Anyone thinking of useing bio-diesel?

[STE-MAL]

The other day I carried out a routine six week inspection on an M.A.N truck. It was a 2004 TGA 460A D28 common rail.
Now these vehicles are inspected every six weeks and the fuel pre-filter is checked and cleaned every twelve weeks. The pre-filter is their to catch any large debris before it reaches the main fuel filter, as the fuel filter is only changed every 100'000 km's.
Anyway, this vehicle had been running on bio-diesel for six weeks. The picture below shows a pre-filter (on the left) at a nine week inspection running on regular diesel. The one on the right shows the same filter after suffering six weeks of bio-diesel.
And the fuel filter housings were so swollen they could not be refitted. By the way these should last the life of the truck.

834

[gnhuk]

Jeez.................... Had they filtered the chip fat before putting it in the tank?

[STE-MAL]

Jeez.................... Had they filtered the chip fat before putting it in the tank?

No mate! That was straight from the fryer. LOL.
And it stinks like a chip pan fire!!

[MissDMeanor]

What is the difference between bio-diesel & the old-fashioned one?

Presumably it is more environmentally friendly??

[STE-MAL]

What is the difference between bio-diesel & the old-fashioned one?

Presumably it is more environmentally friendly??

Bio is cheaper. It's cooking oil and in my opinion it's crap. It is the same as diesel but it is not as refined.

[MissDMeanor]

Bio is cheaper. It's cooking oil and in my opinion it's crap. It is the same as diesel but it is not as refined.

Judging by the state of that filter and the fact that it had to be replaced rather than just cleaned I would be very dubious about using it in any vehicle. What other long-term damage is it doing to the engine, I wonder.....:cyclops:

[STE-MAL]

Judging by the state of that filter and the fact that it had to be replaced rather than just cleaned I would be very dubious about using it in any vehicle. What other long-term damage is it doing to the engine, I wonder.....:cyclops:


Exactly Julie!!!!!:shades_smile:

[neil stevenson]

Using old chip pan oil, strained or not and mixed with ordinary diesel is not bio diesel.
Properly manufactured bio diesel is clean, burns well and gives off less harmful emissions.
Check out Terry de Whinne's site on bio diesel at www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk or www.biodiesel.biz .
I have run my 300Tdi Discovery and a 200Tdi Range Rover on it and they both ran quieter and smoother on it.
Try real bio diesel and you will notice the difference.

Cheers.

[Peter Milnes]

Try reading "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" by Joshua Tickell. You may not realise it but the first diesel (Dr Rudolf Diesel)ran on peanut oil, which is what it was designed for. I use 100% Biodiesel (B100) made to standard EN14214. All the main manufacturers add Biodiesel to their diesel fuels, necessary to replace the lubricant for the fuel pump which is starved of lubricant by the Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuels made today. Their fuel is 5% biodiesel, known as B5and is available throughout the UK. So far few supermarket outlets have taken the plunge. I get my fuel at present from the only B100 pump outlet in Wales. I will shortly be producing my own to the same standard when the cost will be down from 95p/Litre at present to 32p/Litre.

All the best, Peter. :car-smiley-031:

[STE-MAL]

I'll see if I can find out exactly what this vehicle was running on. We have another customer running on so called bio-diesel. They suffer the same as this vehicle did. And they suffer frequent fuel related breakdowns.
It would appear this stuff isn't much good. What does the bio-diesel you guys are using look like? This stuff was very oily and very dark in colour. One thing I did notice is the effect it had on the latex gloves we use when changing the filter. It destroyed the gloves as you would expect but not as quickly as regular diesel. Yet it caused the fuel filter housing cap to swell.

[ivor940]

Re Bio-diesel, It is a type of solvent. It will loosen any debris in the fuel system. It will deteriorate items containing Natural rubber (even if the item contains a small percentage of natural rubber ). Within the Bio-Diesel community, it is recognised that the fuel filter change frequency must be increased until the filters are clear. It is similar to using flushing oil in an engine. You should not just use Bio-diesel without taking these issues into consideration. This information from a work collegue who had done a lot of research into Bio-diesel. He runs a Toyota Hilux.

ivor940

[Alec Dawe]

Bio is cheaper. It's cooking oil and in my opinion it's crap. It is the same as diesel but it is not as refined.

No good for me then, as I'm terribly refined!!

I tried a tank of Bio-diesel in my Saab when I had it, cough, splutter and stink, and only about 34MPG.. 42MPG on 'real' diesel.

[STE-MAL]

No good for me then, as I'm terribly refined!!

I tried a tank of Bio-diesel in my Saab when I had it, cough, splutter and stink, and only about 34MPG.. 42MPG on 'real' diesel.

Stink, you can say that again. I'm not saying all vehicles would stink but one I was working on about a month ago really did smell like a chip pan!

[ivor940]

BTW, Bio-diesel is not just cooking oil put in the fuel tank. It is actually the combining of clean ( ie filtered) vegetable oil and Lye oil which has been added in a certain ratio. The addition of Lye oil to the Veg oil is to be done under controlled conditions, as it can be dangerous if done incorrectly. Standard ( filtered) vegetable oil can be added to a diesel fuel tank, but you really need to heat / lag the tank and oil lines. In warm weather conditions, a 50/50 mix will work. The ASDO oil was quite cheap. In the UK, you can pay Duty to the Revenue to make use of the veg oil legal. I think it is 26p per litre. The book mentioned by Peter Milne will have a lot more information.

ivor940

[4 forty]

tuesday, 8-00pm, on bbc two, there is program "its not easy being green" two weeks ago it showed how bio diesel was made, as i remember, the old chip shop oil was susspended from a height and allowed to drain through a filter, then a chemical was added to it, sorry i cannot remember its name. the finished product was very clear. perhaps a search on the bbc website might bring up the recipe.
this site http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.htm is very informative on making bio diesel

paul

[GMcL]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/biodiesel.htm

Also covers the Biodiesel subject.

As was previously mentioned here the manufacturers recommend changing the fuel filter after switching. Also, Volvo trucks issued a notice stating anyone using this should half the service interval of their vehicle.

I asked the main dealer when I picked up my car (D5 Sport) in December if I could use Biodiesel. I got a firm NO !

[LittleGreyCat]

Just started using BioDiesel as a local firm, enfuels of Thatcham.

http://wwww.enfuels.co.uk

They hand out a 'Using Biodiesel for the first time?' fact sheet which tells you to change the filter after two tanks full and for pre-1995 vehicles they may require an upgrade from natural fuel lines to synthetic ones.

One attraction is that the fuel is currently 89p per litre which is around 10p/litre cheaper than normal petrol station diesel.

This is a saving of about £5 per week (as I tend to use one tankful a week).

I will book it in for a filter change and a check on the fuel lines as it is a 1990 740.

So far it seems to run more smoothly, but I can't detect any major change in power (although with a ravening 80 bhp under the bonnet I think 'power' is possibly not the correct term).

I will report back any major problems.

Barring problems, I intend to keep on using Biodiesel because the smoke smells nicer and it helps Mexicans stay slim.

[LankyTim]

Bio diesel strips all the varnish out of the system that normal diesel leaves behind. After a whiile it will stop clogging the filter up as the last of the crud is removed. The biodiesel is showing up how dirty normal diesel really is!

[RoyMacDonald]

Bio diesel also goes off as it's an organic product, the quality can be very variable in the UK from the small producers as well. The particulate emmissions are also highly carcenogenic acording to the latest German research.

According to Total, about 50% of of diesel in Europe contains 5% biodiesel, and the XC90 D5 euro III engine is OK to run on 5% according to the Volvo handbook.

[GMcL]

The particulate emmissions are also highly carcenogenic acording to the latest German research.

According to Total, about 50% of of diesel in Europe contains 5% biodiesel, and the XC90 D5 euro III engine is OK to run on 5% according to the Volvo handbook.

Where did you hear or read this latest German research ? Can you provide a source please.

I have an S60 with the same EuroIII D5 engine and was told not to use Biodiesel in the car. I have read at this site (http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/green-cars.htm)that some manufacturers are cautiously recommending between 5 and 30% mixes but at this stage they are still unsure of the long-term wear and tear.
Interestingly at this site no diesel Volvo is listed.

[RoyMacDonald]

Where did you hear or read this latest German research ? Can you provide a source please.

I have an S60 with the same EuroIII D5 engine and was told not to use Biodiesel in the car. I have read at this site (http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/green-cars.htm)that some manufacturers are cautiously recommending between 5 and 30% mixes but at this stage they are still unsure of the long-term wear and tear.
Interestingly at this site no diesel Volvo is listed.

It was a link on the honest john website to a New Scientist blog website article. The trouble is there are so many articles I'm having trouble finding it again. I've been looking for about an hour and a half already!! You may want to have a look yourself. It's an interesting read and there is loads of stuff on biofuel. I think the article I saw was on a health blog page. I remember it was down towards the bottom. The articles are listed by a monthly archive.

I'll keep looking anyway.

[GMcL]

OK Thanks.
It's something I'm interested in reading about. If you find the link please post.

I know the HonestJohn website is moderated quite heavily and if something is found to be misleading, or incorrect, the link or thread is removed. I've just had a quick scan through the website and there is no reference to "German Scien" to cover science or scientists or "German research".
I did read elsewhere that 100% biodiesel couldn't be carcinogenic as there is no fossil fuel present and extra oxygen was added to make the burn process more complete thereby diluting the emissions further.

[craig8661]

to add to i put my 940 d24t engine onto bio desial first few fills ok new filter etc then started with a run back problem cut story short the bio desial did the shaft seal on my pump my car is in on tues to have a secondhand pump fitted now where i brought the bio from was a small garage now on running cars i have run them on veg oil and desial and never had this prob now it could be due to old seals my car has done 215,000 miles but my 106 had done 240,000 miles and didnt suffer the same

[RoyMacDonald]

OK Thanks.
It's something I'm interested in reading about. If you find the link please post.

I know the HonestJohn website is moderated quite heavily and if something is found to be misleading, or incorrect, the link or thread is removed. I've just had a quick scan through the website and there is no reference to "German Scien" to cover science or scientists or "German research".
I did read elsewhere that 100% biodiesel couldn't be carcinogenic as there is no fossil fuel present and extra oxygen was added to make the burn process more complete thereby diluting the emissions further.

Try looking on the New Scientist web site, even if you can't find it there is loads of stuff on biodiesel. I have looked for another couple of hours without success. Their site is huge.

I disagree about "couldn't be carcenogenic" bit. It seems to be that all burnt organic material is carcenogenic. i.e cigarette smoke, bonfire smoke, burnt toast. etc. etc. It would be more of a suprise if it wasn't. It wouldn't stop me using it personally, but I'd avoid breathing the fumes directly. However there are other issues that do stop me using it.

[RoyMacDonald]

I've remembered the link on the Honest John website was to something about biodiesel on the New Scientist web site and the link was on a page I was looking at on that web site. I'm afraid it was three or four weeks ago so it's hard to remember the exact page.

I'd treat the report with caution though until it is verified by more than one lab. Bear in mind what happened with the original reseach on diesel emissions from fossil fuel, that said it was carcenogeic. It turned out the research was done using rats!!! The only mammal that can't cough! All subsequent research using other types of mammels hasn't show any link to cancer in mammals, but the British Government based all it's subsequent tax legislation on the original discredited research.

[GMcL]

I think what is putting me off Biodiesel is the fact none of the big manufacturers are really pushing it.
A number are coming out with Bioethanol but none are saying buy our car and you can put any grade of Biodiesel in. Even the French are absent and let's face it, if Biodisel was any good, the French would be using it.

[LankyTim]

Part of the problem is we live in an oil based economy and if everyone started running their cars on sunflower oil it would bring down the government.. or something.

[LittleGreyCat]

Now on my second tank of bio diesel.

The car seems to run smoothly, but the mpg is in the lower range of my previous records. I got 31 mpg and I have had 35-40 mpg when driving carefully - however I haven't been very gentle with the 'go' pedal these last couple of weeks.

One thing I have noticed is that my starting problems from cold seem to have returned. It seems to be starting on 5 cylinders again then going to all 6 cylinders after a short while. At least the smoke is lighter in colour and less offensive.

The engine generally feels smoother.

Booked in for a service and fuel line check in a couple of weeks.

I will report back.

[craig8661]

to add does your engine make a louder cracking noise when fired up in the morning thats how mine went was more awkward to start had new pump fitted no probs when i get chance will take photos of my mushed seal on the pump that was took of

[LittleGreyCat]

to add does your engine make a louder cracking noise when fired up in the morning thats how mine went was more awkward to start had new pump fitted no probs when i get chance will take photos of my mushed seal on the pump that was took of

Starting from cold it sounds like a load of marbles in a tin bucket, and it mis-fires a lot until slightly warmed up.

It is now taking longer to start from hot as well.

First tank full had some normal diesel left - assume 5-10% - and didn't mis-behave as much.

I am now contemplating adding some normal diesel to this tank to see if this improves starting.

I hope that my pump is not on the way out - a replacement sounds expensive.

How was the fault diagnosed?

[craig8661]

mine was diagnosed by desial running back down to the filter and it was wet around the belt and wet on the gaurd my pump cost me £100 from breakers then had it tested on bench and new seal fitted to it and that cost £30 then i had to pay £120 to have the pump swapped over you will be best to go back onto derv as im getting 160 miles to £20 of derv at 93.9p a liter or if you want to run on cheaper tesco do veg oil 3 liter for £1.75 or around 59p a liter there is no standerd for bio fuel so if i made it for local garage all goverment is botherd about is tax so i could make it up of veg oul and acid
but you see fuel from garage pump petrol or derv has to be to standerd so you kno you not putting crap in your engine.
if you search for posts on my profile you will see the probs ive had with my car allso when your car is cold on the bio and its cracking and popping you dont kno what its doing to your piston rings theese engines are hard to find and if you find one have to pay a good lump sum for one it was a costley mistake i learned with my old girl where abouts are you in uk as im over next month traveling down scotland to nottingham then to southport then to manchester then back to stranrere than back to n. ireland

[D5 Monkey]

What is the difference between bio-diesel & the old-fashioned one?

Presumably it is more environmentally friendly??

Depends what you call environmentally friendly.

It saves on the burning of fossil fuels but then, to cope with increasing demand we will end up with less and less rainforests as the develloping world rush to supply our needs. Lucrative!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil#Palm_Oil_as_Biodiesel

Tim

[RoyMacDonald]

What is the difference between bio-diesel & the old-fashioned one?

Presumably it is more environmentally friendly??

Diesel is made from mineral oil and biodiesel is made from vegetable oil.

There is a big query on whether it is enviromentaly friendly. Run a search on the New Scientist Enviroment Blog web site to see what I mean. Among things said are...Uses more energy than it gives...Takes valuble food production land from poor third world populations.....Highly carcenogenic particualte emissions.

[GMcL]

Diesel is made from mineral oil and biodiesel is made from vegetable oil.

There is a big query on whether it is enviromentaly friendly. Run a search on the New Scientist Enviroment Blog web site to see what I mean. Among things said are...Uses more energy than it gives...Takes valuble food production land from poor third world populations.....Highly carcenogenic particualte emissions.

That and the fact no major manufacturer has thrown their weight behind Biodiesel in the way they have with Bioethanol. Makes me think they are having problems with CR diesels making them run reliably on Biodiesel.
If you look at all the main diesel car companies, Renault, PSA, Mercedes and to some extent VAG and Volvo. They have all experienced some kind of injector, fuel pump, EGR failure which have required expensive repairs.
Now throw the relatively new and unknown Biodiesel to the mix and I can see in-house warranty people tearing their hair out.

[Clansman]

Hi folks.
Has anyone got any experience of running a v70 on pure veg.oil?
Been reading a lot about it recently and it seems that apart from a two-tank professional conversion, you can just add a small fuel heater in the line and away you go with a mix of up to 50%.
Sounds too good a saving too be true.
Any thoughts?

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,
Hi folks.
Has anyone got any experience of running a v70 on pure veg.oil?
Been reading a lot about it recently and it seems that apart from a two-tank professional conversion, you can just add a small fuel heater in the line and away you go with a mix of up to 50%.
Sounds too good a saving too be true.
Any thoughts?
When I saw something about Bio-Diesel on TV a few years ago a chap had converted his car to run on veggie oil (second hand, cleaned and filtered) and he had added a pre-heater to the fuel pipe to thin the oil en-route to the engine.
Apart from that addition, he had made no other changes...

Des. . . ;)

[RoyMacDonald]

Hi folks.
Has anyone got any experience of running a v70 on pure veg.oil?
Been reading a lot about it recently and it seems that apart from a two-tank professional conversion, you can just add a small fuel heater in the line and away you go with a mix of up to 50%.
Sounds too good a saving too be true.
Any thoughts?

In view of the removal of tax from vegetable oil used for car fuel I've been looking at conversions again and the only company with serious high milage experience (4,000,000km on one engine) is Esbett and they heat the vegetable oil tank as well and modify your injectors and fit uprated glowplugs and boost the fuel pump pressure.

I think they do a single tank system for the Audi unit in the earlier V70's which means you don't need a separate tank for vegetable oil or diesel.

Let me know how you get on if you go ahead. Good luck.
Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

I found this site which gives statistics for cars running on veg oil.

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/database/index.php

Also this site sell an induction heater which can raise the injection oil temprature to 140 C. At that temprature veg oil is indistinguishable from diesel. It's used in conjunction with a one or two tank system.
http://www.dieselveg.com/injection_pipe_heating.htm

[vinrouge]

It could well be that the biodiesel was not good quality. But some if not all of the deposit will be due to the fact that biodiesel is a much stronger solvent that mineral diesel. For this reason, it is recommended that any vehicle switching to biodiesel should have a fuel filter change after the first 1000 miles, and then checked again at regular intervals. Ultimately, the biodiesel will, in fact, clean the engine.

[ITServe]

I ran my 1.9 TDI 140PS Seat Leon on up to 50% pure veg oil in the summer, 20% in the winter, for 2 years. I'd had the car from new, and when I started using pure veg oil it had about 64k on the clock.

This was a common rail diesel engine.

The only problem I ever had was slightly slow starting if it was a bit cold in the morning. Other than that the car ran perfectly and smoothly and with no loss of power (this was a chipped car too).

I did a lot or research first of course. The problems seem to come if polymers (plastics and rubbers) are using in the hoses and filter components which are not compatible with biodiesel or veg oil. Some rubber are porous to biodiesel and will swell or break down (or both). My engine had silicon rubber hoses and no parts susceptible to damage.

Another problem can be with some brands of fuel pumps. In the SEATs the LUCAS pumps cannot cope with the additional viscosity of the thicker veg oil. The Bosch pumps could. (Mine had the Bosch).

I've noticed on both of the newer cars I have now, a BM and a FORD Galaxy they specifically say NO BIODIESEL in the fuel filler cap, so I won't be risking veg oil in them at all. Likewise the new XC90 I have on order I believe says the same in the filler cap.

Most regular diesel at the pump is now 5% biodiesel made from rape seed oil, and this is fine.

[Mike1977]

I'm a Transport Manager, in charge of 18 Merc Sprinters and 7 company cars all different makes i.e BMW, Honda, Citroen and they have all sent letters to me saying if we put bio diesel in our cars or vans we are liable for all the repair costs, it later goes on to say that some cars have had to have new engines. The potential cost of 25 replacement engines or fuel pumps etc was enough for me to say it's better to pay the £1.10 per litre of the proper stuff.

I dare say the older diesel cars can probably run well on bio diesel but with the technology/expense involved in the common rail systems it's far better to use the recommended grade/type of fuel.

[whatarascal]

Just seen this thread.

If proper biodiesel is used.Then no harm should come to older engines and many common rail engines will happily run on it.

The transesterification of vegetable oils is a common process and if done correctly will save money carbon and also make your engine run cleaner.

Hombrewers world wide make some of the best biodiesel as this has to power their vehicles and they are responsible for what they put in the tank.

If a vehicle has done many thousands of miles on petrochemical diesel it is quite likely that proper biodiesel "not waste vegetable oil" will clean crud from within the tank and system left by said petrochemical carbon heavy fuel.

The answere to the clogging of filters in this case is to change on a regular basis untill all muck from tank has gone.

There is of course other problems shuch as nitrile seals and fuel pipes will soon perish so I have found it best to be proactive and change as and when needed to Viton seals and tubing this of course is on the older engines say pre year 2000.

Many of you may be interested in reading about or even getting involved in producing biodiesel..

Look here:http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=50

I have run my Transit for 3 years on bio 30000 miles.

Volvo 940 3 years and 25000 miles.

It cost me around £1000 to set up my production plant and my wast oil costs around 5p per liter.
The process costs around 15p per liter.
So you can see that the cost savings are massive.

By law we are allowed to make 2500 liters of fuel per year without the need to pay duty or register with HMCE

[chunderground]

sainsburys vegetable oil seems to work fine
smells like a chip pan though !

[jgs600]

my 2001 v40 estate 1.9 common rail runs sweet on my biodiesel:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::

[ian2000t]

Just put a tank of Biodiesel in my 760 D24Tic. £111.9/ltr.

Feels a little bit down on power when fully warm, not much different in the "just warmed up" stage, but cold it's much more awkward to start (my cold start is disconnected because it's broken though) and smokes like hell when first started. Also, smells like a chip shop burning down!

Also, the engine always clatters a lot, but seems worse - I'm thinking my timing may be too advanced? It's 0.98mm at the moment.

Bit worrying to see it destroyed a seal in the pump though. If it does do this, is it as simple as replacing the seal, or was there another reason a replacement pump was used?

[scr8pdo]

I ran my old Laguna on waste veg oil, straight out the fryer, no filtering at all, the car ran fine for about a month to 6 weeks and then it started to play up, lose power and smoke, I checked the filter which was only about 2 months old, it was full of white congealed fat like you see in the bottom of a oven pan after a roast Lamb/beef joint, that white fatty crud, so i shook the filter and poured some paraffin in and shook it up, it cleaned a lot out, whacked it back on the car and Voila' running fine for another week, it absolutely wreeaked of the food it was used to cook, a bit like a BAR-B-Q lol.


I have no doubt that if the old fat had been filtered the car would run fine, before i used the waste oil, i was using fresh clean veg oil out the supermarkets for almost a year with no probs at all.


I have about 60 gallons (not litres) of old waste oil and iam going to refine it when i learn how to filter/wash it, gonna buy some old 45 gallon drums and rig up a little distilary in my garden, lol

[Volvon]

I can't believe people put it in straight from the deep fat fryer, bits of chicken, fish cakes and chips floating round your fuel tank lol. It's tantamount to going to get 4 gallons of engine oil from a tanker thats ran a ground and oil washing up on the beach.

Filtered however (the more filtered the better but even just using a fine gauze will be an improvement!) is the real deal. I can only envy ya with my petrol engine.

But as soon as funds allow I am looking to get a Discovery TDi which I believe run very well on chip fat :)

[D5driver]

Bio is cheaper. It's cooking oil and in my opinion it's crap. It is the same as diesel but it is not as refined.

You have got confused with WVO.

My 2001 S60 D5 done over 10,000 miles running bio. It stopped 3 times and i was expecting it. And my car never smelt like a chip shop.

[scr8pdo]

I can't believe people put it in straight from the deep fat fryer, bits of chicken, fish cakes and chips floating round your fuel tank lol. It's tantamount to going to get 4 gallons of engine oil from a tanker thats ran a ground and oil washing up on the beach.

Filtered however (the more filtered the better but even just using a fine gauze will be an improvement!) is the real deal. I can only envy ya with my petrol engine.

But as soon as funds allow I am looking to get a Discovery TDi which I believe run very well on chip fat :)


What engine will you be going for in your disco 300 or 200? the 200 is a much stronger albeit a bit agricultural, I had both, Landy owners will swear by the 200, I ran both on biodiesel, in fact it was the very first time i tried it in my 200, they were selling it at a local garage out of the pump so i tried it, I got to say it was definatly quieter running on bio, hardly noticed the difference in power, maybe a slight loss at top end but the pump biodiesel wasnt much cheaper anyway, i then ran both (200 and 300) on SVO without any probs, just smelled like a doughnut van driving behind it, I never tried WVO but know plenty of peeps who do, just got to spend time refining it, tbh I was running mine on Rose' ;) @ 50p/litre but its a risk if you get caught, will lose the car or 500 notes fine first time, i wasnt fussed as the 200 i was running wasnt worth 500 tbh, it was rotten but looked dead straight and clean, I do miss my old Discos

[scr8pdo]

I ran out of diesel right in the centre of Wigan, right accross the entrance to the National coach station, I was on crutches, so my mate pushed me into a taxi rank (only space available) and he was late for an appointment, if you know Wigan you will know there are no petrol stations round the town centre apart from Tesco which was a long way away for someone on crutches, so I thought what can I do?


I put a note under the wiper to say id broken down, I then limped to Morrisons about 5 mins away and bought 2x3 litre bottles of veg oil and limped back to the car, my friend was waiting when I got back and he couldnt believe his eyes when I started pouring the veg oil in the tank, it needed priming and I pumped the best i could with the manual purge pump but the battery was on its last legs so went flat quick, people were sitting outside the pub watching in disbelief as i coasted down the hill and bumped it into life, it was running superb and i got a cheer from the pub customers, I used it all the time after that as it was only 99p a litre compared to the 135/litre at the pumps and it never missed a beat on the SVO, it did smell sweet like a doughnut van but ran absolutely fine for a year like that

[RoyMacDonald]

I ran my old Laguna on waste veg oil, straight out the fryer, no filtering at all, the car ran fine for about a month to 6 weeks and then it started to play up, lose power and smoke, I checked the filter which was only about 2 months old, it was full of white congealed fat like you see in the bottom of a oven pan after a roast Lamb/beef joint, that white fatty crud, so i shook the filter and poured some paraffin in and shook it up, it cleaned a lot out, whacked it back on the car and Voila' running fine for another week, it absolutely wreeaked of the food it was used to cook, a bit like a BAR-B-Q lol.


I have no doubt that if the old fat had been filtered the car would run fine, before i used the waste oil, i was using fresh clean veg oil out the supermarkets for almost a year with no probs at all.


I have about 60 gallons (not litres) of old waste oil and iam going to refine it when i learn how to filter/wash it, gonna buy some old 45 gallon drums and rig up a little distilary in my garden, lol

What do you do when bacteria culture starts growing in the tank?

[scr8pdo]

What do you do when bacteria culture starts growing in the tank?

Never thought of that but I assume the filter would take care of it along with other debris

[RoyMacDonald]

Never thought of that but I assume the filter would take care of it along with other debris

Yes it's very common for the filter to be completly clogged with black gunk nowdays, with even on the relativly small amount of bio fuel in regular diesel. That's the bacteria. Needs the tank and fuel lines cleaned and a new filter, and use a filling station with a high turnover of fuel.

That's what's always put me off making my own bio. It dosn't keep for long periods and I'm not a high enough milage user to avoid it growing bacteria.

[scr8pdo]

I have currently still got about 55-60 gallons (not litres) of Waste veg oil sitting in my back yard, but some of its really cruddy, does anyone know how to convert it into biodiesel properly?

It seems a shame to waste it with the cost of diesel lately.


On another note I must say that iam extremely impressed with the MPG figures Ive been getting out of my TDi Auto, round town Ive been averaging about 40 mpg when driving sensibly and much better on a run on the motorway, I love it, you really can have your cake and eat it, big lovely Volvo capable of carrying 7 people, full leathers, full electric pack, Alloys, all in all a luxurious big car with a biggish turbocharged engine giving 140 BHP (that can be upgraded) and still get 40-45 MPG :thumbs_up:

[v40bart]

Making your own bio diesel is really easy. All you need is a tank to use as a reactor (I would buy a purpose made one), methanol and caustic soda. The simplest way to try it is fill a 2 litre bottle with a mixture of clean oil (rape seed or sunflower) and methanol that has some caustic soda dissolved in it. I think it was 1 part methanol to 5 parts of oil and 4 grams of soda per litre of oil, but don't quote me on that, check the net, the recipe is everywhere. You heat your oil to 60 Celsius to separate the water and speed up the reaction. After the water is separated mix oil and soda-methanol mixture, screw the cap on and shake the bottle for a few minutes. Live the bottle to stand and after some time you will notice that the mixture separates into glycerol (fatty acid, bottom) and bio diesel (lovely golden fluid on top). It needs to be filtered to one micron and washed to remove water. I hope I got that right...

If you can get some restaurant to let you take their used up oil, you are able to make your own diesel for about 30p a litre or sammat like that.

[Laney760]

I have currently still got about 55-60 gallons (not litres) of Waste veg oil sitting in my back yard, but some of its really cruddy, does anyone know how to convert it into biodiesel properly?

It seems a shame to waste it with the cost of diesel lately.


On another note I must say that iam extremely impressed with the MPG figures Ive been getting out of my TDi Auto, round town Ive been averaging about 40 mpg when driving sensibly and much better on a run on the motorway, I love it, you really can have your cake and eat it, big lovely Volvo capable of carrying 7 people, full leathers, full electric pack, Alloys, all in all a luxurious big car with a biggish turbocharged engine giving 140 BHP (that can be upgraded) and still get 40-45 MPG :thumbs_up:


Although I mostly use SVO, if I ever use WVO I simply strain it through a J-cloth which is about 5 microns which is perfectly adequate; if you want to be ultra fussy you can buy 1 micron filter/paper. I don't add anything to it.

[ian2000t]

Although I mostly use SVO, if I ever use WVO I simply strain it through a J-cloth which is about 5 microns which is perfectly adequate; if you want to be ultra fussy you can buy 1 micron filter/paper. I don't add anything to it.

I think the main problem with WVO - which you don't seem to be addressing is the water content.

[Laney760]

I think the main problem with WVO - which you don't seem to be addressing is the water content.

After its been standing most of the crap and water sink to the bottom anyway so as you strain it off you only strain what you can see is good, ie the top 90% or whatever

[ian2000t]

After its been standing most of the crap and water sink to the bottom anyway so as you strain it off you only strain what you can see is good, ie the top 90% or whatever

True! Do you heat yours? If I can find a chippy to supply me, I was thinking about getting some plastic containers for it and covering them in black bags to absorb the heat and leave them in the garden.

[scr8pdo]

I still got all mine stacked up out the back in 20 litre drums, some of it is rotten dirty and in a couple of the containers that are plastic see-through, you can see the water seperation, I just been given a 45 gallon drum to start filtering the stuff, I gonna get it as clean as possible, do you really need to buy loads of methanol to (WASH) this stuff of can it be seperated from the water and filtered? as I said earlier I was runninng my old Laguna on it as it was, there were lumps and chips going in lol, afetr about a week or two it started running rough, I took the filter off and you could see it all blocked up, I shook it out, replaced it and carried on for a while til I ran the car in, the car ran fine in fact it was quieter and seemed smoother running on clean veg oil out the supermarket, when it was at 99p/litre I was buying tons of it, honestly if it was this price all the time I wouldnt hesitate to use it in my V70, other than that iam experimenting next week on how to remove red dye lol ;)

[Laney760]

True! Do you heat yours? If I can find a chippy to supply me, I was thinking about getting some plastic containers for it and covering them in black bags to absorb the heat and leave them in the garden.

No, no heater fitted, although it's cheap enough, as I can run on about 70% svo or wvo in the winter without a problem starting with this percentage. I wouldn't go above that percentage anyway with wvo. I don't very often get hold of wvo, most restaurants and chippies have the solid stuff nowadays and I only use the svo when its on offer and cheaper than diesel, then I stock up on it. I live near a VW specialist and they use 70% max svo in their vw td's. The only reason I haven't replaced my seals in the pump with viton ones is that I am lucky enough to have a spare pump but if I were using svo all the time I would have the seals replaced at a diesel specialists. I figure my usage cleans my engine out a fair bit, helps me out a bit financially and helps the environment a bit and I always put a few litres of svo in just prior to mot emissions testing!

[arcturus]

Just saw this thread. I think that it's immoral growing crops to convert into fuel when there are so many starving people in the world. We should be growing food, not fuel!

[scr8pdo]

Just saw this thread. I think that it's immoral growing crops to convert into fuel when there are so many starving people in the world. We should be growing food, not fuel!


Yep totally agree, but fuel prices must drop, theyre getting insane!

[ian2000t]

Just saw this thread. I think that it's immoral growing crops to convert into fuel when there are so many starving people in the world. We should be growing food, not fuel!

That's SVO!!

WVO is WASTE Veg Oil - i.e. not been grown specially for use in our cars - been grown and USED for food - THEN we are turning it into a fuel.

So, it's BETTER for the planet because we are using something that would be thrown away, and we're not using a fossil fuel!

[scr8pdo]

That's SVO!!

WVO is WASTE Veg Oil - i.e. not been grown specially for use in our cars - been grown and USED for food - THEN we are turning it into a fuel.

So, it's BETTER for the planet because we are using something that would be thrown away, and we're not using a fossil fuel!

Yep its recycling, and useful too, I would just like to find out an easy economical way of processing the cruddy stuff I have in my yard

[LankyTim]

Has anyone tried frying chips in Diesel yet?

[RoyMacDonald]

Has anyone tried frying chips in Diesel yet?

Recipe for an early grave, just like the Volvo's run on bio? Haven't seen any high milers run on the stuff.

[Laney760]

Recipe for an early grave, just like the Volvo's run on bio? Haven't seen any high milers run on the stuff.

There are plenty of VW TDs that have done 200-300,000 plus on bio so a well-maintained Volvo (VW) D24Tic on full synth should be in with a good chance of reaching high mileage

[RoyMacDonald]

There are plenty of VW TDs that have done 200-300,000 plus on bio so a well-maintained Volvo (VW) D24Tic on full synth should be in with a good chance of reaching high mileage

The Volvo's with that engine I've seen on here run on vegi oil don't seem to last very long. Not over 670,000 and still going strong like the diesel fuel ones I've seen. Maybe I've just seen the best and worst?

[ian2000t]

The Volvo's with that engine I've seen on here run on vegi oil don't seem to last very long. Not over 670,000 and still going strong like the diesel fuel ones I've seen. Maybe I've just seen the best and worst?

I haven't really heard of ANY doing over 670,000 miles!

Possibly people dumping WVO/Bio in the tank are generally tighter so skip service intervals more than those running on V-Power diesel?

[RoyMacDonald]

I haven't really heard of ANY doing over 670,000 miles!

Possibly people dumping WVO/Bio in the tank are generally tighter so skip service intervals more than those running on V-Power diesel?

Good point.

Peter at Charlwood Volvo has one (I think there was also another one with 660,000 miles in there last time I had a service. A dark blue) and so has a builder I know. Check the high milage register for Peter's, although I don't think it's been updated since 660,000 miles.

[Element]

I have a '99 V70 which has run fairly happily on SVO (Straight or new Veg oil) (40%) and fossil diesel (60%) mix for some time. This yr I decided to build a biodiesel processor and make my own - with the sole intention of using it in the V70. I bought a kit from a company called 'Oilybits' and have thus far collected some 500lts of WVO (Waste Veg Oil).
Have now built the housing shed in the back garden for it, tomorrow I'll be fitting the heating element, pump & electrics. By Friday I hope to be buying 100Lts Methanol & 25kg of KOH (Potassium Hydroxide); that should last me for the current 500lts WVO conversion.
I spent a long time researching and studying the process and although the fuel filter does need changing to begin with, I foresee no major problems (the car has done 160k anyway). There's lots of 'scare stories' on the web, all kinds of nonsense and hyped fears about engine failures etc...
The facts are that if you know the bio is quality made (very carefully processed and 'washed and dried') before it goes in the tank then there's no risk, but if you don't know whether it has been made correctly or whether it has been fully dewatered - then you are leaving yourself open to risk.

My perspective is - if you study the principles and learn the facts - you'll get no unwelcome surprises; I expect to change the filter several times to begin with and I will change some of the fuel hoses before introducing the bio anyway. As for the pump seals - I'll look into to that too. The bottom line is cost versus economy; if a bio litre costs me about 20% of the price of a litre of standard diesel - then I am 80% up to begin with. The inevitable costs of whatever changes I have to make to the system when running bio won't add up to make it still worth running on standard diesel...
I collect my WVO from hotels and takeaways, it sits in the garage in semi transparent poly containers for a month, this results in the oil separating from the crud and emulsified gloop which sinks to the bottom. Then I pour off the actual oil and let that stand for more time. Then I syphon this oil into a 25 micron filter before storing it ready for the processor. This results in a cleaner process of each batch of bio made.

After the methoxide and oil are heated and mixed together, the reaction creates Glycerol (which sinks to the bottom and gets removed) and biodiesel. There are two further processes for this 'raw' biodiesel to firstly remove excess methanol in it, first is the 'washing' by adding water to the bio - because the methanol molecules are acutely attracted to water molecules. Then secondly there is the drying - where the heated (60*) bio is bubbled with air for up to a few hours using a compressor feed at the base of the processor; this drives off the water. Afterwards you can test the quality of the produced bio and confirm there is no water left in it.

When you simply "buy" biodiesel and chuck it in the tank - you can't tell whether it has been adequately washed and dried; that is a probable cause for at least some of the scare stories and fears on the web.

I'll post back to let you know how I get on.

[Element]

Here's the update....

I have now made 500 lts of bio from waste cooking oil as earlier described and after changing the fuel filter @1000 miles, I have now done some 2,600 miles on 100% bio with no real problems. Initially my bio processing wasn't so great (its a learning curve believe me! Lots of different procedures and tests before it's ready to use) and I was a little too keen to get it in the tank... Now I take my time and make a 90/100 lt batch over 4-5 days and the quality has gone right up. It should be perfectly clear, bright and have no soap at all ( there is a final test called the 50/50 where you get a small jar, put 1/2 bio & 1/2 hot water in then close the lid & shake it hard, the result is the contents go cloudy & emulsify, you then leave it for 10 minutes, at the end of which it should have separated back into two layers with perfectly clear water beneath and slightly cloudy bio on top. The bio absorbs up to 5% water making it cloudy. If the water goes & stays cloudy then it indicates the presence of soaps (a by product of the processing). I get rid of the soaps through water mist washing; with a special hose attachment, I spray very fine droplets of water onto the top of the bio in the processing tank. As the water is heavier (more dense) than the bio, the water slowly sinks through it and settles at the bottom of the tank, as it passes through - it picks up the soapy particles on route and thus it looks milky when I open the base tap and let it out. I probably have to pass 120+ lts water through the bio to get it clear of soap.
The facts are, for my 1999 2.5 tdi (Audi manufactured) engine, the bio is perfectly ok. As it gets colder in temperature I will need to add some anti gelling additive (of which there are several on the market) to it because ordinarily, bio begins to gell up around -1C.
Interestingly, when I used to hard accelerate when running diesel, I'd get the dark cloud of unburnt fuel and smoke in the rear view mirror behind the car... but with bio - there's nothing at all, no smoke whatsoever; it's very clean running. I notice no difference in power or performance but lose perhaps 10% in mpg - but with the cost to me of about 30p / litre to make it... I don't worry about losing 10% economy:regular_smile:

[Danger]

Have tried 50/50 bio with black diesel in the v40 td, it ran fine like that for 10k, better if anything, same performance but less rattle. Have experimented with 70/30 black with svo, worked fine too. Just trying to find a new local supplier for b100 so I can keep saving a few quid.

The pics on page 1 show what happens if you throw unfiltered waste oil in, not good. Get the good stuff and you have no problems

[kebab10]

I reaaly couldnt give a rats about bio diesel. As long as diesel is "cheap" gives good mileage, I dont care where it comes from As for emissions, tis a tax pure and simple raised so governements can create jobs for the boys.

[kebab10]

Seems I have upset someone and been given the thumbs down. For giving an honest opinion I have had my wrist slapped. I dont see why the politicians here and in Brussels cant leave the fuel we have alone and not pander constantly to the "greens" and impose needless taxes on the pretence of "helping the environment".
I for one will continue to use whatever fuel I like and and be damned. Been around a long time, and will spend a longer time dead; so intend to spend my remaining time doing what I enjoy and spend what I like and not what whatever flavour of party is in control.

[Daim]

If I had an older diesel (non commonrail and non VW TDi via "Pumpe-Düse"), I would use vegi-oil or bio diesel as they can be altered to run on that in summer. Winter needs a few more modifications, but it is all possible.

People who say they only tank diese, tank bio-diesel too. By European law, diesel MUST have a 7% RME (RME = bio-diesel) amount as a minimum. German tests revealed (in Germany) an average of around 9-10% - which is a lot!

[ian2000t]

I now use 50/50 SVO/Diesel in my 760 TD. Runs fine - little bit cranky and very rattly when cold, but my cold start device doesn't work anyway so that doesn't help.

As I now know it runs fine on SVO, I can now start collecting waste veg oil (WVO) to filter/dewater. Tried Biodiesel and it ran fine on it, but starting was terrible. I did try more than 50% though.

One thing I am yet to try is 70% SVO; 5% Unleaded; 25% Diesel... Unleaded helps to thin it out much more than Diesel does. Some guys on the veggie forum ryun 80% WVO; 20% Petrol - no Diesel.