Volvos and chip fat

[jybson]

Anyone have any details on running old Volvo's (740's ect) on either chip fat or bio diesel.

I currently have a petrol 740 estate but want to change to a cheaper and more 'green' version and I'm wondering about alternative fuels.

anyone doing this or have any details, stories or experience. All info greatly received.

many thanks in advance

[jor]

No experience, but.. I'd say the first consideration is access to a ready supply of the fat! If this is guaranteed then it has to be worthwhile, but not of course in a petrol engined car. Changing an engine is not an economic or practicable proposition for most, so that means changing to a diesel engined one. There are kits which allow use of straight veg oil or you can have a go at manufacturing biodiesel, which can be used in any vehicle, as long as it's expendable.
If you want to keep your car the alternative is an lpg conversion, which is considerably less green, but is certainly economically worthwhile if you do a lot of miles.
There is a fair bit of info on this site about both options and a member (mike brace) does lpg professionally. There are loads of sites with info on biodiesel and you can go to classes to learn how to make the stuff. It would suit someone with access to the oil and some knowledge of basic chemistry and plumbing!


john

[RoyMacDonald]

Anyone have any details on running old Volvo's (740's ect) on either chip fat or bio diesel.

I currently have a petrol 740 estate but want to change to a cheaper and more 'green' version and I'm wondering about alternative fuels.

anyone doing this or have any details, stories or experience. All info greatly received.

many thanks in advance

Elsbett do a one tank (Straight vegetable oil) conversion for the 940 TD. You can put Veg oil or diesel in your tank then.

[Gazmo]

:cyclops:I think Top Gear run a volvo 740 /760 diesel on veg oil some time ago and it was succesful i dont know if you will find any info on the web site but might be worth a try

[Gazmo]

found a site dieselbob.co.uk this can be used to identify which injector pump you have and if it will be ok on BIO-fuel

[monkeh]

I wont be running my car on any other heavy oil. only what comes out of the pumps.

[RoyMacDonald]

found a site dieselbob.co.uk this can be used to identify which injector pump you have and if it will be ok on BIO-fuel

He has a petrol 740!

[tfb]

In about a month or so, once I sort out a few of the faults on my 940 2.4T, I'll be trying an Elsbett 1 tank kit and pure vegtable oil. I'm not too sure about using waste oil due to need for filtering equipment and suchlike. With any luck in a few weeks I'll be filling up at Costco or Macro or for 50p a litre!

Regards

TFB

[Engineer]

Works a treat in my mates 95' Toyota Surf Turbo (new Cosco oil) with just a few gallons of diesel now and then to keep the pump and injectors happy smells lovely lol..............all totally legal. Just watch it in the winter.

[Gazmo]

there are some good informative bio fuel sites out there also check out this months car mechanics magazine for more info theyve don a feature on vegie oil it lists some sites to check out to:blk_md_wht:

[DLM48]

Works a treat in my mates 95' Toyota Surf Turbo (new Cosco oil) with just a few gallons of diesel now and then to keep the pump and injectors happy smells lovely lol..............all totally legal. Just watch it in the winter.

HO HUM totally legal and NO TAX to pay if you drive less than 20,000 miles P/A I run my Fiat Punto TD on VO generally Rapeseed Oil (AND it has a rotary pump) 100% successfully - run with 20% /50% pump diesel in the winter. The car is TOTALLY as it came out the factory NO mods and has 150K on the clock. One of my friend who is in the RAF runs his MB 250TD on Jet Fuel just sits the car under a Tornado or Nimrod for an hour or to to fill the tank :-( TD is touring Diesel BTW not Turbo no room for a turbo on RHD cars booooooooooo hoooooooo

[tfb]

I've now been running for about 2 weeks (1500 miles) on 50/50 straight veg oil and diesel in my 940 24TD. This morning it was a bit hard to start (at 5AM), it would fire on the 1st stroke and would then die within a few seconds. This happened about 5 times before it ran smoothly. This was the first morning I've had to scrape ice off the windshield though.
I'm still waiting for my Elsbett single tank kit to arrive from Germany, which should allow me to run on 100% veg oil, unless the temps get down to well below zero in which case they recomend going back to 50/50.
Other than this morning I haven't had any other problems yet and as for long-term damage only time will tell, but I'm willing to risk it.

regards
TFB

[ivor940]

Hi, As for as I know, the 6 cylinder 940 TD is a 6 cyl vervion of the old 4 cyl 1.6 VW Golf Diesel. It has no issues running on veg oil. As other posters said, watch if air temp is low enough to solidify the veg oil.

ivor940

[DLM48]

great page with lots of good links if you dig it says TDI is ok with SVO so long as you heat the SVO.....mmmmmm

http://ctbiodzl.freeshell.org/votdi.html#Quote

[Galaxie390]

Hi,

I've just got a '91 940 which will be run on veg oil when I've sorted a few other problems and found myself a 'baseline' to work from.

Previous to the Volvo I ran an '99 Escort on a veg oil mix varying from 50/50 to about 25/75 at max. The car came with a Lucas rotary pump, which have a very bad reputation on veg oil, especially when cold. Initially, got an ATG 2-tank kit from Dieselveg in the UK (Wolverhampton. Very helpful, would recommend). The idea is to start on diesel and then swap to veg when warm.

However, I ended up converting the engine to use a Bosch VE injection pump, which have a very good reputation on straight veg oil when cold. Although, when the weather gets really cold it's advisable to add a little unleaded petrol to help the pump by reducing viscosity and acting as a combustion aid.

One of the critical aspects of running on veg oil, is to make sure the engine gets hot and stays hot. A cool running engine will prevent the veg oil burning properly, and consequently ring gumming and unburnt residues are the start of merry pathway to engine destruction. Imagine, your frying pan when the oil isn't hot enough, it will adhere to the pan as sticky gooey mess.

If you are running veg oil, watch your oil level very regularly. If veg oil is leaking past your rings (as they may be worn or gummed up), it will mix with the engine oil which causes the level to rise. The real downside is the fact that as it mixes with the oil, it increases the oils viscosity to a point where it will become jelly like and hence be un-pumpable, which will starve your engine of oil.........:cry_smile:

I started collecting old fryer oil, and am assembling a filtration set-up using 10" spun polypropylene water filters. The biggest issue is removing the water from the used oil, it can be heated but I'll try a water separating fuel filter first.

Of course, new veg oil or pure plant oil (PPO) doesn't seem to have this issue. However, a lot of people who have far more experince that me will recommend running through extra filters.

Have a look at :

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/

They have a fantastic forum, with some very knowledgable people.

Bye for now,

Rich

PS: these are just my experiences to date. I don't profess to be an expert by the way!

[RoyMacDonald]

Hi,

I've just got a '91 940 which will be run on veg oil when I've sorted a few other problems and found myself a 'baseline' to work from.

If you are running veg oil, watch your oil level very regularly. If veg oil is leaking past your rings (as they may be worn or gummed up), it will mix with the engine oil which causes the level to rise. The real downside is the fact that as it mixes with the oil, it increases the oils viscosity to a point where it will become jelly like and hence be un-pumpable, which will starve your engine of oil.........:cry_smile:

Bye for now,

Rich

PS: these are just my experiences to date. I don't profess to be an expert by the way!

I've read it's advantagous to use engine oil made from veg oil if you are using Straight Vegetable Oil as fuel, as it's less of a problem when the engine oil gets diluted with fuel oil getting past the rings. Wonder if it smells like Castol R? That was so nice.

Dieselveg in Wolverhampton sell it.

http://www.dieselveg.com/plantomot_engine_oil.htm

And also a brilliant induction heating unit for injection pipes.

http://www.dieselveg.com/bioplantrix_induction_heater.htm

Roy

[DLM48]

If you are running veg oil, watch your oil level very regularly. If veg oil is leaking past your rings (as they may be worn or gummed up), it will mix with the engine oil which causes the level to rise. The real downside is the fact that as it mixes with the oil, it increases the oils viscosity to a point where it will become jelly like and hence be un-pumpable, which will starve your engine of oil.........:cry_smile:

easy to test for take a sample out of the engine and pop it in the fridge watch out for SWMBO and you can test for jello if that works fine then pop it in the freezer for a while might be a good idea to do a back to back test with two samples together new oil and out of the engine oil at the same time so you have an instant comparison

[RoyMacDonald]

easy to test for take a sample out of the engine and pop it in the fridge watch out for SWMBO and you can test for jello if that works fine then pop it in the freezer for a while might be a good idea to do a back to back test with two samples together new oil and out of the engine oil at the same time so you have an instant comparison

Expect to sleep on the settee though when your wife fries her chips in it while you're out in the garage. :)

Roy

[DLM48]

Expect to sleep on the settee though when your wife fries her chips in it while you're out in the garage. :)

Roy

BE BRAVE tell her what you are doing :-) you can bribe her with the fuel savings

[RoyMacDonald]

BE BRAVE tell her what you are doing :-) you can bribe her with the fuel savings

Tell her you've put used engine oil in her fridge!!! Thats even worse. You really must be a complete Volvo nut to think you can get away with that without going unpunished. :)

Roy

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,
Hi, As for as I know, the 6 cylinder 940 TD is a 6 cyl vervion of the old 4 cyl 1.6 VW Golf Diesel. It has no issues running on veg oil. As other posters said, watch if air temp is low enough to solidify the veg oil.

ivor940
It is the same as that used in the VW LT Van..
Whether that was a 6 cylinder version of the golf one I know not..

But it is an old engine and not common rail so should be Ok with veggie oil.
You may want to add a pre-heater to the fuel pipe before the injectors to help running.

Des. . . ;)

[DLM48]

And also a brilliant induction heating unit for injection pipes.

http://www.dieselveg.com/bioplantrix_induction_heater.htm

Roy

I think it is much more critical to heat the SVO before the injection pump - you are not going to damage an injector with cold thick SVO but for sure you can overtax the injection pump and the drive to it if you feed the injector pump with cold thick SVO. I am trying to find 12 volt pipe heating tape to heat the pipe from the tank to the engine bay. Get yourself a Fiat Punto 1.7 TD fuel filter assembly the top alloy fixture has a heating element in it (looks like another glow plug) - i think that is active during a cold start only i.e. is live when the glow plugs are activated which on the Fiat is at every start but it should be fairly easy to put a thermostat in circuit so it is on all the time the ignition is on. In fact two in series might be a good solution with one only live when the glow plugs are active and the other live at all times the ignition is on. Looking at it again it might even have a built in thermostat need to look into this pictures to follow.

[tfb]

I have been running on 50/50 SVO and diesel for about 6000 miles now. I have got an Elsbett kit to convert the car to run on 100% SVO, but I've only installed part of it so far....lack of time!
The kit consists of an coolant heated heat exchanger, an electric filter heater, new fuel filter, 6 new glowplugs, 6 new injector nozles, a few relays and lots of pipes, fittings and jubillee clips and an instruction manual.
The maual is not too bad, being a translation from German, but it has at least been translated by a person not a computer.
I have still to install the injectors and the last two glowplugs and some of the control wiring for the glowpugs.
The concept of the kit is that the electric fuel heater heats up the filter up until the coolant temp has got up to 70C and then it's turned off as the heat exchanger is now heating the fuel, the glowplugs are longer in length and stay on for a longer time (not sure how long as I haven't got the new control wired up fully yet). As for the new injectors, I believe they are a slighty different shape and are supposed to atomise the thicker fuel better.
I am not sure if it will start ok on 100% SVO as the electric filter takes a bit of time to heat up. I did try it on 100% as an experiment and it wouldn't start on a cold morning, but we'll see if the new injectors and last 2 glow pugs make a difference.
If the engine is warm it will run quite happily on 100% SVO, so if once I have finished installing the conversion kit if I still have problems in the morning I'll look at adding a small tank for diesel for the start and end of my joruneys. Luckily all my trips are over 15 miles and most are 90 mile commutes.
Doing 600-1000 miles a week, the prospect of only paying 57p a litre is most attractive and the smell from the car is great too! :)

regards

TFB

[DLM48]

well i got it wrong after reading the manual - hey i am a male :-) the thing that looks like a glow plug appears to the the thermostat and there is a black plastic insert between the filter canister and the filter mount that is the pre heater see pictures still think this is a good and cheap and easy way to pre heat your SVO still not sure if this is running all the time as the Fiat manual is not very detailed on this part of the car but will investigate there is also a BIG fuse and a relay in circuit.

[bobcat]

HO HUM totally legal and NO TAX to pay if you drive less than 20,000 miles P/A I run my Fiat Punto TD on VO generally Rapeseed Oil (AND it has a rotary pump) 100% successfully - run with 20% /50% pump diesel in the winter. The car is TOTALLY as it came out the factory NO mods and has 150K on the clock. One of my friend who is in the RAF runs his MB 250TD on Jet Fuel just sits the car under a Tornado or Nimrod for an hour or to to fill the tank :-( TD is touring Diesel BTW not Turbo no room for a turbo on RHD cars booooooooooo hoooooooo

Is that true? i thought bio fuel\diesel was subject to duty to be used legally on the road. However even with the duty i think supermarket veg oil is still cheaper than diesel.

[DLM48]

I have been running on 50/50 SVO and diesel for about 6000 miles now. I have got an Elsbett kit to convert the car to run on 100% SVO, but I've only installed part of it so far....lack of time!
The kit consists of an coolant heated heat exchanger, an electric filter heater, new fuel filter, 6 new glowplugs, 6 new injector nozles, a few relays and lots of pipes, fittings and jubillee clips and an instruction manual.
The maual is not too bad, being a translation from German, but it has at least been translated by a person not a computer.
I have still to install the injectors and the last two glowplugs and some of the control wiring for the glowpugs.
The concept of the kit is that the electric fuel heater heats up the filter up until the coolant temp has got up to 70C and then it's turned off as the heat exchanger is now heating the fuel, the glowplugs are longer in length and stay on for a longer time (not sure how long as I haven't got the new control wired up fully yet). As for the new injectors, I believe they are a slighty different shape and are supposed to atomise the thicker fuel better.
I am not sure if it will start ok on 100% SVO as the electric filter takes a bit of time to heat up. I did try it on 100% as an experiment and it wouldn't start on a cold morning, but we'll see if the new injectors and last 2 glow pugs make a difference.
If the engine is warm it will run quite happily on 100% SVO, so if once I have finished installing the conversion kit if I still have problems in the morning I'll look at adding a small tank for diesel for the start and end of my joruneys. Luckily all my trips are over 15 miles and most are 90 mile commutes.
Doing 600-1000 miles a week, the prospect of only paying 57p a litre is most attractive and the smell from the car is great too! :)

regards

TFB

good kits but expensive you forgot to say which car you have how old and mileage on the engine etc. as well as where you are located and what was the cost of your kit? A wee touch of petrol (up to !0%) in your SVO should get over your cold start problem or even run on a Diesel/SVO mix in the winter. If you look at my post on the Fiat filter this is internal not just an external blanket thing so will be much better/quicker at heating the SVO. Seems strange that none of the SVO people have found this Fiat fuel pre heater (SHHUUUUSH keep it quiet Volvo owners only). I would have thought that longer glow plugs were easy to source i cant believe these are Elsbett parts but std parts sourced from another vehicle the coolant pre heater is for sure available from many sources and actually the injection pump once warm is a very good heater for the SVO so i think the coolant pre heater is a fix for a non existent problem probably a good belt and braces thing though. That said Cold Starting is the BIG ISSUE as far as i can see.

[DLM48]

Is that true? i thought bio fuel\diesel was subject to duty to be used legally on the road. However even with the duty i think supermarket veg oil is still cheaper than diesel.

of course it is true i am NOT a MD ;-) up to 2,500 liters = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TAX - on the Fiat that equates to 20/25,000 miles and if you can get WVO for free - or if bought clean and water free at 20ppl that is seriously cheap - new clean Rapeseed at 50/60ppl

[bobcat]

of course it is true i am NOT a MD ;-) up to 2,500 liters = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TAX

Any more info on this? website etc?

Its funny, i was talking to a private taxi driver on tuesday and he mentioned something along the same lines. I personally didnt believe him as i couldnt see the govement missing out on all that duty.

Upto 2500 litres, does it only apply to a certain type of bio diesel?

edit: just found this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/6288920.stm

[DLM48]

Any more info on this? website etc?

Its funny, i was talking to a private taxi driver on tuesday and he mentioned something along the same lines. I personally didnt believe him as i couldnt see the govement missing out on all that duty.

Upto 2500 litres, does it only apply to a certain type of bio diesel?

look on the C&E site seems it was costing a fortune to handle all the small people who were sending in pennies and pounds of tax HE HE yes the wee people won this one.

[bobcat]

look on the C&E site seems it was costing a fortune to handle all the small people who were sending in pennies and pounds of tax HE HE yes the wee people won this one.

thanks, just posted up a link above to the story on the bbc.

might have to find myself a nice 850 tdi now.

[DLM48]

might have to find myself a nice 850 tdi now.

he he and chip it BOTH ways :-) fat and lectronically

[bobcat]

he he and chip it BOTH ways :-) fat and lectronically

would be rude not to, I have a spare 850r interior and exterior.

I see a new project coming on, 850r TDI!!

[tfb]

good kits but expensive you forgot to say which car you have how old and mileage on the engine etc. as well as where you are located and what was the cost of your kit? A wee touch of petrol (up to !0%) in your SVO should get over your cold start problem or even run on a Diesel/SVO mix in the winter. If you look at my post on the Fiat filter this is internal not just an external blanket thing so will be much better/quicker at heating the SVO. Seems strange that none of the SVO people have found this Fiat fuel pre heater (SHHUUUUSH keep it quiet Volvo owners only). I would have thought that longer glow plugs were easy to source i cant believe these are Elsbett parts but std parts sourced from another vehicle the coolant pre heater is for sure available from many sources and actually the injection pump once warm is a very good heater for the SVO so i think the coolant pre heater is a fix for a non existent problem probably a good belt and braces thing though. That said Cold Starting is the BIG ISSUE as far as i can see.

Car is a 940 TD, milage is claimed to be 129,000 ( no idea if thats real or not)
The Elspbett kit was about £700. I'm not sure how much the bits would be if bought seperatley. The only bits that are custom made are the heat exchanger and the electric heater (not sure about the injectors). All the rest is commercial-of-the-shelf, i.e glow plugs are Bosch.

I did try 90% SVO and 10% petrol one weekend as an experiment, and it didn't like it at all, simply wouldn't start and siphoning it out was horrible!.

Yes, I agree the cold starting is the major issue so far for me and I have been toying with the idea of putting a timer on the electric fuel heater so that it comes on before I get up in the mornings. I have quite a few different ideas I'd like to try out, depending upon how things work out, but I think I'll end up using a two tank setup, which will negate any cold starting issues.

Regards
TFB

[bobcat]

from HM Revenue & customs:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

[RoyMacDonald]

I think it is much more critical to heat the SVO before the injection pump - you are not going to damage an injector with cold thick SVO but for sure you can overtax the injection pump and the drive to it if you feed the injector pump with cold thick SVO. I am trying to find 12 volt pipe heating tape to heat the pipe from the tank to the engine bay. Get yourself a Fiat Punto 1.7 TD fuel filter assembly the top alloy fixture has a heating element in it (looks like another glow plug) - i think that is active during a cold start only i.e. is live when the glow plugs are activated which on the Fiat is at every start but it should be fairly easy to put a thermostat in circuit so it is on all the time the ignition is on. In fact two in series might be a good solution with one only live when the glow plugs are active and the other live at all times the ignition is on. Looking at it again it might even have a built in thermostat need to look into this pictures to follow.

It does say it's not to be used instead of the usual methods of preheating the oil but as well as. It is the only product I've seen that is capable of getting the oil to a temperature where the veg oil properties are the same as diesel. Which is why I think it is so good.

The problem with cold veg oil is that is won't atomize properly and will cause knacker laquer to form in the engine, thus shortening the life of the engine.

All the best.
Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

good kits but expensive you forgot to say which car you have how old and mileage on the engine etc. as well as where you are located and what was the cost of your kit? A wee touch of petrol (up to !0%) in your SVO should get over your cold start problem or even run on a Diesel/SVO mix in the winter. If you look at my post on the Fiat filter this is internal not just an external blanket thing so will be much better/quicker at heating the SVO. Seems strange that none of the SVO people have found this Fiat fuel pre heater (SHHUUUUSH keep it quiet Volvo owners only). I would have thought that longer glow plugs were easy to source i cant believe these are Elsbett parts but std parts sourced from another vehicle the coolant pre heater is for sure available from many sources and actually the injection pump once warm is a very good heater for the SVO so i think the coolant pre heater is a fix for a non existent problem probably a good belt and braces thing though. That said Cold Starting is the BIG ISSUE as far as i can see.

That's a 6 cylinder 940 TD Audi/VW lump if ever I saw one. Elsbett do a 1 tank system for it.

I read a review by someone who went to Esbett in Germany (They do fitting as well) and he said they analized his engine combustion characteristics and made the injectors while he was there. Sometimes they can modify your own injectors if they are suitable but if they're not happy with the combustion characteristics they make completly new ones.

They are more expensive but I'm inclined to think you get what you pay for and they are the best. Certainly they have the most experience and some very high milage conversions to their credit.

Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

Car is a 940 TD, milage is claimed to be 129,000 ( no idea if thats real or not)
The Elspbett kit was about £700. I'm not sure how much the bits would be if bought seperatley. The only bits that are custom made are the heat exchanger and the electric heater (not sure about the injectors). All the rest is commercial-of-the-shelf, i.e glow plugs are Bosch.

I did try 90% SVO and 10% petrol one weekend as an experiment, and it didn't like it at all, simply wouldn't start and siphoning it out was horrible!.

Yes, I agree the cold starting is the major issue so far for me and I have been toying with the idea of putting a timer on the electric fuel heater so that it comes on before I get up in the mornings. I have quite a few different ideas I'd like to try out, depending upon how things work out, but I think I'll end up using a two tank setup, which will negate any cold starting issues.

Regards
TFB

Why not use the induction injector heating system I mentioned in an earlier post? The veg oil will have the same characteristics as diesel then, so if it dosn't start it won't be down to the fuel.

Not sure why your trying to use a veg oil/petrol mix. The recommendation in extreme weather conditions is to use a veg oil/diesel mix. Any amount of petrol in a diesel engine is not a good idea. It has all sorts of addtives in it to compensate for the lack lead.

Roy

[DLM48]

Any amount of petrol in a diesel engine is not a good idea. It has all sorts of addtives in it to compensate for the lack lead.

Roy

well that is not true as it is very common to use up to 10% petrol in diesel in the colder EU counties in the winter and they have been doing this for yonks

[RoyMacDonald]

well that is not true as it is very common to use up to 10% petrol in diesel in the colder EU counties in the winter and they have been doing this for yonks

But why do it unless you have to? Modern diesel will be just as effective and is what your engine is designed to use.

Roy

[DLM48]

That's a 6 cylinder 940 TD Audi/VW lump if ever I saw one. Elsbett do a 1 tank system for it.

I read a review by someone who went to Esbett in Germany (They do fitting as well) and he said they analized his engine combustion characteristics and made the injectors while he was there. Sometimes they can modify your own injectors if they are suitable but if they're not happy with the combustion characteristics they make completly new ones.

They are more expensive but I'm inclined to think you get what you pay for and they are the best. Certainly they have the most experience and some very high milage conversions to their credit.

Roy

well i did suspect it was the 2.4 TD engine but i like to hear that from the horses mouth

i have to say there are theories practical experiences and facts here and it is difficult to sort out one from the other. Elsewhere you can read about increasing injector pressure AND lowering injector pressure as well as modifying spray patterns - all supposed to be better for running your car on SVO. I know Esbett do their own injector nozzles and i think they up the pressure too - that is just their way of doing things and while they 'benefit' from the German Engineering label there are many many ways to skin this particular cat. It would appear that the most successful people have been doing this for eons with their own home made kits. I for instance have a car that is listed as being totally unsuitable (discovered after i had bought it) - but then it was a cheap experiment - and it runs like a sewing machine quite happily on various mixtures of SVO. It can sit for days at a time and has been sitting unused for about three/four weeks now as it is not taxed ATM and it started easy peasy today when i was photographing the heated fuel filter. Soon to be doing my own experiments on a 2.4 TD so i am sure i will post lots of pictures and a write up as i both convert it to SVO/WVO and as i modify it to extract a few(lots) more HP from the engine. Re: the injector pipe heating kit that you posted there are at least another two kits that just use DC heating wire wound round these pipes. Doing it this way you don't have the electronic AC modulator/converter that only seems to be able to handle three cylinders four at a push so it is simpler and a cheaper way. Also i cant remember what the temperature is that you need to get SVO up to so that it has the same viscosity as diesel but i seriously doubt if any of these 'heat the injector pipe systems' can do that.

[DLM48]

But why do it unless you have to? Modern diesel will be just as effective and is what your engine is designed to use.Roy

stops (or reduces) waxing and lets you keep on driving

[RoyMacDonald]

well i did suspect it was the 2.4 TD engine but i like to hear that from the horses mouth

i have to say there are theories practical experiences and facts here and it is difficult to sort out one from the other. Elsewhere you can read about increasing injector pressure AND lowering injector pressure as well as modifying spray patterns - all supposed to be better for running your car on SVO. I know Esbett do their own injector nozzles and i think they up the pressure too - that is just their way of doing things and while they 'benefit' from the German Engineering label there are many many ways to skin this particular cat. It would appear that the most successful people have been doing this for eons with their own home made kits. I for instance have a car that is listed as being totally unsuitable (discovered after i had bought it) - but then it was a cheap experiment - and it runs like a sewing machine quite happily on various mixtures of SVO. It can sit for days at a time and has been sitting unused for about three/four weeks now as it is not taxed ATM and it started easy peasy today when i was photographing the heated fuel filter. Soon to be doing my own experiments on a 2.4 TD so i am sure i will post lots of pictures and a write up as i both convert it to SVO/WVO and as i modify it to extract a few(lots) more HP from the engine. Re: the injector pipe heating kit that you posted there are at least another two kits that just use DC heating wire wound round these pipes. Doing it this way you don't have the electronic AC modulator/converter that only seems to be able to handle three cylinders four at a push so it is simpler and a cheaper way. Also i cant remember what the temperature is that you need to get SVO up to so that it has the same viscosity as diesel but i seriously doubt if any of these 'heat the injector pipe systems' can do that.

I have to say I really admire someone who does their own research and makes their own convesion kit.

The veg oil and diesel characteristic become the same at when the temperature reaches 120 C degrees if I remember correctly. The injector heating kit can do up to 6 cylinders. For engines with more than 6 you need to use more that one kit. It heats the oil to 120 C to 140 C.

They say not to heat the oil above 150 C.

Here's their installation manual in case you find it of use.

Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

stops (or reduces) waxing and lets you keep on driving

So wil mixing with diesel.

Roy

[DLM48]

I have to say I really admire someone who does their own research and makes their own convesion kit.

The veg oil and diesel characteristic become the same at when the temperature reaches 120 C degrees if I remember correctly. The injector heating kit can do up to 6 cylinders. For engines with more than 6 you need to use more that one kit. It heats the oil to 120 C to 140 C.

They say not to heat the oil above 150 C.

Here's their installation manual in case you find it of use.

Roy

i had read the manual thanks

and it says on page two - "for 6 Cyl engines the use of two separate systems is recommended" - it also says dependent on circumstances <SIK> it can take upto 3 minutes to get the temp up to 120/140 deg C - it does look good (interesting) but looks a bit complex they even say the electronic module needs to be kept cool yet they dont supply a fan cooled unit - 12V mini muffin fans are like for nothing - it all looks a little Heath Robinson for a commercial product with tie wraps and bits of silicon tubing and a lash up temperature probe

[DLM48]

So wil mixing with diesel.

Roy

actually i was saying that for years HGV drivers and others like the emergency services had laced their diesel with up to 10% petrol in winter so that they could operate their vehicles in very very cold weather when diesel would wax up and bring them to a grinding stop.

[RoyMacDonald]

i had read the manual thanks

and it says on page two - "for 6 Cyl engines the use of two separate systems is recommended" - it also says dependent on circumstances <SIK> it can take upto 3 minutes to get the temp up to 120/140 deg C - it does look good (interesting) but looks a bit complex they even say the electronic module needs to be kept cool yet they dont supply a fan cooled unit - 12V mini muffin fans are like for nothing - it all looks a little Heath Robinson for a commercial product with tie wraps and bits of silicon tubing and a lash up temperature probe

Sorry, I read the maual at about 3 am, problably not a good idea in retrospect. 3000 cc and 6 cylinder and above use 2 kits. Still think it's brilliant. Maybe you could improve on it though?

I couldn't find the bit that said it needed to be kept cool, just that it needed adequate airflow and not to mount it within 500mm of a heat source like the exhaust. Says it has an internal cutout if it gets too hot.

It does say the current version was developed for experimental use, so maybe that's why it's not as perfect as you think it should be?

Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

actually i was saying that for years HGV drivers and others like the emergency services had laced their diesel with up to 10% petrol in winter so that they could operate their vehicles in very very cold weather when diesel would wax up and bring them to a grinding stop.

Well I've been looking to see if it's good practice and I havn't found it recommnded yet. This site has info on starting at below -20C but they don't advocate the use of petrol. They say use kerosene or an additive if your not using winter diesel.

http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/cold_wx.htm

Another web site says

MYTH #5
You should occasionally mix a gallon of gasoline with a tankful of diesel fuel to clean the fuel injectors and remove carbon from the cylinders.

FACT
Don’t do it! Gasoline, even in low concentrations, destroys the lubricity of diesel fuel and can quickly destroy the diesel’s expensive fuel injection pump. Gas in diesel fuel also increases the combustion temperature and can actually damage the expensive fuel injection nozzles. And lastly, today’s diesel fuel does not gum up fuel injectors, or build carbon deposit in the cylinders as was sometimes the case many years ago.
Don’t ever mix gasoline, or alcohol, with diesel fuel.

http://www.bankspower.com/tech_TD-fact-Fiction.cfm

http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/vehiclemaintenanceguide/a/dieselcoldweath.htm

Ford say don't do it...

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384535918&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

I did read a short blog that said it used to be done about 20 years ago, but that's all I could find other than stuff saying don't do it.

Roy



Roy

[tfb]

The Volvo owners handbook recommends a mix of upto 10% petrol during cold weather. Though I can't recall if it specifies what constitutes weather cold enough to use it.

It does seems that people who use SVO often have their preferred mix of SVO, diesel, petrol, meths, acetone and various other things.

As the owners manual did say that that petrol could be mixed with diesel, I was fairly happy to try it with vegetable oil to thin it out a bit. If it had worked it would have reduced my overall fuels costs from about 80p a litre using 50/50 to around 60p a litre.

I am looking forward to fitting the Elsbett injectors to see if I can run on 100% SVO as Elsbett claim.

regards

TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

The Volvo owners handbook recommends a mix of upto 10% petrol during cold weather. Though I can't recall if it specifies what constitutes weather cold enough to use it.

It does seems that people who use SVO often have their preferred mix of SVO, diesel, petrol, meths, acetone and various other things.

As the owners manual did say that that petrol could be mixed with diesel, I was fairly happy to try it with vegetable oil to thin it out a bit. If it had worked it would have reduced my overall fuels costs from about 80p a litre using 50/50 to around 60p a litre.

I am looking forward to fitting the Elsbett injectors to see if I can run on 100% SVO as Elsbett claim.

regards

TFB

Is that the 940 handbook? I can't find anything in my 2003 XC90 D5 handbook.

I did read that VW recomended the use a small quantity of petrol in very cold weather on the original Golf diesel, which of course is what the 940 is, plus an extra couple of cylinders, for a while back in the eighties, but that now they recommend a special additive (Standyne) if winter diesel starts to thicken in extreme cold. (-30 C)

Roy

[DLM48]

i should add that modern HGV's have 'a blue tank ' (Was driving a brand new Volvo one today was nice but a bit gutless) 'i think' - i am not 100% sure that this is winter antifreeze how the vehicle knows when and how to mix it i know not modern lectronic diesels with CAN bus and similar things are just too new fangled for me - give me an inline mechanical pump any day he he. I have a few friends who should know one is a CAN Bus expert Terex dump trucks so i will make a few enquires and report back ASAP.

PILLOCK is me...............AD BLUE is an Urea Solution - Urea Solutions a range of urea solutions to treat exhaust and flue gasses to comply with environmental legislation.

32.5% Urea Solution is required by Euro 4 & 5 trucks fitted with SCR (Selective Catalyst Reaction) equipment. The 32.5% Urea Solution is the additive pumped into the exhaust stream via the SCR dosing unit to react with the NOx in the catalyst. This has the effect of reducing the NOx levels coming out of the exhaust stream and into the atmosphere. NOx have been associated with many health problems, and cause most acute problems in towns and city's where their concentration is highest.

[RoyMacDonald]

i should add that modern HGV's have 'a blue tank ' (Was driving a brand new Volvo one today was nice but a bit gutless) 'i think' - i am not 100% sure that this is winter antifreeze how the vehicle knows when and how to mix it i know not modern lectronic diesels with CAN bus and similar things are just too new fangled for me - give me an inline mechanical pump any day he he. I have a few friends who should know one is a CAN Bus expert Terex dump trucks so i will make a few enquires and report back ASAP.

PILLOCK is me...............AD BLUE is an Urea Solution - Urea Solutions a range of urea solutions to treat exhaust and flue gasses to comply with environmental legislation.

32.5% Urea Solution is required by Euro 4 & 5 trucks fitted with SCR (Selective Catalyst Reaction) equipment. The 32.5% Urea Solution is the additive pumped into the exhaust stream via the SCR dosing unit to react with the NOx in the catalyst. This has the effect of reducing the NOx levels coming out of the exhaust stream and into the atmosphere. NOx have been associated with many health problems, and cause most acute problems in towns and city's where their concentration is highest.

I might be wrong but I think this is the emmission technology that Ken Livinston is planning to insist on for commercial vehicles entering London. Either a complete ban or £200 a day congestion charge without it.

Roy

[tfb]

Is that the 940 handbook? I can't find anything in my 2003 XC90 D5 handbook.



Roy

Yep, it's in the 940 handbook....I would imagine that your XC90 engine is a little bit more advanced than mine ;) and probably wouldn't tolerate some of the things I have tipped in my tank and while I would be very upset if I killed the car, the financial loss wouldn't be too great.
Hmm..it's not just the formation of wax crystals thats the problem when SVO is cold but also it is so much thicker and would the additive cure that too I wonder? Hopefuly this is where the Elsbett injectors will help out. I'm not 100% convinced that the Elsbett one tank kit will work outside of summer, but I'll be happy if it does. With any luck I should finish fitting it over the next couple of weeks


rats...can't find the handbook to check the exact wording.

regards

TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

Yep, it's in the 940 handbook....I would imagine that your XC90 engine is a little bit more advanced than mine ;) and probably wouldn't tolerate some of the things I have tipped in my tank and while I would be very upset if I killed the car, the financial loss wouldn't be too great.
Hmm..it's not just the formation of wax crystals thats the problem when SVO is cold but also it is so much thicker and would the additive cure that too I wonder? Hopefuly this is where the Elsbett injectors will help out. I'm not 100% convinced that the Elsbett one tank kit will work outside of summer, but I'll be happy if it does. With any luck I should finish fitting it over the next couple of weeks


rats...can't find the handbook to check the exact wording.

regards

TFB

Elsbett say...."Add normal Winterdiesel to the vegetable oil in the tank in sub-zero temperatures." I don't think you'd need any extra additive in the UK unless it got seriously cold.

With the saving on the tax now you could afford to shorten the life of even new D5 diesel engine. The savings would pay for a new engine in very short space of time.

Roy

[tfb]

If you use your limit of 2500 litres of SVO a year, the the saving will be cira £1200, using WVO it would be circa £2250. But you are also driving around feeling all warm and happy knowing that you are not giving the government any money for your fuel and that is priceless! :)

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

Car is a 940 TD, milage is claimed to be 129,000 ( no idea if thats real or not)
The Elspbett kit was about £700. I'm not sure how much the bits would be if bought seperatley. The only bits that are custom made are the heat exchanger and the electric heater (not sure about the injectors). All the rest is commercial-of-the-shelf, i.e glow plugs are Bosch.

I did try 90% SVO and 10% petrol one weekend as an experiment, and it didn't like it at all, simply wouldn't start and siphoning it out was horrible!.

Yes, I agree the cold starting is the major issue so far for me and I have been toying with the idea of putting a timer on the electric fuel heater so that it comes on before I get up in the mornings. I have quite a few different ideas I'd like to try out, depending upon how things work out, but I think I'll end up using a two tank setup, which will negate any cold starting issues.

Regards
TFB

Do you have the Bosch part numbers of the glow plugs that Elsbett supplied? Also how are things going now? Is all of the kit installed now? If so how about updating the thread/ I just got my 945 SE TD now and raring to go - so going to build up my parts bin and probably install in the spring. For the winter i will just run a mixture of D/VO 60/40 and if the weather gets really cold a quick trip to the nearest diesel pump will quickly have that at an 80/20 mix.


Also does anyone have the Volvo part number for the Volvo Diesel Manual?

thanks in anticipation

[RoyMacDonald]

Do you have the Bosch part numbers of the glow plugs that Elsbett supplied? Also how are things going now? Is all of the kit installed now? If so how about updating the thread/ I just got my 945 SE TD now and raring to go - so going to build up my parts bin and probably install in the spring. For the winter i will just run a mixture of D/VO 60/40 and if the weather gets really cold a quick trip to the nearest diesel pump will quickly have that at an 80/20 mix.


Also does anyone have the Volvo part number for the Volvo Diesel Manual?

thanks in anticipation

Elsbett use a computer progam to analyze the original injector spray pattern and if they think it needs to be modified to be optimized for SOV they use modified injectors. If none are available off the shelf they modify existing ones or make their own. They do make complete engines specifically for SOV so they have a lot of expertise when it comes to the engineering.

Roy

[tfb]

Funny you should mention this, but today I finally got a free afternoon to whip out the injectors (well grunt and groan and swear at them) and get them over to a diesel specialist to have the new nozzles fitted and the opening pressures set. £40 later I have a new set of injectors to fit back in!.
While I have all the injectors out I'll replace 5 & 6 glowplugs, the absence of the injectors should make access a bit better, but I'll tell the kids to block their ears just in case ;).

If the weather is OK tomorrow I should get that done in the afternoon and then the installation of the kit will be complete. I would guess that you could do the complete job in about day or 2 days if you had a nice warm garage and no kids shouting "daaaad" every 5 minutes.

Most of the components of the kit seem to be of a good quality, the wires are all double insulated and the hoses are decent. The only things I wasn't impressed with were the T pieces for T-ing into the coolant pipes, they were made of ABS and were too big (18mm diameter) to fit into the pipes leading to/from the heater matrix, so I made some reducing T-pieces from copper plumbing pipe. The crimp spade connectors were a bit cheap too and ended up using my own. Some heatshrink sleeving would have been a good addition to the kit, luckily I have plenty of it. I'll make sure I note the part number of the glow plugs before I fit them and post the details.

On the whole I have been quite impressed with the kit. It was all nicely packed into little bags with part lists for each bag and the only extras I needed was the heatshrink sleeve, a few self-tapping screws and the home made T-pieces. The wiring diagram and manual were easy to follow as long as you have the general idea of what the kit is trying to achieve.

Regards

TFB

[DLM48]

Funny you should mention this, but today I finally got a free afternoon to whip out the injectors (well grunt and groan and swear at them) and get them over to a diesel specialist to have the new nozzles fitted and the opening pressures set. £40 later I have a new set of injectors to fit back in!.
While I have all the injectors out I'll replace 5 & 6 glowplugs, the absence of the injectors should make access a bit better, but I'll tell the kids to block their ears just in case ;).

If the weather is OK tomorrow I should get that done in the afternoon and then the installation of the kit will be complete. I would guess that you could do the complete job in about day or 2 days if you had a nice warm garage and no kids shouting "daaaad" every 5 minutes.

Most of the components of the kit seem to be of a good quality, the wires are all double insulated and the hoses are decent. The only things I wasn't impressed with were the T pieces for T-ing into the coolant pipes, they were made of ABS and were too big (18mm diameter) to fit into the pipes leading to/from the heater matrix, so I made some reducing T-pieces from copper plumbing pipe. The crimp spade connectors were a bit cheap too and ended up using my own. Some heatshrink sleeving would have been a good addition to the kit, luckily I have plenty of it. I'll make sure I note the part number of the glow plugs before I fit them and post the details.

On the whole I have been quite impressed with the kit. It was all nicely packed into little bags with part lists for each bag and the only extras I needed was the heatshrink sleeve, a few self-tapping screws and the home made T-pieces. The wiring diagram and manual were easy to follow as long as you have the general idea of what the kit is trying to achieve.

Regards

TFB

sounds great i do hope you are going to pass all that info back to Elsbett so they can sort out these issues

[Paddler Ed]

Possibly one of the reasons why the 900's manual says to add petrol, but the D5 doesn't is that the fuel technology has improved.

In the early '80s my parents can remember regularlarily hearing of truck fires on the Cumbrian roads... the drivers would light a fire under the diesel tank to stop the fuel getting frozen. Unforunately it did catch fire and cause chaos

[tfb]

The part Nos. for the replacement Bosch glowplugs supplied in the kit is 0 250 201041.

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

The part Nos. for the replacement Bosch glowplugs supplied in the kit is 0 250 201041.

Regards
TFB

Does the Elsbett kit do anything to the time the glow plugs are activated for - obviously increase that time?

thanks

[tfb]

yep, there is a new relay too. It's a hella one and I did look up whcih car it is used on, but have forgotten!. The relay keeps the glow-plugs on until the coolant temp reaches 70degrees, but I guess there must be a time out too, but I haven't found out what that is yet.
I've fitted the new injectors, btu I've got fuel leaking out of the bodies on 3 of them, 1 leaking quite a bit. So it'll be back to the Diesel place tommorrow with them. The car does run with them in, but idle is low and power is very low.
I also managed to knacker one of the injector pipes when trying to slacken the flange nut on the pump end. I didn't notice until too late that the stud in the pump was turning too and the pipe was twisting, luckily I had a spare pipe on hand.
Changing glow plugs 5&6 is a lot easier with the injectors out. No5 is a doddle, but 6 was still a bit of a pain.

Regards
TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

Possibly one of the reasons why the 900's manual says to add petrol, but the D5 doesn't is that the fuel technology has improved.

In the early '80s my parents can remember regularlarily hearing of truck fires on the Cumbrian roads... the drivers would light a fire under the diesel tank to stop the fuel getting frozen. Unforunately it did catch fire and cause chaos

I read that petrol can knacker the cat. Even putting diesel in a can that is empty but has previously had petrol in it can totally wreck the cat it is that sensitive to the additives in it. I knew petrol could damage the injectors and fuel pump, piston rings and bores but I never thought about the cat.

Roy

[DLM48]

some interesting web sites/links

http://www.frybrid.com/

http://www.vow2.co.uk/

http://www.sunshinefuel.co.uk/

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/saverbee

enjoy

regards

[tfb]

I'd also add that http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php is a very good source of infomation, help and ideas

Regards

TFB

[tfb]

Well, the saga of the injectors continues....

After getting the injectors back, with the Elsbett nozzles fitted, from the Diesel Service Centre in Peterborough and fitting them, together with the new heat shield washers, I noticed that fuel was weeping out of the bodies of 5 of them and the idle was a couple of hundred rpm lower (about 500rmp). I was going to take them back to the garage, but after a quick phone call they suggesting just taking them out and putting them in a vice to nip them up a bit .

So out came the injectors again. Putting them upside down in a vice and using the 27mm injector socket with a long bar, I could hardly get any movement on them, just a few degrees and it had the feel of threads about to strip if I went any further. So the injectors went back in and again low rpm and fuel leaking out of 4 of them this time. I took the car for a quick test run around the block and power was incredibly low, the car needed to rev to 3000rpm before lifting the clutch otherwise it would stall.

I thought OK, perhaps another little bit of torque on the 4 leaky ones. So out they came again. This time I thought I 'd just check to make sure I had put the heat washers in the right way round. Lifting the washer out I couldn't believe how distorted it was!, checking the others I found that some of them were beginning to split!. Have a look at the attached picture for an example. Digging around in the bottom of my toolbox located the old washers and comparing the two, even allowing for the distortion, they were nothing alike!. The only thing in common was the outside diameter, everything else was different.

Having found that I had been given the wrong washers I decided to open up one of the injectors and to see what had been done inside. Again I was amazed, the nozzles were entirely caked in carbon deposits and on the 1st one I pulled apart the centre pin wouldn't even move. Have a look at picture no. 2 for as an example (one of the 14yr old Bosch nozzles is in the background). Keep in mind I had only done about 5 miles with these nozzles fitted and idled for perhaps 30minutes.

So, all the injectors came out again and I decided to try and clean them up. I soaked them all overnight in the contents of a bottle of diesel fuel treatment (it's supposed to clean injectors, right? ;) ) and then stole the kid's toothbrushes to give them a scrub over with (don't worry I had some new toothbrushes for the kids on hand). I scraped some of the carbon off the nozzles but most of it I couldn't shift and I didn't want to use anything too abrasive of them.

I know that work like this should be done under virtually clean room conditions, but by this stage I knew that there wasn't much I could do to make things worse. I have reassembled 4 of the injectors with Elsbett nozzles and 2 with the original Bosch nozzles, as the pins wouldn't move on two of the Elsbett ones. Injectors are now back in the car....but battery is flat. I had left the car unlocked and one of the doors slightly open overnight. The draw of the interior bulbs must have been enough to flatten the battery overnight.

Once the battery is charged back up I'll see if and how it runs. But I think the injectors are probably knackered now.

The options are:

A complete new set of injectors (either from a scrappy or brand new from a dealer) and forget about single tanking the car, just go for a twin tank system
Try sending this set to a decent diesel specialist (I'll choose a Bosch approved one time)and see what they can do with them.
See if I can get another set of nozzles from Elsbett or even better – get them to supply me with complete injectors.

I think I'll try and get a 2nd hand set of injectors 1st, just to give me a running a car and to stop me me leaving pools of diesel/SVO on the driveway, which has not made me the most popular member of the household at the moment.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

A diesel service centre did this for you???

Have you mentioned this to them?? I'd be suing their backsides!!! :buttkick:

Des. . . ;)

[tfb]

yep, it was a company called Diesel Service Centre. Knowing what my temper can be like at times, I've decided not to go round there and have a chat with them about it.

Regards
TFB

[tfb]

Managed to get enough charge in the battery to start it and take it for a test run.
With 4 Elsbett nozzles and 2 Bosch ones it's running better but still not right, idle is a bit low and lumpy.
One of the Bosch nozzled injectors is still weeping fuel and 2 of the Elsbett nozzled one are weeping.
I think the next stage will be to swap back to all Bosch nozzles and see how it runs. I can still nip the bodies up a bit tighter if need be as well.

Regards
TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

I'm wondering what state the inside of your engine is in from running with the the SOV/Diesel mix with an unmodified engine for a considerable distance. I wonder if that's contibuting to the dirtiness of the injectors. Also Elsbett don't recomend using SOV for short journeys so I would guess the engine didn't get hot enough burn off any carbon.

I think that getting a complete set of properly fitted injectors would be the best point to start working from.

Roy

[tfb]

Most of my journeys are 90 mile (each way) trips to work, the rest of the journeys are 15 mile minimum. The old Bosch nozzles were nice and clean, a little bit of blackening around the nose but that was it.

I am fairly sure that it was the dodgy washers that allowed the combustion gasses and materials blow back up between the outer body of the injector and the nozzle body, thus acounting for the amount of deposits on the Elsbett nozzle bodies.

The two inectors with Bosch nozzles stayed clean after a 5min warm up and then 10 mile drive (my around the block trip). That was with all the original washers in.

Yep, I agree a decent set of injectors should be by 1st thing. I will try refitting all the Bosch nozzles tomorrow and see how it goes and also ring up a few places and get some prices for an exchange set of injectors...expecting about £200-250 for a set :(

Still, if you are going to bugger around with your car and try and make it run on things it was never meant to then you have to be prepared for it to go wrong!

Regards
TFB

[tfb]

Right, all the Bosch nozzles are back in the injectors and the injectors are fitted. Idle RPM is back up to about 700 (still a bit lower than before) and it's a lot less lumpy.

I've still got fuel weeping out of one body, but nothing compared to what it was before. The heatshield washer on No. 6 injector doesn't seem to be sealing fully though. Which is not suprising when you consider how many times the injectors have been in and out over the last few days.

I've ordered a set of exchange injectors from United Diesel for £175, including (hopefuly correct) washers and return postage. With any luck they should be here on Wednesday and I can get it back to running as it was!

From then on I'll fit it out as a twin tank system. I know the engine will run on 100% SVO when warm and all this faffing around with the injectors has been a bit of a waste of time and money.

Still, I have already saved about £1000 by running a Volvo on 50/50 instead of the BMW on petrol! :)

Regards

TFB
Regards
TFB

[jor]

I think gsf do them on an exchange basis for about £30 each, but can't remember if that includes vat. You will get a full set of nozzles from germany for £60 plus post, but can't swear to this as something may have got lost in translation.

john

[tfb]

I got quotes from about £25 to £40 each, quotes were for a set not each so figures are rough. United Diesel were the only ones who had them in stock and were around the middle of the price range and they sounded nice and helpful on the 'phone.
Hopefuly I should have them on Wendesday and I'll have some time to fit them.

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

just picked up this thread again after not being on the site for a few days 1200 new posts OUCH!!!

it sounds like you have been in the wars with your injectors - seems like if it is not broke dont try and fix it seems about right. Having been thinking about the big picture and not worrying too much about your present difficulties i have come to the conclusion that a twin tank solution is 'perhaps' the only way to run on 100% SVO.

MY thinking!!!

I dont care how much you heat SVO heat the SVO in the tank along the fuel pipes and in the filter BUT if you have a cold engine the minute that SVO gets into the IP it will loose lots of heat and its viscosity will increase proportionally - i would suggest quite a bit - so if you are not going to use an engine preheater there is no way i can see that you can get the IP up to temperature 'quickly' yes you can heat the pipes from the IP to the injectors but you are still going to have a cold IP. Now this is NOT critical as the Volvo/VW IP will still work with cold SVO so that any heating you do with the SVO will have a positive benefit BUT i think that IF you believe that HOT SVO with a similar viscosity is 'the way to go' then all your preheating is going to be negated to a large extent with a cold IP.

I think that we need to do a lot more experimenting well i do to understand what the issues are here probably some temperature probes to get some real time visibility of what is going on. Remember in theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

comments?

regards

[tfb]

I am coming to same conclusion about twin-tanking.

From my experiments so far the major problem I have had with 100% SVO is cold starting. 50/50 is fine, the car has started fine over these last few coldish days even with the dodgy injectors. You are trying to pull/push a very thick viscous fluid through the pump and the injectors. This will put extra strain on the pump, as to whether the pump is capable of taking that extra strain I don't know....yet!. Perhaps it would have been OK with the Elsbett nozzles, if the dodgy washers hadn't knackered them.

As for heating the fuel any kind of electric fuel heater is useless for that first few seconds you are cranking (and the next few minutes). I have plans to fit a temperature sensor to the fuel line after the heater and see what the rate of rise is with it - just out of curiosity.

I have seen an induction heating rig for use on the fuel lines, but I would be more inclined to fitting it around the injectors and timing it with the glowplugs. That way the injectors and a bit of fuel would be warm for the startup.

I think the way to go is to start on diesel, and monitor the coolant temp to a heat exchanger. Once the coolant hits 70 degrees or so (which is about a mile and a half for me) then switch onto SVO. That way the SVO will be nice and warm and a lot thinner. The only tricky bit will be remembering to switch back to diesel a few minutes before you arrive at your destination.

Once I get the injectors sorted and a few more bits come through the post this is the way I'll be going. I'll keep the Elsbett heat exchanger and glowplugs and fit a small marine type tank in the back for diesel and use some control valves to switch between 100% diesel or 100% SVO

I have had quite a few experiences of the "don't touch it if it's working" variety....and I've still yet to learn ;)

Regards

TFB

[DLM48]

i was thinking of - planning to - put a custom made alloy tank under the bonnet for say a gallon or more of pump diesel - short lines and no loss of boot space - the 'sensible' alternative is a tank in the middle of the spare wheel but then that means a filler and fuel lines feed and return plus holes in the boot floor pipe routes and fixing these pipes - and of course both tanks/locations need a lift pump.

IF you forget to switch to diesel before switching off you should be able to do a quick purge - the issue is mixing some SVO in your 100% diesel tank as it is forced up the return line - hardly a big issue really.

auto switching from diesel to SVO should be easy peasy - you might need a radio beacon (and the appropriate transmitter licence - mmmmm 35MHZ is free - he he a radio controlled diesel Volvo) on your roof and a receiver in the car to trip the switch back to diesel as you drive home though :-)

[DLM48]

I am coming to same conclusion about twin-tanking.

From my experiments so far the major problem I have had with 100% SVO is cold starting. 50/50 is fine, the car has started fine over these last few coldish days even with the dodgy injectors. You are trying to pull/push a very thick viscous fluid through the pump and the injectors. This will put extra strain on the pump, as to whether the pump is capable of taking that extra strain I don't know....yet!. Perhaps it would have been OK with the Elsbett nozzles, if the dodgy washers hadn't knackered them.

As for heating the fuel any kind of electric fuel heater is useless for that first few seconds you are cranking (and the next few minutes). I have plans to fit a temperature sensor to the fuel line after the heater and see what the rate of rise is with it - just out of curiosity.

I have seen an induction heating rig for use on the fuel lines, but I would be more inclined to fitting it around the injectors and timing it with the glowplugs. That way the injectors and a bit of fuel would be warm for the startup.

I think the way to go is to start on diesel, and monitor the coolant temp to a heat exchanger. Once the coolant hits 70 degrees or so (which is about a mile and a half for me) then switch onto SVO. That way the SVO will be nice and warm and a lot thinner. The only tricky bit will be remembering to switch back to diesel a few minutes before you arrive at your destination.

Once I get the injectors sorted and a few more bits come through the post this is the way I'll be going. I'll keep the Elsbett heat exchanger and glowplugs and fit a small marine type tank in the back for diesel and use some control valves to switch between 100% diesel or 100% SVO

I have had quite a few experiences of the "don't touch it if it's working" variety....and I've still yet to learn ;)

Regards

TFB

Well as the VW Rabbit Golf to us guys was one of the first cars to go veggie i think the pump is up for the job so that is not a big worry. Sub zero temperatures and SVO are of course and move the goalposts quite a bit in the wrong direction. I am somewhat concerned about all of the electrical heaters especially as you are going to need that on the coldest days when you want your battery to be unencumbered when it is trying to start the engine these are just unwanted loads at that time. I think you said that the Elsbett kit keeps the glow plugs powered up till the engine reaches working temperature that to me seems excessive - are you sure of this timing? I would have thought once the engine was running and you had good solid combustion you had no further need for the glow plugs.

You can get induction heating for the fuel lines from the IP to the injectors i have not seen induction heating used in any other area you can also get direct heating wires for these pipes too.

I seems sad that you bought one of the best kits around with the best reputation yet you seem to be experiencing a fair number of problems and issues that i would have expected to be totally sorted - it is almost as bad as Microsoft and their O/S's they take the money and the customer gets the pain - and it sorta failed the German engineering test - i wonder if any Swedish companies do SVO kits :-) I wonder if there is a Elsbett SVO forum?

regards

[RoyMacDonald]

I seems sad that you bought one of the best kits around with the best reputation yet you seem to be experiencing a fair number of problems and issues that i would have expected to be totally sorted - it is almost as bad as Microsoft and their O/S's they take the money and the customer gets the pain - and it sorta failed the German engineering test - i wonder if any Swedish companies do SVO kits :-) I wonder if there is a Elsbett SVO forum?

regards

If the kit had been bought and fitted as it came I would agee with you, but did you read the way it was fitted? It wouldn't matter how good the quality of a kit was if it was fitted in that way. If you installed a M/S operating system then deleted/hacked vital files would you still expect it to work perfectly? I have seen the Elsbett 1 tank kit working fine on an old Land Rover Defender and a VW Golf.

Roy

[DLM48]

If the kit had been bought and fitted as it came I would agee with you, but did you read the way it was fitted? It wouldn't matter how good the quality of a kit was if it was fitted in that way. If you installed a M/S operating system then deleted/hacked vital files would you still expect it to work perfectly? I have seen the Elsbett 1 tank kit working fine on an old Land Rover Defender and a VW Golf.

Roy

i agree in part that it was not installed in a logical or ideal way but i still would not have expected the problems that occurred and yes as an IT consultant i have had to 'modify' vital files to get the OS to work properly i have a real issue with MS software and for sure getting it to work 'perfectly' is difficult it not actually impossible......but we are moving off the topic here.

[tfb]

Oh, dont get me wrong. I do think the Elsbett kit was quite well though out. I am sure that it was being supplied with the wrong heatshield washers was what kanckered the injectors. It just goes to prove that someone who calimes to be an expert and even trades as such can make mistakes (or is just plain stupid!) Needless to say I won't be using the Diesel Service Centre in Peterborough again.
I do have doubts as to the effectiveness of the electric filter supplied by Elsbett. 180W of power is not going to heat the fuel up quickly and even when it does heat up, you still have cold fuel in the IP and lines to the injectors. Perhaps the Elsbett nozzles would have coped with it, but not after have the combustion gasses and materials forced back up around them due the dodgy heatshield washers.

Regards
TFB

[GRM]

A few things to consider:

1. Be careful which oil you use. Veg oil can be quite acidic and will eat certain fuel and injector pumps. Bosch are OK apparently others dissolve!
2. 100% oil can go really thick in cold conditions, a bit like wax. If you want to run 100% you'd need a pre heater.
3. The longer molecules in veg oil will tend to clogg injectors after a while. STP injector cleaner seems to work.
4. It is legal as long as you pay duty. If they catch you not paying duty and you can't prove how much you've used they will back date the duty over the full mileage of the car!

Hopefully the kit will solve all of these problems, however I run my standard D5 on about 30% veg oil and it works fine and gets round the above issues.

Sorry just saw all the other answers!!! doh!

[RoyMacDonald]

i agree in part that it was not installed in a logical or ideal way but i still would not have expected the problems that occurred.

What problems would you not have expected given that the kit was never installed correctly/completly?

Roy

[DLM48]

What problems would you not have expected given that the kit was never installed correctly/completly?

Roy

well leaking injectors for one and two the carbonised injectors caused by what looks like the wrong sealing washers for the injectors/engine - fitting new tips to the injectors is a boys job and i suspect that there is something wrong with the new parts supplied and it looks like the wrong sealing washers were supplied which caused even more problems BOTH of these issues have nothing to do with the bit by bit way this kit was installed.

[DLM48]

A few things to consider:

1. Be careful which oil you use. Veg oil can be quite acidic and will eat certain fuel and injector pumps. Bosch are OK apparently others dissolve!
2. 100% oil can go really thick in cold conditions, a bit like wax. If you want to run 100% you'd need a pre heater.
3. The longer molecules in veg oil will tend to clogg injectors after a while. STP injector cleaner seems to work.
4. It is legal as long as you pay duty. If they catch you not paying duty and you can't prove how much you've used they will back date the duty over the full mileage of the car!

Hopefully the kit will solve all of these problems, however I run my standard D5 on about 30% veg oil and it works fine and gets round the above issues.

Sorry just saw all the other answers!!! doh!

please read the thread up to 2,500 litres is now tax free

[RoyMacDonald]

well leaking injectors for one and two the carbonised injectors caused by what looks like the wrong sealing washers for the injectors/engine - fitting new tips to the injectors is a boys job and i suspect that there is something wrong with the new parts supplied and it looks like the wrong sealing washers were supplied which caused even more problems BOTH of these issues have nothing to do with the bit by bit way this kit was installed.

The incorrect sealing washers that caused the leaking and carbonisation were supplied by Diesel Service Centre in Peterborough, not Elsbett.

Roy

Just to add..... the installed Elsbett kits I saw were professional installs and hadn't given any problems. One was the installers own vehicle (the Defender)

[DLM48]

The incorrect sealing washers that caused the leaking and carbonisation were supplied by Diesel Service Centre in Peterborough, not Elsbett.

Roy

Just to add..... the installed Elsbett kits I saw were professional installs and hadn't given any problems. One was the installers own vehicle (the Defender)


Well i read it that the washers came from Elsbett but you could be right and they came from the Diesel Service Centre in Peterborough. But if so why did Elsbett not supply these parts? The injectors were leaking diesel after fitting the Elsbett nozzles - they were leaking diesel not having sealing problems in the cylinder head - these diesel leaks are nothing to do with these sealing washers it would seem that there is a problem with the fit of the nozzles in the injector and no matter how tight or hard you tighten the nozzle nut these leak wont go away. I agree that a professional will have/should have less problems fitting these kits - or be better equipped and experienced to solve these sort of problems - doubly so if it is his own vehicle when the motivation to do the best job possible will be to the fore - but surely these kits should be almost idiot proof they are sold as DIY after all.

[tfb]

Apologies for any confusion. Elsbett just supply the nozzles and leave it up to you to find an expert to fit them into the injector bodies. Sadly it seems the company I chose to fit the nozzles in the bodies were not experts!

There could have been a problem with the fit of the Elsbett nozzles or it could have been the incorrect installation by the so-called experts or it could have been the heatshield washers supplied by the so-called experts.

I think it is most likely that the washers were the root cause of the problem. Having opened up the injectors it's hard to see how you could put them together wrongly. Measuring the Elsbett nozzles with a micrometer all the external dimensions match the Bosch ones to within a few thou'. So I'm still convinced that it was the washers letting the comustion gassess up into the bodies that caused the leaking and damage.

regards
TFB

[DLM48]

ok still confused these washers are internal to the injector and not external going between the cyl head and the injector

thanks

David

[tfb]

David

The washers are external to the injector body and sit between the injector body and and the cylinder head. They provide a seal around the face of the nozzle and the pre-chamber. The dodgy ones I was given simply didn't seal and left the whole of the nozzle face and bottom of the injector body open to the combustion gasses.
I'll take some pictures when my exchange set of injectors arrive....still hoping it will be today!

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

David

The washers are external to the injector body and sit between the injector body and and the cylinder head. They provide a seal around the face of the nozzle and the pre-chamber. The dodgy ones I was given simply didn't seal and left the whole of the nozzle face and bottom of the injector body open to the combustion gasses.
I'll take some pictures when my exchange set of injectors arrive....still hoping it will be today!

Regards
TFB

well that is what i thought......................so where was the diesel leaking from on the injector? was it coming from the nut that holds on the nozzle? if not from where?

can you take some pics of both styles of sealing washers?

thanks

[tfb]

My exchange injectors have arrived :)...just to dark to fit them now though :(

Ok, I taken a few pics using the new injectors as they are clean and wont mess up the dining room table!

1st picture shows where I was getting the fuel leak after having the Elsbett nozzles fitted

2nd picture shows the face of the injector and where the heatshield washer seals on it

3rd picture shows a good new heatshield washer

4th picture shows the remains of one of the dodgy washers I was given

Regards

TFB

[DLM48]

Yes leaking where i thought it would be - are you going back to the std injectors or have you had the Elsbett nozzles fitted again?

Are these your injectors reworked or did you find a spare set to overhaul?

I have just found a hidden treasure trove of old Volvos - lots of Diesels too he he

NOPE i wont say where ATM BUT if you are looking for a spare set of injectors i could see if i can get two sets one for me and one for you if you are interested.

great and useful pictures BTW

thanks again

[tfb]

Wow! a hidden trove of diesels...sounds like heaven ;)

The injectors are a refurbished set from United Diesel Ltd. They are fitted with standard nozzles to get me back up and running.

I may send the knackered nozzles back to Elsbett and see if they can do anything with them. Even soaking them overnight didn't help shift the carbonisation on them and I was afraid to use anything more abrasive than a toothbrush for fear of making the leaks worse.

I'll get this set of injectors fitted in tomorrow and I probably wont do any more tinkering until after xmas.

Oh yes, someone asked about the time the glowplugs are lit. I haven't measured it yet. But the control relay takes a singal from a new Elsbett supplied thermostat and the relay for the electric fuel filter heater is fed from the glowplug relay output, so I assmue the glowplugs are on until the coolant temp hits 70 degrees and then they and the electric fuel filter heater turn off.

I wont post the Elsbett wiring diagrams as I'm fairly sure they are copyrighted, but I'll draw up another diagram and post that.

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

Wow! a hidden trove of diesels...sounds like heaven ;)

The injectors are a refurbished set from United Diesel Ltd. They are fitted with standard nozzles to get me back up and running.

I may send the knackered nozzles back to Elsbett and see if they can do anything with them. Even soaking them overnight didn't help shift the carbonisation on them and I was afraid to use anything more abrasive than a toothbrush for fear of making the leaks worse.

I'll get this set of injectors fitted in tomorrow and I probably wont do any more tinkering until after xmas.

Oh yes, someone asked about the time the glowplugs are lit. I haven't measured it yet. But the control relay takes a singal from a new Elsbett supplied thermostat and the relay for the electric fuel filter heater is fed from the glowplug relay output, so I assmue the glowplugs are on until the coolant temp hits 70 degrees and then they and the electric fuel filter heater turn off.

I wont post the Elsbett wiring diagrams as I'm fairly sure they are copyrighted, but I'll draw up another diagram and post that.

Regards
TFB

i have heard that there are two types of glowplugs........7 volt ones and 11 volt ones obviously the 7 volt ones are 'hotter' fed with 12 volts but dont last as long - since the Elsbett kit is powering the glow plugs for a longer time period i would assume that they are not 7 volt glow plugs - twas me that asked about the longer timing of the glow plugs.

thanks and regards

[tfb]

The new injectors got fitted this morning and wow! waht a difference :) A hell of a lot better than before I even started tinkering with the car. Nice smooth idle, more power, smoother to drive and lots less smoke!

I think I measured the voltage across the glowplugs at about 10V, I'll check see exactly what it is and for how long they are powered up for too. Should get a chance to do that on Saturday

Regards

TFB

[DLM48]

The new injectors got fitted this morning and wow! waht a difference :) A hell of a lot better than before I even started tinkering with the car. Nice smooth idle, more power, smoother to drive and lots less smoke!

I think I measured the voltage across the glowplugs at about 10V, I'll check see exactly what it is and for how long they are powered up for too. Should get a chance to do that on Saturday

Regards

TFB

i am about to get a spare set of injectors and have them refurbished - sounds like you won a watch with that one.

The voltage over the glow plugs is interesting but it is the plugs that have so i am told two working voltages obviously a 7V one will be a lot hotter than an 11V one BUT wont last as long especially if on for 'longer' periods of time so what i was asking was if you knew the working voltages of both the old and new glow plugs?

thanks again

[David Humphrey]

I have a 740TD and have read this thread with interest and would be grateful for any advice on how much vegetable oil I can mix with diesel during the winter months in the uk without running into problems with a totally unmodified vehicle.I should add that my journeys are quite short.
David

[RoyMacDonald]

I have a 740TD and have read this thread with interest and would be grateful for any advice on how much vegetable oil I can mix with diesel during the winter months in the uk without running into problems with a totally unmodified vehicle.I should add that my journeys are quite short.
David

My answer would be none, but that probably isn't what you want to hear.

Roy

[DLM48]

I have a 740TD and have read this thread with interest and would be grateful for any advice on how much vegetable oil I can mix with diesel during the winter months in the uk without running into problems with a totally unmodified vehicle.I should add that my journeys are quite short.
David

well depends on what part of the country you are in i suppose - the warm south west or the cold frozen north? 20% SVO should be fine for starters and you can up it to about 50/50 SVO/PD slowly as you find out it works ok and then to 60/70/80/90% SVO in the summer i am running 50/50 with no issues and according to my external temp gauge it has been as cold as -4 here in Bonnie Scotland BUT if you are into short journeys <5 miles or so why would you bother? IF you are serious about running a high percentage of SVO you really do want to think about heating the SVO and if you want to run 100% SVO i 'now' think you need to twin tank the vehicle to get the best possible performance and i mean operating performance not 'extra' BHP or anything like that. Just my thoughts of course but my Fiat Punto has been running for a year now totally unmodified and without any serious issues never mind the slightest of hiccups.

regards

[tfb]

I agree with DLM48, before any modifications my car would start and run on a 50/50 mix with the only noticeable effect being a slight chip shop smell and more cash in my wallet at the end of the week!.

As for short journeys, it depends how short they are going to be. I have read of problems caused by the engine being turned off when before it is fully warm. The gist of the problem is that fuel condenses on the coolish cylinder walls and and then runs down into the sump. When the veg oil mixes with the engine oil it starts to solidify the engine oil.

If you are going to try some I would recommend that you look at increasing the frequency of changing you oil. I change mine every month, which is about 2400-4000 miles.

Have a look at http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108 for a horror story of what SVO/WVO can do to an engine. However that chap got about 50,000 miles out of his engine before any problems occurred. Now 50,000 miles at 40mpg is 1250 gallons or 5700 liters or circa £6000 on diesel. On 100% SVO that would be about £3000. So a saving of £3000 or even more if using waste oil.

SVO/WVO or even LPG really only makes sense if you are doing a lot of miles. I could replace my 940TD every year and still be saving money.

Anti-veg people throw statements around like " a new injector pump will cost you £1500" or " a replacement engine will be $3000". Yes, sure if you buy it new from a dealer but who on earth spends £1500 on a car worth £300-£1000? An IP from a scrappy will be £50-£100, an engine £150 or a complete running taxed/MOT'd car can be had for £300.

Pro-veg people will say "yes, just throw anything thing and these VE pumps will handle it". I prefer a more middle line. If you are going to experiment then remember it is an experiment and it may fail or succeed.

If I get time to draw up my sketches I'll post my plans for my twin tank system later on.

Regards
TFB

[tfb]

Oh, one other thing. If you are planning to mix Diesel and veg I would recommend you do it either in a jerry can or get the car running with and then add the two and take it for a decent run to allow it to mix.

Shaking a full 20lt jerry can or plastic cube is not easy on the arms!

I have had the engine running (cold) and tipped cold SVO into the tank and you can hear the revs drops and the engine struggle a bit. It seems that the SVO goes straight to the bottom of the tank (or whereever the pickup is). By taking it for a run the action of movement and the excess fuel being returned to the tank mixes it up all nicely.

Regards
TFB

[David Humphrey]

Thanks for all your help.I am in Norfolk and cover about 15000 miles a year so financially it would be worthwhile and it seems to be lawful now.I had wondered whether it might be possible to put a mains electric heater into the fuel tank in the same way that I beleive people use sump heaters in very cold climates.So you start off in the morning with a warm tank of fuel and in addition replace the existing fuel filter with a heated one such as the fiat one. It would be possible to insulate the tank and lines presumably. Not sure how safe it would bethough.
The only other method is two tanks and because there is so much room around the engine I too have wondered about a tank under the bonnet but you would then need the changeover valves and remember to do it etc etc.
I saw svo at 58p/l in the shops today which does seem very appealing although that will probably increase if we all end up doing it.
David

[DLM48]

Thanks for all your help.I am in Norfolk and cover about 15000 miles a year so financially it would be worthwhile and it seems to be lawful now.I had wondered whether it might be possible to put a mains electric heater into the fuel tank in the same way that I beleive people use sump heaters in very cold climates.So you start off in the morning with a warm tank of fuel and in addition replace the existing fuel filter with a heated one such as the fiat one. It would be possible to insulate the tank and lines presumably. Not sure how safe it would bethough.
The only other method is two tanks and because there is so much room around the engine I too have wondered about a tank under the bonnet but you would then need the changeover valves and remember to do it etc etc.
I saw svo at 58p/l in the shops today which does seem very appealing although that will probably increase if we all end up doing it.
David

TOTALLY no point in heating the SVO unless you can heat the injectors and the Injection Pump too - talking about cold start conditions of course as all you pre heating will get undone the second the SVO hits the cold IP. Put in an engine pre heater if 80% of your cold starts will be at home and you can get power to the car. I am 'thinking' about moving the battery (dont know where to YET!!! ) and using that space for an alloy PD tank - with the battery gone there is lots of room - might even be possible with a tank above the battery. Change over valves and the bits to operate them at cold start time are easily sourced - switching back over to PD on the way home is the only BIG issue a smaller one might be mixing a small amount of SVO into your PD tank if you want to keep the pipe runs simple. Who was selling SVO at 58ppl?

[tfb]

Tesco's
Own brand corn oil 1lt bottles @ 54p each
Pura Rapeseed oil 1lt bottles @ 56p each (cleared the shelves at Huntingdon this morning!)


Costco
KTC 20ltr cubes and cans @ £13.89

Asda
KTC 15ltr cubes @ £8.40 (but i've heard they've gone up to about £10)

The prices of the 15 and 20lt cubes do seem to vary. I can get them for a far better price in London than I can in Cambridgeshire, but the 1lt bottles are the same price.

David
I'm not far from the Cambridgeshire/Norfolk border, so if you fancy popping across for a look and and a chat just send me a PM.

DLM
Same invite goes to you (but appreciate it's a bit further!). And I agree about the cold start issue. That's why I'm going to twin tank it.

Regards
TFB

[tfb]

OK, finally got 30 mins to knock up some schematics (kids still hyper from xmas).

System explanation

The 6 port valve is switched by having the polarity of the voltage applied to it reversed.

With the purge/auto switch in the auto (open) position, the change over relay and the heater relay are energized. This sends power to the filter heater and provides power to the 6 port valve in one polarity and one of the LED's will light.
When the coolant temp reaches 70 degrees C the thermo switch will open and cause the two relays to de-energize. This will turn off the filter heater and change the polarity of the power to the 6 port valve nd light the other LED.
By closing the purge/auto switch, the thermo switch is bypassed and the system thinks the engine is cold and thus the 6 port valve changes over again. The filter heater will turn on again and this is an unwanted side effect. I'd need a bit more complicated wiring to keep it off.

I'll use industrial solid state relays for switching with, 12V LED's for indication and a simple toggle switch for the auto/purge switch. I should be able to sacrifice the little cubby hole next to the cigar lighter as a place to mount them all.

I haven't reviewed the drawings yet, so I may have made some glaring errors, just point them out kindly to me please. Oh, I haven't shown any fuses in the circuit, but rest assured there will be lots of them!

Regards

TFB

[David Humphrey]

The plans look very impressive to me but not sure I have the expertise to source and install all the pieces separately.I wondered what people thought of the attached kits ?
http://www.smartveg.com/
David

[tfb]

The kits looks quite good. Just remember you will need to add about £200 to £300 it you want the kit fitted for you. Had I not tried the single tank option first then I would have most likely chosen one of their kits myself.

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

The plans look very impressive to me but not sure I have the expertise to source and install all the pieces separately.I wondered what people thought of the attached kits ?
http://www.smartveg.com/
David


The kit looks fine but i would want lots of feed back from satisfied customers in fact a list of customers that they have supplied these kits to so you can do your own investigations - ask for Volvo Owners Discount of course - as you will be posting your results here - WONT YOU!!!!!


Costing well that depends on your mindset i suppose rounding all figures PD to £1 and SVO to 50p and assuming 38MPG

The Elite 22 kit will cost £600

£600 of PD will take you 5,000 miles

£600 of SVO will take you 12,000 miles

so PD is 12 PPM SVO is 6 PPM

Assuming you buy the kit and spread the cost over the first 15,000 miles you will use 1800 litres of SVO ignore the PD cost should not be more than £20 i would suggest

Kit @ £600 + 1800 litres of SVO @ £900 = Total £1500 That equals 10 PPM for year one a saving of almost 17% or wallet wise your 1800 litres of PD would have cost £1800 so you have actually saved £300 even though you spent £600 on buying the kit. All following years you should be at the 6 PPM or thereabouts a rather serious saving and well a really green way to drive too.

COST CALCULATOR

http://www.dieselveg.com/vegmodel.xls

[DLM48]

OK, finally got 30 mins to knock up some schematics (kids still hyper from xmas).

System explanation

The 6 port valve is switched by having the polarity of the voltage applied to it reversed.

With the purge/auto switch in the auto (open) position, the change over relay and the heater relay are energized. This sends power to the filter heater and provides power to the 6 port valve in one polarity and one of the LED's will light.
When the coolant temp reaches 70 degrees C the thermo switch will open and cause the two relays to de-energize. This will turn off the filter heater and change the polarity of the power to the 6 port valve nd light the other LED.
By closing the purge/auto switch, the thermo switch is bypassed and the system thinks the engine is cold and thus the 6 port valve changes over again. The filter heater will turn on again and this is an unwanted side effect. I'd need a bit more complicated wiring to keep it off.

I'll use industrial solid state relays for switching with, 12V LED's for indication and a simple toggle switch for the auto/purge switch. I should be able to sacrifice the little cubby hole next to the cigar lighter as a place to mount them all.

I haven't reviewed the drawings yet, so I may have made some glaring errors, just point them out kindly to me please. Oh, I haven't shown any fuses in the circuit, but rest assured there will be lots of them!

Regards

TFB

In the first diagram use the thermal switch to drive a two pole relay and you can use one pole for the existing thermal switched circuit and the other to switch the + 12V power after the filter heater relay or the return to the filter heater. The LEDs will still have a return so should work OK that way the purge switch wont power the filter heater IF the thermal switch is active. What is the box to the left of the thermal switch and the switch in the line above it the heater relay? if so it is open when it should be closed as the thermal switch is closed? OR you could move the purge switch line to between the two relays and isolate the heater relay with a diode so the purge switch wont activate it and only the thermal switch can.

[mickythemechy]

Engineer is wrong to say its legal,unless you declare it to HM revenue you cant use veg oil from tesco or anywhere else in a motor vehicle on the public roads as you havent paid tax.Google veg oil in cars there are a ruck of sites on this issue.Mick

[DLM48]

Engineer is wrong to say its legal,unless you declare it to HM revenue you cant use veg oil from tesco or anywhere else in a motor vehicle on the public roads as you havent paid tax.Google veg oil in cars there are a ruck of sites on this issue.Mick

OH MY here we go again

Historically in the U.K, H.M. Revenue and Customs (HMRC) levied a fuel duty of 28.35 pence per litre for all vegetable oils that meet the fiscal definition of what's confusingly termed ‘biodiesel’. This represented a discount of 20 pence on the normal duty level for conventional diesel.

However, it has cost HMRC more to police and process payments from private users/producers than the revenue generated. From 1 July 2007, users/producers of 2,500 litres or less per annum will no longer be required to submit a monthly return (although existing producers will be required to keep basic records for an additional 6 years). This means the use of compliant vegetable oils will be DUTY FREE for the private motorist.

The HMRC’s web site - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

[DLM48]

have fun

http://www.dieselveg.com/vegmodel.xls

regards

[tfb]

In the first diagram use the thermal switch to drive a two pole relay and you can use one pole for the existing thermal switched circuit and the other to switch the + 12V power after the filter heater relay or the return to the filter heater. The LEDs will still have a return so should work OK that way the purge switch wont power the filter heater IF the thermal switch is active. What is the box to the left of the thermal switch and the switch in the line above it the heater relay? if so it is open when it should be closed as the thermal switch is closed? OR you could move the purge switch line to between the two relays and isolate the heater relay with a diode so the purge switch wont activate it and only the thermal switch can.

Yep, the box is a relay for the filter heater, it's 180W so draws 15A and will need to fed over a relay. Also might have drawn the contact as normaly open instead of normaly closed....too much beer to think straight at the moment!. Will have a better look when sober and thanks for the suggestions :)

Also forgot to add that the +12V is from a swithced supply (i'll use the feed to the IP fuel valve ), but the feed for the heater will be direct fromt he battery.

TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

I have a 740TD and have read this thread with interest and would be grateful for any advice on how much vegetable oil I can mix with diesel during the winter months in the uk without running into problems with a totally unmodified vehicle.I should add that my journeys are quite short.
David

What people seem to think is that if you can start up on SOV and diesel and run OK that everything is fine, without considering what happens when you stop and switch the engine off. Two tank systems are used for a reason. When you switch the engine off the fuel you are using will be left all over the the injectors, valves, pistons, etc. The SOV will cool and get baked onto everything.....the dreaded knacker laquer. In a robust engine like the Merc 190D or the Volvo 740 TD you will get away with it for several years but it will kill the engine eventually which is why I think it's worth doing the job properly and not wrecking fine engines.

Roy

[tfb]

Electrical drawing Rev2. Updated with DLM48's comments.

1) Auto/Purge switch moved to between the Changeover and Filter heater relays
2) Diode added to prevent a back feed picking up the Filter Heater relay when the purge switch is operated
3) More labeling added
4) Now shows which parts of the cct. are fed from the permament live and which are fed from a switched live
5) www.rswww.com down :( so I can't spec the relays

Note cct is show in it's de-energized state, that's why the contact for the filter heater is shown as open

Regards
TFB

[DLM48]

What people seem to think is that if you can start up on SOV and diesel and run OK that everything is fine, without considering what happens when you stop and switch the engine off. Two tank systems are used for a reason. When you switch the engine off the fuel you are using will be left all over the the injectors, valves, pistons, etc. The SOV will cool and get baked onto everything.....the dreaded knacker laquer. In a robust engine like the Merc 190D or the Volvo 740 TD you will get away with it for several years but it will kill the engine eventually which is why I think it's worth doing the job properly and not wrecking fine engines.

Roy

Without getting into a war - there is theory and practice - plenty of theoreticians support your view - but practice does not seem to follow theory here. There are many many examples of single tank cars running without all these theoretical problems which have done hundreds of thousands of miles without dying a premature death due to running on SVO or even WVO. In fact there are two bench mark cars/engines the Merc one with the inline Bosch IP and the VW Golf/Rabbit/Jetta engine which is the baby version of the engine in the Volvo. Identical in every way apart from being a 4 cyl engine and not a 6 cyl one. Obviously the people who supply two tank systems are somewhat supportive of the view that you hold. BUT for sure i have found that theory is flawed here running my Punto with the rotary pump that wont work with cold SVO has been a painless and interesting experiment. It seems strange to me that with all this theory about and all the experts predicting doom and gloom we have yet to see any stripped down engines showing these engine killing symptoms/effects. SVO is actually a 'better' lubricant than PD and significantly 'better' than BD in many many areas not least being greener and less 'harmful' to the pipes pumps and seals in your 'typical' diesel vehicle. Running on a single tank VO system is for sure less complex - both the Merc and the Volvo IP's can 'handle' the thicker VO without any problems - though i 'think' i heard of one D24T camshaft breaking' not really sure if this was a VO issue. The only problem you will have is winter cold starting - probably easily and cheaply solved by using longer hotter glow plugs with perhaps a longer heat cycle (if you are technical) and a electrically heated fuel filter insert easily obtained from a scrap yard many diesel cars have them including the Fiat Punto apart from this 'cold start issue' i dont see any others - for sure not that knacker lacquer nonsense. Sadly we all dont have the time and the energy and the finances to do a proper investigation of what works best here so it is all a matter of opinion and sorting out the wheat from the chaff or in this case the oil from the rape seed is not that easy.

Just my view(s) of course

[tfb]

Well, I had a few minutes over the last couple of days to tinker with Volvo . I was curious to find out the operating specs of the Elsbett electric fuel heater, the new glow plug control and the fuel temperature.

The Elsbett supplied control relay keeps the glow plugs running for 180 seconds after the engine starts as long as the coolant temperature is under 70 degrees C. If the coolant temperature reaches 70 degrees C within that 3 minutes, then the glow plugs are turned off. If the ignition is turned on but the engine not cranked then the glow plugs turn off after 14 seconds. The electric fuel filter heater is also controlled by the glow plug control circuit.

I have had my doubts as to the effectiveness any form of electric fuel heater, I can't see how you can dump enough energy into the fuel to make much of a difference. As the Elsbett heater is only running for the same length of time as the glow plugs, this really doesn't allow much time for heating at all.

I got hold of a little inline fuel filter and melted a hole in the side and glued a temperature probe into it (see attached pic). I then put the filter between the heated filter and the injection pump. With the car parked on the drive and the engine idling I recorded the temperature every 10 seconds. I did 3 test runs. 2 were for 4 minutes and one only lasted 2 minutes as I was interrupted with “ Daaaaaddd, George has stuck my Polly Pocket up his nose!”.

The three runs were:
1.Coolant heat exchanger in circuit and electric filter heater on
2.Coolant heat exchanger in circuit and electric filter heater off
3.Coolant heat exchanger out of circuit and electric filter on

I did each run in the morning after the car had been standing overnight to ensure that the engine and fuel were at ambient temperature.

Interpreting then results:
The initial fuel temperature varies for each run, as this was what the ambient temperature was at the time, the important part of the results is the shape of the curve which is the rate of increase.

As can be seen from the resulting graph (see attached file) There is no increase in fuel temperature for about 60 seconds, then the tests with the coolant heater exchanger in circuit show the temperature starting to rise. The electric heated fuel filter takes over 90 seconds before any rise in temperature is seen. I suspect the slight fall in temperature during the first 50 seconds of each run is due to my handling of the temperature probe warming it up slightly and it being cooled by the fuel. The variation is only 0.5 degree but as it occurred on every run it can't be written off without an explanation.

Despite the low rate of increase seen from the electric fuel heater, I will leave it in circuit in case at some point I start to use waste vegetable oil and it should help prevent the filter from clogging up with wax before the coolant has hit 70 degrees and I switch over to veg.

I did one more test run of taking the car for a quick spin around the Fens (about 10miles) and found that the fuel temperature stabilized at about 62 degrees C and it took about 2.5miles for the coolant temperature to reach 70 degrees C and the Elsbett supplied temperature switch to operate.

Next planned experiments are to measure the viscosity of diesel, diesel/SVO mix and pure SVO at various temperatures.

Regards
TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

I have had my doubts as to the effectiveness any form of electric fuel heater, I can't see how you can dump enough energy into the fuel to make much of a difference. As the Elsbett heater is only running for the same length of time as the glow plugs, this really doesn't allow much time for heating at all.



Next planned experiments are to measure the viscosity of diesel, diesel/SVO mix and pure SVO at various temperatures.

Regards
TFB

There are already comprehensive tests on line of the viscosity of diesel and SOV at different temperatures. No mix temps though. I can't remember where I saw them though, but you might like to brouse for them. I'll post if I come across them again. The tests might have been related to the fuel injector induction heater I posted about previously.

Thanks for the useful info. I can see why Smartveg have chosen not to bother with fuel heaters now.

Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

This isn't the article but it does have some information and gives information on Elsbett's tests & reasoning. Also of note is the use of Plantmot engine oil and the absense of lacquer.

http://www.ilot.edu.pl/2005%201_2%20pdf/04_2005%20NO%201%20-%202%20bialkowski.pdf

Roy

[RoyMacDonald]

Still looking for the original article I saw but found this on a page...

Mixing fuels
Myth: Mix it with diesel fuel or kerosene, then just put it in and go.

Examples:

"I've been running a vegoil/diesel mix, 50/50 winter 70/30 summer."


"I'm running on about 50% petro-diesel to 50% veg-oil, no problems!"


"I use 90% WVO and 10% kerosene as my standard summer fuel."
Responses from seasoned SVO users:

"Your cold starts will begin to deteriorate, your filter will probably start plugging, your injectors will get coked up, setting the stage for ring sticking, glazing of the cylinder walls, increased lube oil consumption and eventual engine failure -- if you can continue to get the thing started in the morning. More than 20% or so veg-oil in the diesel is not a good plan for more than short term 'experiments'."


"Mixing veg-oil and diesel isn't advisable unless you heat all the fuel."
We've said much the same: "You'll need what amounts to an SVO system with fuel pre-heating anyway."

I found this article which has some comparisons between SOV and diesel but is very long.....

http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm

Here's a brief rundown......
That's double the temperature the two-tank SVO systems use. At only 70-80 deg C. veg-oil is still much more viscous than petro-diesel -- six times more viscous in the case of rapeseed oil (canola),


Roy

[DLM48]

well all i can say/repeat is i have found NO and i mean NO problems running on a VO/PD mix in a vehicle where the pump was 'supposed' to be TOTALLY unsuitable - mixes varying from 50/50 to 80/20. and to repeat there is theory and there is practice and here (in my experience) the practice does not appear to support the theory. The D24T is a bigger version of the Golf engine which has megga miles on VO so i cant see any reason why the D25T VW/Volvo engine is not a GOOD candidate for running VO.

regards

[tfb]

I topped 9,000 miles on 50/50 SVO/diesel this week, with no problems -other than of my own making!. All I can say is that it wont start on 90/10 SVO/Unleaded in winter time.
I should have the twin tank solution installed and commissioned within two weeks, I just need to obtain a small marine tank to go in the boot and plumb that in. The wiring and control valve is in place. Mainly I need to wait for a few days of dry weather to allow the puddle in the driveway to dry out as I don't fancy laying in it as I run the pipework under the car!



Regards

TFB

[RoyMacDonald]

well all i can say/repeat is i have found NO and i mean NO problems running on a VO/PD mix in a vehicle where the pump was 'supposed' to be TOTALLY unsuitable - mixes varying from 50/50 to 80/20. and to repeat there is theory and there is practice and here (in my experience) the practice does not appear to support the theory. The D24T is a bigger version of the Golf engine which has megga miles on VO so i cant see any reason why the D25T VW/Volvo engine is not a GOOD candidate for running VO.

regards

The mega milage cars are with coverted Golf's though David. The test results I've seen show problems appearing when the miles start to build up to around a 100,000 miles. With the savings available, due to the tax break now, it may be economicly viable to wear an engine out early and replace it, but my concern is that people will write their Volvo off if the engine needs a major rebuild or replacement, and a lot of good Volvos will end up on the scrap heap.

Have you stripped your engine down to see if everything is OK and staying nice an clean inside?

Roy

[tfb]

If I could get 100,000 miles out of the car I would be extremely happy. In that time there are a hell of a lot of other things that could go wrong with it with a repair cost that would exceed exceed the replacement cost.

Regards
TFB

[tfb]

Yippee!

Finally got the time and the weather to complete (to a working state) the twin fitting this afternoon.

Things still to do

1) put some food dye in one tank to see how long the pump takes to purge ( I have fitted a clear disposable filter in the return from the pump so I can tell by the fuel colour when it has purged)

2) tidy up the hoses going to the aux tank in the boot

3) tidy up some of the wiring in the engine bay

4) take some photos and post them on here


Regards

TFB

[DLM48]

Oh Yes Please

[tfb]

Some pic's of the installation attached

The hardest part of the installation (not including getting the time to do it) was finding places to physically mount the stuff to. I ended up using a length of 100mm cable tray to mount the heat exchanger, relay, din rail terminals, heated filter and 6 port valve.

The new fuel lines from the valve to the aux diesel tank run from the valve and are zip-tied to the existing fuel lines under the car and then come up through a grommet under the back seat where they then pass under the rear seat into the boot. I have left enough slack on them so that the aux tank can be lifted out of the boot for filling if required, although I can just open the boot, unscrew the cap and fill it from a pump in situ.

The aux tank is a bit bigger than I would have liked, but it offered the best shape/size combination I could find at the chandlers. There is a semi-transparent strip on the side to check the level, but I can't see the fuel behind it! so I'll just have to unscrew the cap and peek in.

I will try adding some food dye to the fuel to see how long it takes to purge the veg oil from the pump, at the moment I'm allowing about 1/2 a mile to purge at the end of the journey and it seems to work.

Future works

1) find a better way of securing the aux tank. It's fairly solid at the moment, but I wouldn't want it flying around in an accident.

2) add a buzzer, via the courtesy light to remind me if I haven't purged when I open the door.

3) add a low fuel level indicator to the aux tank.

4) wire up the light in the heated seat switch to give a visual indication when in purge or auto mode.

Regards

TFB