands on the wheel while stationary.

[stephend]

Beat me to it. While I may not always practice it I have been taught to always have both hands on the wheel while stationary.

One RoSPA observer (an ADI) taught me that. On the other hand, the police instructors taught me not to, and I don't. I can see why it might be especially appropriate for a driving instructor, though!

Gotta say, I've generally found police instructors to be quite pragmatic about some of the "rules". :)

[christheancient]

One RoSPA observer (an ADI) taught me that. On the other hand, the police instructors taught me not to, and I don't. I can see why it might be especially appropriate for a driving instructor, though!

Gotta say, I've generally found police instructors to be quite pragmatic about some of the "rules". :)

Some of the police do have a different world compared to ours!

I used to be a registered Fleet Driver Trainer and it could, at times, be right pain undoing some of the training offered by ex-plods... especially the advice on keeping the revs high and the gear low for best acceleration (and maximum fuel consumption.).

[stephend]

Some of the police do have a different world compared to ours!

I used to be a registered Fleet Driver Trainer and it could, at times, be right pain undoing some of the training offered by ex-plods... especially the advice on keeping the revs high and the gear low for best acceleration (and maximum fuel consumption.).

I can imagine! Not for nothing is Roadcraft known as the Bible to some individuals...

The first time I took the RoSPA test, I was marked down for hand-crossing on the steering wheel while manoeuvring out of a parking bay, and for overlapping braking and gearchanging (my habit is to declutch as I'm moving my right foot from the brake to the throttle, and not separating the two actions completely). Lo and behold, when they revised Roadcraft in 1994, suddenly hand-crossing was allowed for parking manoeuvres, and they'd relaxed the strictures on overlapping braking and gearchanging. Ho-hum.

I was also marked down for failing to make an overtake at one point. Ok, this was going uphill, with a stream of vehicles in front, round a left-hand curve. And I was driving a 1.0 litre Fiesta hire car, which I hadn't even driven before. The examiner was a police motorcyclist, actually a really nice bloke - but I think he hadn't driven a 1.0 litre Fiesta in a while...

And then there was double declutching...

On a more serious note, I still have a tension between "making progress", and being a bit more relaxed and saving fuel. I'm trying to do a bit less of the former and a bit more of the latter as I get older.