Advice on SORN

[morsing]

I have a car that failed it's MOT and I can't afford to fix it right now. It's been parked in my driveway for three months.
The insurance runs out in a month and tax in about two months.

Do I need to SORN register it when the insurance runs out or when the tax runs out?

What can I do when it's SORN? If I start fixing it can I drive it up and down the street to test it?
Can I drive it to the MOT? Anything else I should be aware of?

Thanks for any advice.

[Alec Dawe]

As I understand the law, you only have to SORN it when the TAX runs out. Insurance is your own problem if its not on the highway but on your property.
You CAN'T drive it on the road at all, EXCEPT to drive it to a nearby MOT test station, for Pre BOOKED appointment (not a drive-in one), and for that you must have insurance.

[740Estate]

If I start fixing it can I drive it up and down the street to test it?

Can I drive it to the MOT?

No,
Yes.

If you cant find definite proof for the SORN requirements, best to SORN it. That way you wont fall foul of the 'Computer'

[morsing]

Thanks to both of you. What do I need to do to remove the SORN again? Just renew the tax?

[740Estate]

Yes mate. Automatically cancels the SORN

[blues60]

As said, you must have either valid tax for the car OR a SORN notice. If you don't have one of those you will get fined automatically by "THE COMPUTER!".
If you still want to "test drive" the car on the road I would speak to your insurance company and explain that you only need basic cover but don't get caught "test driving" it on a road if you have a SORN, they will fine you heavily. AFAIK you cannot use a car on a SORN notice AT ALL on a road, you have to tax it.

[penninepullman]

Another aspect of SORN that , I think, is hidden in small print. If you purchase a car with a SORN notice, it is NOT transferable to new owner (unlike a tax disc).
You have to declare a new SORN as soon as purchasing the car (unless you tax it).
I didn't do a SORN for about 2 weeks (waited for new log book), and was informed that I could be fined. Fortunately commonsense prevailed (from the DVLA!) and no further action took place.

[faster4_tec]

all above is correct, you must have your car insured, even if its sorn'd and not mot'd unless its totally on your property, and the posty can't insure himself on it, i.e not parked infront of your door etc

[Velorum]

The 'slightly' good news is that it seems a lot easier to tax cars these days - at one time if you bought a car with no tax you had to mess about with various forms and then go to a large tax office. Now you just take whatever part of the log book you happen to have and pay. I guess this comes from their desire to get a hold of your cash quicker rather than being helpful!!!!

[the_boy]

Picked from DVLA website:

Under the system of Continuous Registration (CR), which commenced in January 2004, it is not necessary for your vehicle to be sighted on the public road, for an offence to have been committed. DVLA now has the authority to carry out enforcement action against the registered keeper directly from information held on the vehicle licence records.

The law allows 14 days from the date the licence was due in which to relicense. SORN declarations are only required if the vehicle is going to be kept off road beyond this period. However, if the vehicle is used or kept on a public road it must display a valid tax disc.

Minimum fine is £80. You'd be breaking the law even if you took it to an MOT station without tax.

[Alec Dawe]

Picked from DVLA website:



Minimum fine is £80. You'd be breaking the law even if you took it to an MOT station without tax.

There's a get out clause for this, otherwise you'd be in a Catch 22 situation. (Can't tax it without an MOT, and can't get it to an MOT station without tax!)
You ARE allowed to drive to a nearby MOT station, for a pre-booked appointment, without road tax, but MUST be insured.
MOT must be near(!) so you can't drive it from Cornwall to Scotland, and the MOT apointment MUST be a proper booking, not MOT's while U wait.
This is the only time (as far as I am aware) that you can legally drive an un-taxed car on the road.

[PaulR]

If you declare Sorn now would you not get a tax refund on the 2 months left over ?

[Citizen.Agfa]

If you declare Sorn now would you not get a tax refund on the 2 months left over ?

Only if you simultaneously apply for a refund of VED on a separate form.

Regards, Nick.

[migrator]

Apart from going to and returning from a pre-booked MOT test, you are also permitted to drive the car - with appropriate insurance - to/from a place of repair to have MOT repairs carried out. There is no definition of what is a reasonable distance to cover to the MOT station. This is down to the officer who stops you on the way (so say my local plod).

[peteS40]

BTW the minimum legal insurance is third party only, and the vehicle needs insurance i.e if you are insured to drive "other vehicles" 3rd party on your own insurance then that's no good because the vehicle itself needs to be covered under someones insurance somewhere.

But the fine for not having insurance is probably realistically less than I could reasonably charge for my time in writing this post!

It is very good of you to stay legal, probably at least half the people out there would just drive the car with no insurance or tax for a fair while and probably a good 2/3 of them would get away with it!

Pete

[foggyjames]

I have, on a couple of occasions, driven cars (or witnessed them being driven) which I have later learned would be judged in court to have been without insurance, etc, etc. All this was in good faith, and without the slightest intention of breaking the law. The rules are complex, ambiguous, and quite often it is very difficult to get accurate answers to questions on this subject.

cheers

James

[morsing]

Well, I'm confused. I need to get the car to a garage but they don't do MOTs. Can I drive it?

From Thames Valley Police' website:

http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/faq/default.asp?Action=Q&ID=242

Quote:
# where a test has been failed;

* vehicles being driven from the place where the test took place
* vehicles being taken to or brought from a place where work is done to put right the defects discovered at a previous test. Again, this must be pre-arranged


I phoned up PEC however, and they told me I can't drive it to and from a garage, only MOT :(

I need to pay for transportation now :(

[morsing]

And the MET as well:

http://www.met.police.uk/askthemet/515.htm

Why did the woman I spoke to tell me no?

[chow]

And the MET as well:

http://www.met.police.uk/askthemet/515.htm

Why did the woman I spoke to tell me no?because women like to say no

[peteS40]

because women like to say no

Easy.... you'll have that Sarah (or whatever her name was) giving you gyp again :D


Re. the MOT yeah definitely you can drive to have it a garage otherwise how could you get it fixed and re-MOT'd??!!! Dunno how far the garage is allowed to be though, like suppose you booked it in for somewhere in scotland you could go for a nice weekend break with no MOT first.... or maybe not....

[foggyjames]

Yeah, that lass was telling you a pack of lies - you can drive it to and from a place of repair. The cops' phone operatives are in the habit of making up the law as the go along, I've found...

cheers

James

[arcturus]

The rules are quite clear.You can only drive an untaxed vehicle to pre booked MOT.

[foggyjames]

I'm afraid that's not right. It's well hidden (to the point where I can't find said clause on a Gov website in the 2 mins I'm prepared to spend looking, but there are plenty of references to it elsewhere), probably because they're worried about people flouting the rules...but you are allowed to drive a vehicle without tax or test to a pre-arranged appointment at "a place of repair". I've done it myself more than once, and been advised I can do so by numerous testers. The car must be insured, obviously.

The wording is ambiguous enough that it doesn't even have to be a 'proper' garage, but I think you'd have a harder time arguing that with an officer of the law!

cheers

James

[TheJoyOfSix]

The rules are quite clear.You can only drive an untaxed vehicle to pre booked MOT.

Or to a place that is going to carry out repairs that the car failed its MOT on or for repairs in order for it to pass its MOT.

Thus a car that's been SORN for a while that develops a large hole in the floor can be driven to be repaired if it's going to be MOT'd, but it couldn't be driven just to be resprayed as this is not tested.

[stephen-in-hull]

The Swansea guys have a useful F A Q booklet reference INS 160, snappily titled "United Kingdom Registration Certificate Guidance Notes".

You could write to

DVLA,
Swansea
SA7 0EE

ring 0870 850 1285

textphone or minicom 01792 766 426

or fax 0870 850 1285

to ask for a copy.

Yoiu can also find a lot of info on

www.vehiclelicence.gov.uk


Don't forget that you can obtain a refund for complete months of unexpired tax, if you decide to take the vehicle off the road.

[peteS40]

I'm afraid that's not right. It's well hidden (to the point where I can't find said clause on a Gov website in the 2 mins I'm prepared to spend looking, but there are plenty of references to it elsewhere)

You lot obviously aren't used to failing your MOT! :D

It (always did) say it on the failure form you'd get given!!
You can take it to a pre-booked appt. at a garage which is going to fix a defect shown on the failure form in order to enable the MOT to be passed.

Think about it... imagine if that wasn't permitted. Your car goes in for an MOT to a place that only does MOTs. How can you possibly get it MOT'd if you're not allowed to go and get it fixed?!

[morsing]

Well, I printed out the "evidence" from the two websites including the address for the garage I was going to, and had booked and appointment with, and drove down there late last night. Car didn't fall apart :)

[LankyTim]

This is yet another area where the rules are somewhat blurred to say the least. Even the police dont know the full story in alot of cases!

From what I understand you can drive a car to have its MOT, and back home again when it fails. On the MOT fail sheet you will see a place where it says "In my opinion the vehicle is unsafe to drive because of the following defects" and if there are any serious defects, e.g severe rust, collapsed suspension or similar the MOT tester lists them and then it would be illegal to drive it anywhere to be repaired, and it would have to be repaired at home, or collected on a trailer. If the MOT tester has put a line though the part that asks him to list any dangerous defects that would mean the car was dangerous to drive or hasnt filled it in at all then its ok to drive it to other garages or workshops to have MOT work carried out before its retested.

The only problem with this system is that if you have an accident and write your car off the insurance people ask for all the documentation though the post including the MOT and if its out of date, your insurance wont pay up for your car. I think you are still covered third party though.

[morsing]

Ok, hopefully the last question on this but I've run in to a technical difficulty...

Car passed it's MOT yesterday (yay! :) ) but need to get a tax disc before tomorrow since I have to drive it to an event.

Can't find my certificate of insurance. I've got the policy and the rest of it but...
So the question is, if I do this by phone, I won't receive the disc for a few days but would I be allowed to drive the car from I phone up and pay?

Thanks

[penninepullman]

Why not renew tax on-line rather than phone?
The 'system' automatically checks for valid insurance and MOT (big brother is watching us!!)
Also you get an e-mail confirmation that you have requested new tax disc.

This would then give you some proof of having a taxed vehicle if you were stopped.
As I understand it, the police have to refer any vehicle tax issues to DVLA who decide whether to proceed with prosecution/fines, and as you will have paid for your tax there would be no further action.

[morsing]

Hmm... Confusing. The V11 says I have to fill in a V10 but the post office said I didn't ave to. Anyway, got my tax disc now.

[Citizen.Agfa]

Why not renew tax on-line rather than phone?
The 'system' automatically checks for valid insurance and MOT (big brother is watching us!!)
Also you get an e-mail confirmation that you have requested new tax disc.

This would then give you some proof of having a taxed vehicle if you were stopped.
As I understand it, the police have to refer any vehicle tax issues to DVLA who decide whether to proceed with prosecution/fines, and as you will have paid for your tax there would be no further action.

Not quite, Kimo Sabe; there is still the offence of "Failure to Display".

Regards, Nick "Nitpicker" Heneghan.

[peteS40]

"Failure to display" I think is punishable with a fine of maybe £100 or several hundred pounds but failure to buy a tax disc could be a lot worse! So if you want the lesser of two evils, buy but don't display... and do a quick u-turn if you see any of those cameras the old bill use to check for tax!!

But I would just order a cover note or something for the insurance asap, it should be there the next day.

Plus, there is a kind of "unofficial grace period" or about 14 days after your tax runs out, when you probably won't get done.... (unless the copper has had a bad day)... so if you go for the "failure to display" make sure you still display your old tax, failure to display any tax would likely be much worse!

Pete

[222s]

Plus, there is a kind of "unofficial grace period" or about 14 days after your tax runs out, when you probably won't get done....

The DVLA's continuous licensing computer system doesn't recognise this!

Also, I know someone who was fined for having no tax, even though he was on his way back from the MOT & had stopped at the post office to buy the new tax disc, which he produced to the warden / plod when he arrived back at his car.....

Yes, that's right - the law requires taking the car straight home from thr MOT, parking it off the public highway & then getting to the post office by other means!

[SIAMBLUE]

You can actually declare SORN on the DVLA web site now, i did it on my old S70, very easy.

Gary

[LankyTim]

Sorry folks the 14 day grace period is history. Too many people skipping a month when their tax ran out apparently (me included!)

[foggyjames]

There is still a grace period under other circumstances I believe...for example where you've just bought a car which was previously SORN'd, you have two weeks to re-SORN or tax. That was still the case in March, anyway.

cheers

James

[peteS40]

If he gets a tax disc on-line but "fails to display" for 14 days coz e.g it takes 5 days to turn up in the post then I bet he would be ok if displaying the old tax if stopped by a copper.

Plus if he didn't buy one for a couple of days I bet you any money he wouldn't get done just like that.

Go on, one of you wise a*ses come back and tell me about your mate who got done for a trillion pounds for being one day late on buying is tax disc, go on, you know you want to.....

[foggyjames]

I've been a few days late twice now, and haven't been done. Fingers crossed.

I'm taking the 240 to 'a place of repair' and for an MOT on Tuesday, so fingers crossed on that front too!

cheers

James

[DLM48]

There's a get out clause for this, otherwise you'd be in a Catch 22 situation. (Can't tax it without an MOT, and can't get it to an MOT station without tax!)
You ARE allowed to drive to a nearby MOT station, for a pre-booked appointment, without road tax, but MUST be insured.
MOT must be near(!) so you can't drive it from Cornwall to Scotland, and the MOT apointment MUST be a proper booking, not MOT's while U wait.
This is the only time (as far as I am aware) that you can legally drive an un-taxed car on the road.



there is NO definition of distance related to the MOT test you CAN drive from one end of the country to the other PROVIDED you are going to a prebooked test.

ALSO 'the car' does NOT need to be insured IF you dont own the car and your insurance allows you to drive cars not owned by you that is enough.

regards

David

[foggyjames]

I was under the impression that a car to be driven 3rd party from another policy had to be insured 'somewhere' in its own right. If that's true, we've probably broken that rule a few times in the past without realising it, but ho hum...if they will make it so damn complex.

cheers

James

[peteS40]

I was under the impression that a car to be driven 3rd party from another policy had to be insured 'somewhere' in its own right.

I'm almost certain that is the case

Pete

[DLM48]

I was under the impression that a car to be driven 3rd party from another policy had to be insured 'somewhere' in its own right. If that's true, we've probably broken that rule a few times in the past without realising it, but ho hum...if they will make it so damn complex.

cheers

James

Pete[/QUOTE]

WRONG the offence is driving while uninsured

IF YOUR Policy lets you drive cars not owned by you then that car does not have to be insured

THINK ABOUT IT

you get stopped and you get a 7 days to produce your documents ticket

when you show your documents at the local nick all you have to do is take your insurance documents in

if that says either the reg number of the vehicle OR any car not owned by you (and as you dont own this car that you were driving when you got stopped) then you are insured and not commiting any offence

it has nothing to do with any other insurance that may or may not be in existance for the vehicle that you were driving at the time

[chow]

Ok, hopefully the last question on this but I've run in to a technical difficulty...

Car passed it's MOT yesterday (yay! :) ) but need to get a tax disc before tomorrow since I have to drive it to an event.

Can't find my certificate of insurance. I've got the policy and the rest of it but...
So the question is, if I do this by phone, I won't receive the disc for a few days but would I be allowed to drive the car from I phone up and pay?

Thankswhy not do it on line? your mot /insurance details are now available held by the dvlc its dead easy ive just taxed mine this way all you need is the car reg and the reg document id number

[peteS40]

That is true DLM48 but I thought that one condition the insurer's put on you driving another car is that the car in question has to have a policy on it?

Certainly the case for a fire/theft claim. If you are insured 3rd party on a car that is only to drive it.

I am sure you are right about the offence/law thing, but what about if you need to make a claim? Would you be covered.

Pete

[DLM48]

That is true DLM48 but I thought that one condition the insurer's put on you driving another car is that the car in question has to have a policy on it?

Certainly the case for a fire/theft claim. If you are insured 3rd party on a car that is only to drive it.

I am sure you are right about the offence/law thing, but what about if you need to make a claim? Would you be covered.

Pete

why would you not be covered for any accidents or claims if you policy says you are???? do you think insurance companies tell lies he he............seriously though covered is covered surely

My insurance company suggested that i put my(our) new car in my partners name so i could drive it home on my policy as the policy for the new car did not start for 6 weeks and as we had only three days of road tax left and as we were going on holiday just as the road tax ran out so it did seem silly to both tax and insure the car when we would not be able to enjoy it. Yes it sat untaxed (on a SORN) and uninsured during that period but safely tucked away off road They also suggested that if i wanted to be 'the registered' owner that she could drive it home on her policy. As the car in question was/is a MB SL 500 she was not keen on driving it home so she is the registered owner and i drove it home on my policy

ALL suggested by the people 'who really know' the insurance company themselves.

[LankyTim]

I was under the impression too that a car you drove that you didnt own on an "any car" policy had to have its own insurance with the person on the log book. Somone in insurance told me that, but I dont know why its the case. The car would be pulled up on those new police camera things too for not being insured.

Maybe its to stop people insuring a 2CV, buying a Sierra Cosworth, putting it in their missus name and driving it on an "any car" policy on the 2CV- just a thought....

[DLM48]

I was under the impression too that a car you drove that you didnt own on an "any car" policy had to have its own insurance with the person on the log book. Somone in insurance told me that, but I dont know why its the case. The car would be pulled up on those new police camera things too for not being insured.

Maybe its to stop people insuring a 2CV, buying a Sierra Cosworth, putting it in their missus name and driving it on an "any car" policy on the 2CV- just a thought....

well if you watch those police vids with the yabba yabba doo system - the other week on the TV they were seen pulling over i think it was an uninsured Golf - however it was being driven by a motor mechanic on road test and was covered by his insurance - so yes it did 'find' the uninsured car but it actually was insured when it was being driven on the road by the driver at the time.

your above 'suggestion' is perfectly legal - however 'they' have that one sorted - MOST policies for young drivers dont allow you to drive other cars not owned by you - age does have some benefits

[foggyjames]

Trade insurance could be a special case. I don't know, but I'm reluctant to suggest people try it on. I'm certainly not pulling this 'gotta be insured in its own right somewhere' out of thin air...but whether it's law or not is a different matter.

One thing this thread definitely highlights is that the rules are FAR from clear!

cheers

James

[DLM48]

Trade insurance could be a special case. I don't know, but I'm reluctant to suggest people try it on. I'm certainly not pulling this 'gotta be insured in its own right somewhere' out of thin air...but whether it's law or not is a different matter.

One thing this thread definitely highlights is that the rules are FAR from clear!

cheers

James


why would trade insurance be any different all it is is more expensive as you are regularly driving cars not owned by you and in connection with your buisness - just reasons for hiking the premiums.

not really all it highlights is that there is some confusion among the people who posted here IF IN DOUBT ask your insurance company - they ARE THE EXPERTS HERE for sure i am 100% clear on the rules you need to be insured to drive a car on UK roads it is that simple - how you achieve that has a few options as have been discussed here.

[Chris_C]

It's not law as far as I've ever seen, but on every policy of mine that has offered 3rd party coverage on a car not owned by myself it has stated in the policy (not the certificate, the 30 odd page booklet that comes with it) that they car you wish to drive not owned by yourself DOES require at least third party insurance on a separate policy (in legal jargon that is always a tad special... can you get less than third party insurance?)

It is as previously suggested to stop the average 17yr old buying and insuring a moped, and then driving around in an XR3i in their grans name. (Well... thats what the insurance broker told me when I was 17, as I was trying to not be on my parents policy and build up some no claims :engel016:).

As the previous post says... if in doubt ask your insurance company or read the hooge great policy document, and not all insurance companies are the same, the random differences in prices are usually there for a reason!

[LankyTim]

I think theres one lower than third party called road traffic act, Im told its for people with abysmal driving records and isnt issued very often.

[James_N]

I was under the impression that a car to be driven 3rd party from another policy had to be insured 'somewhere' in its own right. If that's true, we've probably broken that rule a few times in the past without realising it, but ho hum...if they will make it so damn complex.

cheers

James

I was also under the same impression.

[LankyTim]

To make things more complicated, you are only breaking the law (or alteast only open to prosecution) if you KNOW that you are uninsured. If, for example you borrow someones car, and they give them impression that he car is insured for you and you find out after a police check that it isnt insured then your not guilty of an offence. Wouldnt like to put that to the test though!

[cbyard]

Presumably whoever lent it would then be open to prosecution for aiding and abetting or some such?

Chris

[alsner]

Yup, had mates a long time ago who both fell fowl of this, both got 8 points and a nice fat fine.

ALi

[Citizen.Agfa]

To make things more complicated, you are only breaking the law (or alteast only open to prosecution) if you KNOW that you are uninsured. Wouldnt like to put that to the test though!

Unfortunately totally false. It has long been accepted that ignorance is no defence in law.

Regards, Nick "Rumpole" Heneghan.

[LankyTim]

Unfortunately totally false. It has long been accepted that ignorance is no defence in law.

Regards, Nick "Rumpole" Heneghan.

If you are in a position where it is reasonable to assume that you are covered on someone elses policy then you are in the clear, for example I havent seen my employers insurace docs, but I assume that I am covered to drive their lorries. If I was stopped for not having insurance my employer would be liable, not me

[alsner]

Have checked with many insurance companies today about the driving an other vehicle owned by someone else on your own insurance policy and The other vehicle does have to be insured under its own right (trader policies are a different kettle of fish) or the cover will be void...

Tim I think that if you work for an employer then it is a whole different ball game as you say you'd thought they be liable (fleet insurance). However I got into a world of trouble because I refused to drive a lorry (knackered tyre) at an old job because I was liable for the condition if pulled. I don't know the facts about insurance enough but as it is becoming more obvious there are so many laws and loopholes I would demand to see all insurance certs just for my own sanitiy.. As Nick has said ingorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, I just wish that the law wasn't so bloody complicated. ;)

Ali