Drink Drivers

[volvorocks]

What should we do with drink drivers?

Is the law ok or should it be zero?

Even if its zero drink drivers will still drink and drive and some people will be penalised for having a single drink or a trifle etc

I myself personally do not drink and drive.

If you have had a tankful the night before are you aware the morning after?

If ive had a drink the night before I do not drive till the afternoon.......if at all..........


If I am out and have to drive next morning or from the pub ....I have a max of 1 pint of shandy (if that) eg half pint which will be out of the system when leaving the pub.....

I think drink drivers should get a minimum of 3 years prison with 3 years ban with mandatory £1000 fine. eg straight from pub.

Morning after should still be penalised although less?

Views welcome

[stevo48]

I think the law should change to zero alcohol if driving and tougher penalties for those caught and convicted.
I think the penalties you suggested should be reserved for extreme/repeat offenders, maybe some kind of penalty system that escalates if you re-offend resulting ultimately in a lifetime ban after the third offence.

[andy_d]

IF there is a limit, and your over it , Ban 5 years min , doesnt matter if its 2seconds after leaving the pub or next morning, your over = your banned.
if your stupid enough to do it a 2nd time, GAME OVER your banned, for life.

Should there be a "limit" ?
personal view is yes there should be a limit, 0%

and the SAME should apply to those caught "Drug Driving", you smoke weed and drive , your banned, do it twice ,your banned for life, same for the other illegal drugs.

Ditto the Same should apply to those that currently get away with it
footballers, "celebrities" , "mp's" and others..

1 law for all applied with No tolerance to everyone.
drink + drive = banned, drugs + drive = banned , twice = banned for life.

Caught driving after the 2nd proven time, 10years .

soon stop the morons who do it ,repeatedly often and more....

[SteveTDCi]

I think the limit should stay where it is, lowering isn't going to make a difference, all its going to do is catch people out the morning after, people that get caught drink driving now are usually way over the limit so putting the limit at zero will not effect them.

There should be a greater emphasis on others to stop people drinking, would you think its ok to get in a car with someone who has drank 5 pints ? as far as i'm concerned they are just as guilty. Pubs need to take more responsibility too, but only if they know someone is drinking. From what I can remember designated drivers in America get free soft drinks all night to encourage people from drink driving. This country is obsessed on making money, in most places its no different in price between a small coke and a pint, although i find lime and soda water much better and usually around 50p :)

I do agree that sentences for DD's should be tougher, but should be in relation to how far over the limit you are. Banning everyone for 3 years isn't going to help, its the same as driving without insurance, people that are willing to take the risk will always do so, however have an accident then the consequences should be higher, kill someone and it should be treated as manslaughter at the very least.

But then our judicial system is screwed anyway, its probably against someone's human rights to imprison them even if they kill someone.

Oh and my wifes's mum was killed by a drunk driver, on the wrong side of the road and over the limit, the sentence served was less than 2 years, 20 years on it still effects my wife....

[js7799]

Agreed with what's been said. Limit should be 0%. Here and in my country as well. Zero tolerance would go a long way toward lessening the problem. Unfortunately it will never be eliminated.

[t5_monkey]

simples - limit same as Europe which is about 50mg


basically if you can't be sure you're under after 1 pint, why bother drinking anyway.

[SonyVaio]

Okay this is always a controversial subject.

My opinion of this is as follows, it would be impossible to have a complete zero tolerance due to the amount of normal food etc... that contain alcohol. I mean some people
wouldn't even be able to use their mouth wash and as volvorocks says you may not even be able to eat some trifles.

I think the current level could do with being halved and down to say 15 per 100 as opposed to the 35 it is currently.

There definitely needs to be harsher punishments for DD. this can take many forms from monetary, community service, prison, points or a driving ban - or a combination of. The problem is; to rich people a monetary punishment may not really be much of a punishment, get a pink boiler suite on them and have them pick up dog poo off the beach or a park then it may be a different story.

An escalating scale of punishment should already exist but when you see it on programs like Police Camera Action and Police Interceptors when they have stopped a DD on their 5th DD offence and are awarded to pay £30 costs and 20hrs community service it absolutely beggars belief. Even if people are on benifits they should still be made to feel the effects of any punishment given.

As the bare minimum it should be (1st Offence):

10days ban - no ifs no buts and across the board
£200 fine - again across the board (deduct from benifits - they get too much anyway if they are able to DD)
20hrs Community Sevice - Barbie pink boiler suit and proper dirty jobs that serve the community
6 points

2nd Offence:

Double the 1st offence plus fine that is scalable to earnings and put the points up to 9

3rd offence:

5yr ban, min £1000 fine (Plus scalable), 100hrs Community service with a mandatory 6months in prison.

I don't have any stats but does anybody know what the statistics are for the different age groups that are caught for DD???

:star-wars-smiley-01

[SteveTDCi]

http://www.ukmotorists.com/drink%20driving%20explained.asp

[wooble]

0% limit is not workable for practical reasons, you'd be unable to drive to work in the morning after using mouthwash, and could conceivably provide a positive sample after eating certain foods (fermentation of foods in stomach = small amounts of alcohol in bloodstream). Personally, if I know I'm going to be driving I don't drink anything at all. What if somebody steps out in front of me, I can't stop in time and they're injured or worse? If I'd had a drink and stayed under the limit, I'd still be wondering forever if that one drink affected my reactions enough to have made a difference.

As far as the law's concerned, I think the current law is just adequate - usual 12 month ban for first offence, or 11 points in exceptional circumstances, usual 36 month ban for second offence, usual 5 year ban + 6 months prison for 3rd offence. If I was in charge, the third offence would be a permanent ban, and any drink driving offence would include a mandatory series of awareness classes (currently optional) and a retest before the license is regained. 2nd and 3rd offences should also include mandatory alcoholism counselling to be paid for by the offender.

[SonyVaio]

http://www.ukmotorists.com/drink%20driving%20explained.asp

Cheers Steve for pointing mein the right direction, the only thing is the stats are pretty old (2004).

It would be very interesting to see how these stats would match up to % of people on the road to the relevant age group too.

On those stats, there was a significant hike in DD in the 40 - 50 age group and as always the 20 to 25 age group was the highest. I think if the stats were delivered in a different way and they were relative to the percentage of roadusers in the certain brackets the real stats would show that the 40 - 50 age group relative to the number of 40 -50 drivers on the road were really the highest DD offenders by %.

My belief this is to do with the way DD was so common place a number of years ago before it was frowned upon in todays society. People never used to batter an eyelid at others DD and the older generation don't seem to be able to alter their ways so easily. Speeding is not far behind this either.

The newest and younger drivers now are better educated and current laws obviously clamp right down on them too and that's before we even get started on insurance! All this together makes them think twice but with slightly older generations it is a case of they think they will never get caught.

:star-wars-smiley-01

:star-wars-smiley-01

[Andy Northface]

Where I live its mainly drug driving as the charvas drive around high as Everest! Is there a check that can be done to check and prosecute like the Breathalyser?
IMO the drink drive limit should be just enough to rule out mouthwash or whatever.
I,too, like Andy d,,would like massive prison sentences for repeat offenders because, when you watch the police chase programs,they seem to catch the same faces week in,week out.No licenses doesn't seem to bother them and they don't pay the fines anyway! So lock them up..........For a long time.

Ps This would apply to people who repeatedly break the law.

[arcturus]

Maybe we should adopt the same criteria as applied to airline pilots?

[docjd]

0%-zero tolerance -longer prison sentences++

[volvorocks]

May also be a good idea to fit all cars with an Alco Lock.Yes there may be ways round it such as passenger blowing although if a driver was stopped and found to be over the limit then the passenger could be prosecuted as well.Not foolproof but helpful.

I think hardcore drink drivers will always flout the law irrespective of the limit and deserve appropriate punishment. General law abiding people may be over the limit the next morning due to lack of awareness rather than deliberate flouting.Still over though and whilst the affect on driving may be the same , there may be no intent.

A bit like throwing a cricket ball through someones window by accident whilst playing and injuring them and throwing the cricket ball on purpose to cause injury - same result although different intention
(yep I know you cannot compare cricket balls and drink driving,they are different,just a scenario!!)

[Bernard46]

What planet are these people on for heavens sake. And just before you all start raving again, my eldest son was killed in a road accident as a pedestrian!

So if you follow the rediculous suggestions given above and depart from the relatively sensible situation we have at present when are you going to jail people who smoke in cars (and drop blazing ash in their laps), go round with phones in their ears, listen to the radio whilst driving, have a screaming kid in the car, hold a conversation with passengers, spot a 'safety' camera and do any of the myriad other things that can distract attention whilst driving. We live in a dangerous world - its always been so from time immemorial when the animals used to grab you on your daily perambulation. Get real! If you don't like this country do what the puritans did and go and live somewhere else while the rest of the human race can get on with their lives.

[david philips]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Irishman walks into a bar in Dublin , orders three pints of Guinness and sits in the back of the room, drinking a sip out of each one in turn. When he finished all three, he comes back to the bar and orders three more.

The bartender says to him, "You know, a pint goes flat after I draw it; it would taste better if you bought one at a time."

The Irishman replies, "Well, you see, I have two brothers. One is in America , the other in Australia , and I'm here in Dublin . When we all left home, we promised that we'd drink this way to remember the days we all drank together."

The bartender admits that this is a nice custom, and leaves it there.

The Irishman becomes a regular in the bar and always drinks the same way: he orders three pints and drinks the three pints by taking drinks from each of them in turn.

One day, he comes in and orders two pints. All the other regulars in the bar notice and fall silent. When he comes back to the bar for the second round, the bartender says, "I don't want to intrude on your grief, but I wanted to offer my condolences for what must be, a truly great loss."

The Irishman looks confused for a moment, then a light dawns in his eye and he laughs. "Oh, no," he says, "Everyone is fine. It's me, I've given up drinking!"

[david philips]

drink drivers or drivers that are on drugs should be jailed whenever anyone starts driveing with a problim even should it be an anger related issue they are putting lives at risk they can destroy whole flamiles shatter lives leve people clippled ,if any one has been stopped for even a check and theres any trace of drink i think they should be made to go to a sean of an accident or accompany an ambulance driver untill they see the horror it can cause.

[Moosejaw]

I love these discussions on this forum. They always bring out the "hang 'em high brigade" who have never once transgressed any motoring laws, just like the one on tailgating is doing....

At the end of the day statistics show that only about 10% of crashes happen because of drink driving, so it's not a major problem when you realise that the other 90% are caused by perfectly sober dimwits who aren't subjected to the same sort of "X is OK, X+y is illegal" type of legislation.

Most people who drink drive would get done whether the limit was 10mg or 100mg because they simply aren't aware how alcohol affects them or are too p!ssed to care.
Lowering the limit to zero is very impractical, as is jailing or stringing up anyone who dares exceed whatever limit one individual thinks is appropriate, and lowering it by a small percentage is an excessive in futility, in the same way as raising the speed limit from 70 to 80mph.

The current legislation serves us well enough I think. Anyone who is incapable of driving safely at the current limit is unlikely to be much better with the proposed lower one.

[bigbadee]

I think the limit should stay where it is, lowering isn't going to make a difference, all its going to do is catch people out the morning after, people that get caught drink driving now are usually way over the limit so putting the limit at zero will not effect them.

There should be a greater emphasis on others to stop people drinking, would you think its ok to get in a car with someone who has drank 5 pints ? as far as i'm concerned they are just as guilty. Pubs need to take more responsibility too, but only if they know someone is drinking. From what I can remember designated drivers in America get free soft drinks all night to encourage people from drink driving. This country is obsessed on making money, in most places its no different in price between a small coke and a pint, although i find lime and soda water much better and usually around 50p :)

I do agree that sentences for DD's should be tougher, but should be in relation to how far over the limit you are. Banning everyone for 3 years isn't going to help, its the same as driving without insurance, people that are willing to take the risk will always do so, however have an accident then the consequences should be higher, kill someone and it should be treated as manslaughter at the very least.

But then our judicial system is screwed anyway, its probably against someone's human rights to imprison them even if they kill someone.

Oh and my wifes's mum was killed by a drunk driver, on the wrong side of the road and over the limit, the sentence served was less than 2 years, 20 years on it still effects my wife....

first sorry to hear about mother in law my wifes nan was killed by a drunk driver at 4pm as she crossed the road at a zebra crossing not only killed her but nearly distroyed a family and yep 2 years for the guilty and life for family as for punishment agree the people who drink and drive think they will never be caught so 0 tollerance will make no difference i would 1/2 year ban on first affence with fine court cost etc and when i say this i mean over limit not drunk unable to walk etc we should all be able to make one small mistake if caught 2nd time then i agree with many other people life ban and then hit where it hurts fine heavy fine if they cant pay take as much as possible for as long as possible i know a lot of people wont agree with me buy this is just my thoughts nothing else.

[Andy Northface]

Speaking for myself,I can't see a problem with the jailing of the people who are two or three times over the limit. Also when I was a lot younger I did foolishly drive when I had had one too many. I can only thank God that I never hurt anyone because there would have been no punishment severe enough.

[DesertDog]

Zero tolerance this neck of the woods.

Any expat caught drink driving (no alcohol at all is allowed) goes straight to jail pending trial, no bail. If guilty - and they normally are - it's more jail time, a very heavy fine and then deportation. The offender's car is confiscated.

[DWM]

I don't think we need a new law. Just better enforcement. Too many banned drivers just get back behind the wheel because they're relatively unlikely to be caught.

If you live in the country then unless you are already teetotal it's hard to be in favour of a 0% limit, even if it were workable.

[PeteB1]

There should be a greater emphasis on others to stop people drinking, would you think its ok to get in a car with someone who has drank 5 pints ? as far as i'm concerned they are just as guilty. Pubs need to take more responsibility too, but only if they know someone is drinking. From what I can remember designated drivers in America get free soft drinks all night to encourage people from drink driving. This country is obsessed on making money, in most places its no different in price between a small coke and a pint, although i find lime and soda water much better and usually around 50p :)

There are some pub/restaurants where you pay for the first glass of Pepsi etc but then get free topups for the rest of the evening, a responsible attitude by the industry. However, what is not responsible and typical of British Business Greed is that a bottle of Kaliber/Becks Blue etc (no duty) is as much if not more than a bottle of proper beer. Incredibly, a couple of weeks ago, I was in a pub in Shrewsbury with a friend and the price for a bottle of Kaliber (330ml) was more than a draught pint of beer!

This kind of blatant profiteering out of a sensible and responsible law should be banned with penalties for publicans/brewers breaking it of the same relative level on their livelihoods as those of people caught drink/driving. However, as usual, our MP's of whatever colour haven't got the bottle (no pun intended) to make and enforce such a law against their business mates.

[david philips]

i think the most dangerous part of any car is the nut behind the stearing wheel.:car:

[gibble king]

i watched cops with cameras last night and they got this guy drink drivung for the third time in as many months..his mate was holding his pint for him as he drove...a 7 year stretch would sort that and a lifetime ban .....

[Andy Northface]

i watched cops with cameras last night and they got this guy drink drivung for the third time in as many months..his mate was holding his pint for him as he drove...a 7 year stretch would sort that and a lifetime ban .....

Thing is,would a lifetime ban mean anything? Most of these imbeciles are already banned and just don't care.That's what the courts can't seem to grasp.These are the people who need taking off the roads.The ones who are banned and are driving with no insurance because they din't give a F~~K about anybody else apart from themselves.

[Joe Harding]

Seventeen year-olds with first car, (how on earth do they afford some of the souped up monstrosities?) complete with admiring gurlfrend and too much testosterone. Result? Racing up and down urban streets, doing handbrake turns and putting life and limb at risk.

Jeremy Clarkson et al encourage this reckless folly by their promoting of wretched speedster vehicles.

As said above, drinko drivers are more likely to utterly flout the law with massive over the limit inebriation and should be nailed accordingly. But the police turn a blind eye to the antics of the petrol heads.

[Oilydad]

I look at this from a different point of view.

I retire next month (Yippee), but for the past several years I have been involved heavily with units that look after people who have brain diseases and brain injuries. Some of our patients are in our care as the result of Drink Driving, whether they have been the driver, or passenger, or been hit by a drink driver as a pedestrian.

You need to see people like this to get the message across.

So, whilst accepting that there are always going to be selfish people who couldn't care less about any motoring laws and put other drivers lives at risk, I would support a Zero Limit. Nothing Less.

I would also put a ban on such drivers holding a licence again for at least 5 years, crush their cars, and fine them a flat rate of at least £5000 even if it meant taking that from benefits at source. That's because they chose to blatantly put other drivers lives at risk.

Drink Drivers have no place on the roads. They KILL and INJURE people, and take it from me, until you have seen the first hand effects that this wicked CRIME has on the families and victims of drink drivers, you have no idea of the end results.

Don't ever be complacent about this issue. Report them, and get them off the roads. I have, I will again, and I have taken keys off people too. NOBODY should be in charge of a motor vehicle when they have had a drink. Period. you can make all the excuses you like, but none of them are valid when it comes to KILLING or seriously injuring another human.

An accident is an accident. A drink drive accident never need have taken place.

Just pray to God that you never get that knock on the door to tell you that YOUR Wife, Son, Baby, Girlfriend, Sister, Brother or other family member has been mowed down by one of these people.

Throw the book at them.

[Joe Harding]

I look at this from a different point of view.

I retire next month (Yippee), but for the past several years I have been involved heavily with units that look after people who have brain diseases and brain injuries. Some of our patients are in our care as the result of Drink Driving, whether they have been the driver, or passenger, or been hit by a drink driver as a pedestrian.

You need to see people like this to get the message across.

So, whilst accepting that there are always going to be selfish people who couldn't care less about any motoring laws and put other drivers lives at risk, I would support a Zero Limit. Nothing Less.

I would also put a ban on such drivers holding a licence again for at least 5 years, crush their cars, and fine them a flat rate of at least £5000 even if it meant taking that from benefits at source. That's because they chose to blatantly put other drivers lives at risk.

Drink Drivers have no place on the roads. They KILL and INJURE people, and take it from me, until you have seen the first hand effects that this wicked CRIME has on the families and victims of drink drivers, you have no idea of the end results.

Don't ever be complacent about this issue. Report them, and get them off the roads. I have, I will again, and I have taken keys off people too. NOBODY should be in charge of a motor vehicle when they have had a drink. Period. you can make all the excuses you like, but none of them are valid when it comes to KILLING or seriously injuring another human.

An accident is an accident. A drink drive accident never need have taken place.

Just pray to God that you never get that knock on the door to tell you that YOUR Wife, Son, Baby, Girlfriend, Sister, Brother or other family member has been mowed down by one of these people.

Throw the book at them.

Would this apply likewise to above petrolheads?

[andy_d]

I look at this from a different point of view.

I retire next month (Yippee), but for the past several years I have been involved heavily with units that look after people who have brain diseases and brain injuries. Some of our patients are in our care as the result of Drink Driving, whether they have been the driver, or passenger, or been hit by a drink driver as a pedestrian.

You need to see people like this to get the message across.

So, whilst accepting that there are always going to be selfish people who couldn't care less about any motoring laws and put other drivers lives at risk, I would support a Zero Limit. Nothing Less.

I would also put a ban on such drivers holding a licence again for at least 5 years, crush their cars, and fine them a flat rate of at least £5000 even if it meant taking that from benefits at source. That's because they chose to blatantly put other drivers lives at risk.

Drink Drivers have no place on the roads. They KILL and INJURE people, and take it from me, until you have seen the first hand effects that this wicked CRIME has on the families and victims of drink drivers, you have no idea of the end results.

Don't ever be complacent about this issue. Report them, and get them off the roads. I have, I will again, and I have taken keys off people too. NOBODY should be in charge of a motor vehicle when they have had a drink. Period. you can make all the excuses you like, but none of them are valid when it comes to KILLING or seriously injuring another human.

An accident is an accident. A drink drive accident never need have taken place.

Just pray to God that you never get that knock on the door to tell you that YOUR Wife, Son, Baby, Girlfriend, Sister, Brother or other family member has been mowed down by one of these people.

Throw the book at them.

and the rest of the bookshelf + shelf itself.

id not Crush the car, but it Would be removed from their ownership, and if sound mechanically, Given to a retired person who was without transport.
to sell or use as They see fit.

this is what people Refuse to get into their heads, they drone on about "mouthwash" ,,"unfair" ,, well screw you, its Bloody "unfair" to kill or maim people due to you being a selfish t....t and driving when Way over the limit.
if the limit is 0 , then its simple , NO drink at all if you want to drive. dont like it, dont drink + drive, the whole "all well ,, " / "ah but,,,," is selfish crap.
0 limit leaves it so that Even the dullest of you can understand it , tough if you do not like it, tough if You are too selfish to think of the effect YOU will have driving home after 1 or 3 glasses of wine,, that WAS someones family member you just maimed for life, or killed..

No fannying about , you drink/drive - you loose your licence for 5 years, do it again, thats it for life,, get a cob on and drive anyway,, have 10years inside. clear , easy for even the morons to understand, and given how the police Love picking on motorists for anything, you will get found/caught.

its about time Certain folk stopped being so selfish ,removed there heads from there arris . namby pamby "£10 fine" ,,"month ban" ,, pointless hit em , hit em HARD and publish it in all the papers With a photo.. "mr/mrs/ms XYZ caught drunk driving, banned for 5 years".
wonder how many of the "oh its unworkable,, " and "what about,,,, " and "ah but....." posters have been well over the limit driving ???
never mind those certain few who decide to call folk who do not like it "holy thantho" ,,, bet you they have a few times hence there stance.....

[volvorocks]

I look at this from a different point of view.

I retire next month (Yippee), but for the past several years I have been involved heavily with units that look after people who have brain diseases and brain injuries. Some of our patients are in our care as the result of Drink Driving, whether they have been the driver, or passenger, or been hit by a drink driver as a pedestrian.

You need to see people like this to get the message across.

So, whilst accepting that there are always going to be selfish people who couldn't care less about any motoring laws and put other drivers lives at risk, I would support a Zero Limit. Nothing Less.

I would also put a ban on such drivers holding a licence again for at least 5 years, crush their cars, and fine them a flat rate of at least £5000 even if it meant taking that from benefits at source. That's because they chose to blatantly put other drivers lives at risk.

Drink Drivers have no place on the roads. They KILL and INJURE people, and take it from me, until you have seen the first hand effects that this wicked CRIME has on the families and victims of drink drivers, you have no idea of the end results.

Don't ever be complacent about this issue. Report them, and get them off the roads. I have, I will again, and I have taken keys off people too. NOBODY should be in charge of a motor vehicle when they have had a drink. Period. you can make all the excuses you like, but none of them are valid when it comes to KILLING or seriously injuring another human.

An accident is an accident. A drink drive accident never need have taken place.

Just pray to God that you never get that knock on the door to tell you that YOUR Wife, Son, Baby, Girlfriend, Sister, Brother or other family member has been mowed down by one of these people.

Throw the book at them.

Oilydad

Hi and thanks for your very very good post.

I agree fully with you.

Regards the Zero limit, and whilst other countries have this, I am not sure this would actually work due to the fact our bodies actually produce alcohol via a process called endogenous ethanol production , whereby we produce alcohol by way of fermenting our food in the gut , especially if you have a high carb diet.

I concur with others in this thread in so far as whatever the limit - zero - 10 - 20 - 30, hardcore offenders will simply ignore it. The Justice system really needs to get a grip and come down extremely hard on these people.

Regards

[tt82]

I would probably support a reduction in the limit but not zero tolerance.

First how does driving the morning after affect your driving compared to being sober. I'm sure there are times after a night out I have drove with alcohol still in my system, possibly enough to be banned if i had been breathlysed but my driving was fine. Whilst the alcohol was still in my system I was no longer suffering any affects from it. I think Scientific studies would be needed to prove that having a small amount of alcohol in your system the morning after can adversely affect your driving, before 0 tolerance could be considered.
Smoking, eating, drinking (non-alcohol), driving while tired, without perscription glasses when you need them or even having young children in the car can affect a persons driving. What about if you have a cold, do we ban anybody who has the audacity to sneeze in the car because they've driven while not 100% fine? Do we start banning all these people and handing out prison sentances for them?

I think we need tolerances for what is acceptable.


On a side note, the British pub industry is already on its knees due to high taxes, low cost supermarket beer and especialy the reccesion. How would a zero tolerance approach to drink driving affect the industry.

[arcturus]

Removing licence is a waste of time as they just drive without one and no insurance. Crush car and gaol sentence. Can't be to critical though, I regularly drive to my local and have two beers, 50mls total, (2/3rd pint)have a chat and drive back home through village.

[volvorocks]

On a side note, the British pub industry is already on its knees due to high taxes, low cost supermarket beer and especialy the reccesion. How would a zero tolerance approach to drink driving affect the industry.

Hi tt82

With the greatest of respect I fail to see how what you state could be considered valid....????????????

Taken in context on its own as a sentence it could simply be considered a question without implication endorsement or support???..is it..??

Perhaps the people wishing to drink at the pub should get a Taxi thus increasing business for cabbies in the tough economic times....?????????

Regards

[tt82]

You misunderstand.

If there was a zero tolerance approach to drink driving, how many people when considering they have to drive to work in the morning would stop doing things such as going for a pint in the pub, an evening meal or even just the quick drink at home in the evening? I'm not talking about somebody getting into the car at night after 10 pints but specificly how the morning after would affect moderate and reasonable drinkers.

I do feel that the industry - and perhaps I should have said the drinks industry and not pubs - would suffer greatly and many people would be out of jobs. Whilst I don't want to appear to be putting a "price" on a "life", my earlier point is that there are plenty of situations where a persons driving is impaired, and I would like to see conclusive scientific proof that a tiny amount of alcohol in your blood the morning after effects your driving enough to warrant the punishments people have suggested, and any more than the aforementioned things in my previous post.

[volvorocks]

You misunderstand.

If there was a zero tolerance approach to drink driving, how many people when considering they have to drive to work in the morning would stop doing things such as going for a pint in the pub, an evening meal or even just the quick drink at home in the evening? I'm not talking about somebody getting into the car at night after 10 pints but specificly how the morning after would affect moderate and reasonable drinkers.

I do feel that the industry - and perhaps I should have said the drinks industry and not pubs - would suffer greatly and many people would be out of jobs. Whilst I don't want to appear to be putting a "price" on a "life", my earlier point is that there are plenty of situations where a persons driving is impaired, and I would like to see conclusive scientific proof that a tiny amount of alcohol in your blood the morning after effects your driving enough to warrant the punishments people have suggested, and any more than the aforementioned things in my previous post.

Hi tt82

No I understand , hence me asking was it simply a question or were you endorsing drink driving on the basis of lowered sales in the Pub trade and job losses..!!!!!!!!!!

I dont think a pint or an evening meal in the pub or a quick drink at home would alter in the slightest with regard to morning after driving as one would have to drink in excess of 10 units to have any alcohol in them at 8am the next day (assuming a start time of 6pm and a finish time of 11pm based on an average filtration by the liver for an average person bearing in mind all people are different). I would still have a pint at home at 8pm then drive at 8am next morning as it would be out of the system

If the limit was zero I would still have a pint of shandy (1 unit) with my meal at 6pm so long as I was driving home after 11pm as it would have gone from the system.

Added to which I dont believe the limit should be zero as the body produces its own alcohol and we all can at times have a trace even teetotalers!

[Moosejaw]

this is what people Refuse to get into their heads, they drone on about "mouthwash" ,,"unfair" ,, well screw you, its Bloody "unfair" to kill or maim people due to you being a selfish t....t and driving when Way over the limit.
if the limit is 0 , then its simple , NO drink at all if you want to drive. dont like it, dont drink + drive, the whole "all well ,, " / "ah but,,,," is selfish crap.....

...No fannying about , you drink/drive - you loose your licence for 5 years, do it again, thats it for life,, get a cob on and drive anyway,, have 10years inside.


So for those of you advocating an absolute zero limit with draconian punishments, can I ask a couple of question?
(Andy, I'm not having a specific go at you, your post just happened to be the one I chose)

How long does alcohol take to completely and utterly disappear from someone's body? I know most other drugs (legal & otherwise) can hang around in the body for days if not weeks.
How can it possibly be reasonable to throw someone in jail for 5 years (or whatever the 'hang 'em high' brigade are baying for) for being found with alcohol in their system on a Thursday morning after having a few beers on the previous Saturday night?
To be honest, given the choice of that or having a few p!ss heads on the roads, I'd choose the latter...

Secondly, with all due respect for people who for all I know may well be absolutely 100% perfect drivers who have never committed any kind of traffic misdemeanour in their lives, if we accept that all it takes is one moment of inattention to cause a crash, regardless of the cause of that inattention, what's your opinion on people who use mobile phones while driving ( I'm taking about AT ALL, not just the ones who don't use hands-free devices, since the very act of talking on a phone has been proven to be as distracting as someone who's been drinking)?

Or changing the CD or radio station?
Or turning round to shout at the kids in the back seat?
Or fiddling with some minor control in an unfamiliar or new car?
Or looking at a pretty girl on the pavement?
Or smoking?
Or eating?
Etc, etc.....

All these things and more (we haven't even got to speeding, or driving when tired, or when you've just had some major bust-up with the wife or just had bad news, or bursting for a pee) can cause the same outcome as someone who's had a pint of beer.
(Note, I'm making a distinction here between someone who's had A DRINK and someone who's had several)

Could anyone honestly say they've never done any of those things, but still maintain their stance on zero limits and massive punishments for someone who's had one glass of wine?

[volvorocks]

....with all due respect for people who for all I know may well be absolutely 100% perfect drivers who have never committed any kind of traffic misdemeanour in their lives, if we accept that all it takes is one moment of inattention to cause a crash, regardless of the cause of that inattention, what's your opinion on people who use mobile phones while driving ( I'm taking about AT ALL, not just the ones who don't use hands-free devices, since the very act of talking on a phone has been proven to be as distracting as someone who's been drinking)?

Or changing the CD or radio station?
Or turning round to shout at the kids in the back seat?
Or fiddling with some minor control in an unfamiliar or new car?
Or looking at a pretty girl on the pavement?
Or smoking?
Or eating?
Etc, etc.....

All these things and more (we haven't even got to speeding, or driving when tired, or when you've just had some major bust-up with the wife or just had bad news, or bursting for a pee) can cause the same outcome as someone who's had a pint of beer.

Hi Moosejaw

Yes I tend to agree with you there are other things that could cause issues whilst driving...but the OP is about drink driving

Regards

[Andy Northface]

Ok then. Let's keep the alcohol limit as is. Right,what do we do about the people who are 2 and 3 times over the limit. The people who don't care if they mow someone down.The same ones who drive when banned and don't give a toss. I don't care about changing c.d.'S or sneezing or whatever.what are we going to do with these people that everyone who drives LEGALLY is paying for through their scandalous insurance premiums?
I want these people dealt with severely.

[volvorocks]

Ok then. Let's keep the alcohol limit as is. Right,what do we do about the people who are 2 and 3 times over the limit. The people who don't care if they mow someone down.The same ones who drive when banned and don't give a toss. I don't care about changing c.d.'S or sneezing or whatever.what are we going to do with these people that everyone who drives LEGALLY is paying for through their scandalous insurance premiums?
I want these people dealt with severely.

The thing is Andy the sentences are there for drink drivers its just that they are not handed down,which is so annoying.Small fine.2 year ban. Death by dangerous - maybe out in 3?

Myself personally I do agree with prison for drink drivers.I also agree with attempted re-habilitation in prison.I believe some people can and will see the error of their ways and be remorseful. Some will not.I myself would be quite happy to be charged a "Prison Tax" whereby everyone gets taxed like Council Tax of say £1000 a year.Im not bothered if I couldnt afford to pay it, I still would.Id make cuts elsewhere. Build more prisons,invest in re-hab. Lock the criminals up for a good long time. Less criminals on the streets the safer they will be. Less cost to the police,the NHS,for us through lower insurance,a better quality of life for the law (ish) abiding(lol) etc etc etc.(I wil stop here as Im deviating onto criminals other than drink drivers...!!)

regards

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,
i watched cops with cameras last night and they got this guy drink drivung for the third time in as many months..his mate was holding his pint for him as he drove...a 7 year stretch would sort that and a lifetime ban .....
And therein lies the problem....
Those people who are prepared to D&D are also those people who are most likely to drive without insurance, MOT, tax, drive whilst banned and so on. Which makes a ban pretty much pointless as they will be back behind the wheel not so very long afterwards.
They will claim to be their brother, cousin, sister or some other unfortunate. They might even be clever and do a test in another name and have a full clean driving licence as AKA... Maybe even more than the one...

But how do you stop them? By catching them, again and again (and yes, maybe locking them up). But you are only likely to catch them if there are people looking for them... And there aren't. Or at least there aren't enough people out there trying to catch them (along with the others who need to be taken off the road).

I can remember when there were regular road check to check the driver, the vehicle etc. Haven't seen one of those for decades - yes - decades!

As much as "zero tolerance" would be most acceptable, it is (here certainly) an unlikely and perhaps undesirable target. There can be valid reason for there being "some" alcohol in the system. Reduce the current level by 10 or 15? You may catch a few more people who would have thought they would have passed. Certainly it is a better choice to not drink if you know you are going to drive. But a pint, over a 3/4 hour evening (with a meal?) wouldn't put you over the limit. Would it?

Des. . . ;)

[Andy Northface]

That's the whole point Des,Whatever the limit,there is always an underclass who will disregard it and these are the ones who something must be done about.As has been pointed out on the police programs,its the same faces being stopped day in and day out.

[gibble king]

saw another one last night...80 mph in a town drunk out of his head...repeat offender crashed the car ..it spun out and rolled throwing his now ex into the road (no seat belts were worn) and nearly killing her.the other passenger was in the car and was also seriously hurt..he was found on the parcel shelf asleep as he was so drunk...did he say sorry ...no...he got nasty and violent to the nurses who wanted to help...all i know is he got arrested and charged...
these are the ones i dont mind seeing been put in front of a firing squad...because one day that scumbag is going to kill some one...its just a matter of time....
as for the other side of the coin...you could have non alcoholic beer and keep the pubs open...other factors no one has considered up for a mention include a drink whilst tired ...this is also a major factor in driving ability impairment...

[Andy Northface]

saw another one last night...80 mph in a town drunk out of his head...repeat offender crashed the car ..it spun out and rolled throwing his now ex into the road (no seat belts were worn) and nearly killing her.the other passenger was in the car and was also seriously hurt..he was found on the parcel shelf asleep as he was so drunk...did he say sorry ...no...he got nasty and violent to the nurses who wanted to help...all i know is he got arrested and charged...
these are the ones i dont mind seeing been put in front of a firing squad...because one day that scumbag is going to kill some one...its just a matter of time....
as for the other side of the coin...you could have non alcoholic beer and keep the pubs open...other factors no one has considered up for a mention include a drink whilst tired ...this is also a major factor in driving ability impairment...

I do have a pint with a pub meal every now and then,Spread over the course of an hour,but if it was outlawed,I would drink pop quite happily. Also you are right,After driving back from Blackpool last night ( 300 miles,there and back same day ) I know from experience that tiredness is lethal! I always pull over at least twice on a trip there and the same on the way back for wee and a walk around the services car park.

[Anadinolin]

i personally feel the DD limit should be reduced by 10 - atleast then you are allowing for natural alcohol levels in the bloodstream...NHS staff often work with alcohols - its a cleaner for most of the instruments, theres about 83% methanol, 3% ethanol and the other few percent is the actual smellies in the handwash they use and alcohols like those are easy to absorb into the bloodstream via skin contact.

i work with alcohols all day - methanol, neat alcohol, isopropyl and a few other variants, although well ventalated i still see an increase in my blood alcohol levels - not enough to put me over the limit, but i imagine the possobility would be there if i worked in there without taking breaks and without ventallation...its very apparant when i visit breweries to service their equipment - one of them has their lab above the fermentation Vatt!!

people also like to just take the edge off a stressfull day nursing a pint after work for a couple of hours :thumbs_up:

[Oilydad]

Just going back to TT82's post where you say:

I'm sure there are times after a night out I have drove with alcohol still in my system, possibly enough to be banned if i had been breathlysed but my driving was fine.

That sentence sort of summed it up to me.

Who says your driving is fine?
How do you know your reaction times aren't even slightly impaired?

Not picking on that (or you) in any way, so no offence or dig intended.... But the ONLY safe way is a ZERO limit. There is then absolutely NO argument about it if you are stopped and breathalised, (as indeed you will be in most force areas if you have an accident on your way to work, whether your fault or not) for example. You can be caught like that.

If we go for a drink, we take a taxi OR one of our party doesn't drink at all. It's not difficult. Pubs, Profits and jobs don't come into it as far as I'm concerned. Frankly I couldn't care less if every pub, club and other watering hole in the UK shut down today, because the problems with drinking and other related issues in the Uk are a constant drain on OUR taxes and resources. For some reason best known to themselves, the British can't drink without getting hammered and making complete ass holes out of themselves.

Why for example do we persist in taking DRUNKS to A&E? They don't want them! Put the drunken TW**S in a cage in the town centre until they sober up. Get the local fire brigade to hose them down with icy water if they are passing. Treat them for what they are. D R U N K S!

Personally I'd like to see nationwide police spot checks on drivers leaving pubs. Drivers who are convinced that they are still "OK to drive mate". So called 'Drivers' who have all the smart answers and won't be convinced that THEY are the problem.

But they are still convinced that they have the "right" to drive and possibly kill a complete stranger.......from someone else's family!

[owyn]

Just going back to TT82's post where you say:



That sentence sort of summed it up to me.

Who says your driving is fine?
How do you know your reaction times aren't even slightly impaired?

Not picking on that (or you) in any way, so no offence or dig intended.... But the ONLY safe way is a ZERO limit. There is then absolutely NO argument about it if you are stopped and breathalised, (as indeed you will be in most force areas if you have an accident on your way to work, whether your fault or not) for example. You can be caught like that.

If we go for a drink, we take a taxi OR one of our party doesn't drink at all. It's not difficult. Pubs, Profits and jobs don't come into it as far as I'm concerned. Frankly I couldn't care less if every pub, club and other watering hole in the UK shut down today, because the problems with drinking and other related issues in the Uk are a constant drain on OUR taxes and resources. For some reason best known to themselves, the British can't drink without getting hammered and making complete ass holes out of themselves.

Why for example do we persist in taking DRUNKS to A&E? They don't want them! Put the drunken TW**S in a cage in the town centre until they sober up. Get the local fire brigade to hose them down with icy water if they are passing. Treat them for what they are. D R U N K S!

Personally I'd like to see nationwide police spot checks on drivers leaving pubs. Drivers who are convinced that they are still "OK to drive mate". So called 'Drivers' who have all the smart answers and won't be convinced that THEY are the problem.

But they are still convinced that they have the "right" to drive and possibly kill a complete stranger.......from someone else's family!

I say thats too good for people that have half a shandy with a meal, in fact we should have a gun on the door of a pub that shoots people on the way in, removes all doubt then!

[tt82]

Just going back to TT82's post where you say:



That sentence sort of summed it up to me.

Who says your driving is fine?
How do you know your reaction times aren't even slightly impaired?

Not picking on that (or you) in any way, so no offence or dig intended.... But the ONLY safe way is a ZERO limit. There is then absolutely NO argument about it if you are stopped and breathalised, (as indeed you will be in most force areas if you have an accident on your way to work, whether your fault or not) for example. You can be caught like that.

If we go for a drink, we take a taxi OR one of our party doesn't drink at all. It's not difficult. Pubs, Profits and jobs don't come into it as far as I'm concerned. Frankly I couldn't care less if every pub, club and other watering hole in the UK shut down today, because the problems with drinking and other related issues in the Uk are a constant drain on OUR taxes and resources. For some reason best known to themselves, the British can't drink without getting hammered and making complete ass holes out of themselves.

Why for example do we persist in taking DRUNKS to A&E? They don't want them! Put the drunken TW**S in a cage in the town centre until they sober up. Get the local fire brigade to hose them down with icy water if they are passing. Treat them for what they are. D R U N K S!

Personally I'd like to see nationwide police spot checks on drivers leaving pubs. Drivers who are convinced that they are still "OK to drive mate". So called 'Drivers' who have all the smart answers and won't be convinced that THEY are the problem.

But they are still convinced that they have the "right" to drive and possibly kill a complete stranger.......from someone else's family!

No offence taken but let me just requote what i said -

First how does driving the morning after affect your driving compared to being sober. I'm sure there are times after a night out I have drove with alcohol still in my system, possibly enough to be banned if i had been breathlysed but my driving was fine. Whilst the alcohol was still in my system I was no longer suffering any affects from it. I think Scientific studies would be needed to prove that having a small amount of alcohol in your system the morning after can adversely affect your driving, before 0 tolerance could be considered.

- Im specificly talking about the morning after and not the night after drinking. After a few pints at night you are quite sober in the morning and no longer feel the full affects of the alcohol in your system, yet it is still there. Thats why I think I Scientific studies would be needed to prove that having a small amount of alcohol in your system the morning after can adversely affect your driving.

A quote from an alcosense advert, a company who offer personal breath test kits. 17,800 people lose their licences each year for unitentional morning after drink driving, after drinking as little as 3 or 4 pints of beer the night before.

So according to this company, even after a nights sleep, just drinking 3 or 4 pints the night before can put me over the limit. However Im sure I would pass any sobriety test at this stage. Again how does the alcoholic affects on your coordination etc wear off compared to the alcohol leaving your bloodstream?

[Laney760]

I used to work for Met Police as a civvie in Traffic process. On a course I attended at the Yard we were shown a graph which showed that up to a certain level/small percentage of alcohol in the blood increased reaction times but once past that point reaction times are severely reduced

Stronger deterrents are needed, much longer bans, say a five year ban for first offence drink driving and an eight year prison sentence (to guarantee five served)for driving whilst banned. For those that kill through drink driving a lifetime ban and the same prison sentence as for manslaughter

I was once accused by a hamster of being a liar on this forum when I spoke about my boss (in his late 70s at the time of the offence) who did NOT lose his licence when he was found to be over the limit on the blood test (when I worked in the Met not everybody who was over the limit got a disqual, a few were spared their licences due to losing their jobs etc..) This fact has recently been made public in the press, that not all drink drivers lose their licence and the Freedom of Information Act gives statistics

I've made local Police aware of two prolific drink drivers in my area over the years but nothing was done about them :-(

[Bill Edmondson]

I drove from Brighton to Huddersfield and back this weekend for a big family party and reunion.
Prior to getting there I bought a a six pack of alcohol free beer. This did me fine, whilst having to sit amongst drinking revelers.
You can still feel like your having a beer etc these days very easily.

[arcturus]

Will a half with your lunch really make you a dangerous driver.Will I still be over the limit next morning? I agree with a previous corespondent, more tests need to be done on the level of impairment before any changes are made. Usually it's not the ocaisional pint drinker that causes accidents but the inveterate six pinter with a ban that does, so zero tolerence won't make any difference.
Also, if i took a drug test now it would show asperine in my system,does that make me a drug user under the terms envisaged?
I think a degree of comonsense is required.