Love My 1800, but...more problems

[Kauai1800]

Aloha All,

I've been on here a lot more because I've been able to find someone here on my tiny island who actually has owned a 1800 and has worked extensively on B18 and B20 engines. This is huge, since most of the repair shops here on Kauai won't even LOOK at the car. So I've really been looking forward to getting the car back on the road. Something bad happened one day in November and the car has been sitting since. It seemed like I might have broken a push rod or a timing gear..it barely ran and made a tremendous sound from the valve train. Also the seal between the header and the exhaust was messed up.

Well today I get an email from the shop and they are seeing coolant in the oil. I'm praying it's only a blown head gasket and not something worse. Sigh.

The thing that's got me down is that I always hear about how 'bulletproof' these old Volvos are. Now I know that they are NOT really bulletproof - it's just a relative term - I know this, but I feel like my car has really given me ENOUGH problems in the 3 years I have owned it.

So far I've had to replace the thermostat, have had to do a major repair to the shifter "arms" that move the car into reverse gear, had to replace the clutch master cylinder, had to replace the battery, had to replace the brake light pressure sensor, replaced the fuel pump and fuel lines, plus now it clearly needs pretty extensive exhaust and engine work. It's left me broken down beside the road at least 6 times. None of these problems were obvious when I purchased the car - I even had it checked over by a Volvo mechanic (the car came from the island of Oahu where there's 20x more people than on Kauai).

I know I'm whining..I know this is a 45 yo car and of course it needs constant care and repair. It's clear now that the car was in much better shape in terms of bodywork and aesthetics than it was in terms of mechnicals. But still, when I consider how this is the same car that has gone 2,000,000 miles on one engine and it's owner says all he's done is change the oil and do minor repairs..and then the whole "bulletproof" moniker that is frequently applied to the B18 and the Volvo gearboxes..well it's just a bit irksome.

It's just got me down - that's all. :broken_heart: It's a lovely sunny day here and I really want to cruise my 1800 without facing another $900 repair. But now I'm just hoping it won't require something even more extensive/expensive, because we're not even sure it's the head gasket yet. Wish me luck!

[amazon69]

Well, you know, nothing's perfect...my advice would be firstly to think that every repair is a step closer to a totally reliable car, and secondly, to suggest that you think about learning how to do repairs and upkeep yourself..there is nothing on your list of troubles that you would not be able to do yourself after a little pertinent reading...knowledge is power :)
I know it's a pita when things go wrong, but you're a lucky man to be driving such a beautiful car in such a beautiful part of the world, so take solace in that.

[Kauai1800]

Well, you know, nothing's perfect...
but you're a lucky man to be driving such a beautiful car in such a beautiful part of the world, so take solace in that.

Excellent point. I needed that!

And it's true that getting pity when one lives in Hawaii is not as easy as when one lives in say Wolverhampton.

As far as learning to do the repairs myself, again I agree. I did the work on the thermostat, the clutch cylinder and the battery myself, but I simply don't have the tools or experience to do things like pull the transmission or the engine block. It's one of the bad things about being so isolated - until I found this chap who has owned an 1800 and many other vintage imports, I was pretty much on my own with my Haynes manual.

If you've ever seen an IPD catalog, you might have seen a fellow Kauaian on the cover of their vintage catalog named Randall who has a old 544, and I know him well - but the thing they never mention about his car is that it has a Chevy small block in it - so his experience with old Volvo engines is basically about taking them out, not fixing them. oops.

But you are right. We all need to count our blessings (& I didn't mention my lovely wife and kids) and look to the big picture. Believe it or not, one can still get caught up in petty things even living in a paradise like this.

So now I'm working on that too...might be more important than the gasket, yeah?

[stevo48]

You are a very lucky man, you live in paradise, you have, I assume, a beautiful wife and family AND you own a gorgeous classic car, what more could a man want, as above, persevere with the car and you will in time have a stunning car that you can also be very proud of.

Steve.

[Derek UK]

Sounds like you need to sell a few more watches. (grin). A Geo will get you from A to B and $2.99 will get you a time keeper. Unfortunately we have to pay for the icing on the cake.

Glad that you managed to sort out the missing reverse and hope that this latest episode doesn't hit your pocket too hard.

[caliwagon]

One option would be to purchase and old Triumph and try running that for three years. Just kidding :)

Do you or your family also have a newer car? I ask because it's newer cars that can really be frustrating. Routine maintenance and unexpected repairs on today's cars (which usually occur just after the warranty expires) can really set you back. I think it's a lot easier to rack up expensive repair bills on something 5-6 years old than it is on something 45 years old (with the exception of bodywork--but it sounds like yours is in good shape). Even if you need a new engine, you can get a professionally built one for half the price of what it's going to cost me when the transmission goes out in my Volvo S60, and that's not even considering the labor!

In other words, be encouraged, because you're probably spending a lot less than you would be if you had 2000 BMW or Audi or something like that.

[Kauai1800]

Thanks for all the nice words...and yes I do need to sell a few watches! I used to sell them in Selfridges Wonder Room, but the salespeople didn't "get" it. Plus some big brands pay them incentives to push one brand over another, and we don't do stuff like that. Such is life for a small brand..

My other cars are a 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon and a 2003 Toyota 4runner. And you are right, modern repairs are more expensive and working on the car oneself is increasingly obtuse. For example yesterday I needed to replace the brake light on the Jetta. Went in from the inside no worries. Then I notice that a running light on the other side is out ( this is all while I'm sitting in the parking lot of an auto parts store). So I run inside buy the proper bulb and come back, pop open the interior panel to gain access to the bulbs but discover that it's very hard to access the bulbs on the driver side. After some effort I manage to get the bulb holder out, but then I see that the even after I put in a new bulb it's not working. After mucking about with various bulbs and a multimeter we figured out that the problem was a fuse. Believe it or not a vw jetta has seperate fuses for the left vs right running lights. In fact it has 6 fuses just for exterior lights alone. That seems like overkill to me. (we just "inherited" the jetta recently so I'm still learning about it).

[austingipsy]

I don't have six fuses for my whole house...the words death and trap do spring to mind though.
The only thing you want working perfectly on your 1800 is a good set of brakes, you'll spend so much time avoiding drunk driving cast members of Lost out there !!
Anyway, once you iron out all the foibles you should reach a zen like state of motoring ,until then, as long as you have a nice shiny socket set you can just treat it like the mechanical version of fly fishing. And you're not without wheels if it goes pear shaped so that takes the pressure off a bit. Every time it breaks you get a little wiser...oh eh and poorer :)

[terrormister]

Fantastic insights fellas. I fell about laughing when I heard about investing in an Audi or a Brain Melts Weakly! Just wondering if any one has read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence'? - this might throw some light on this situation. As far as I know Volvo never made anykind of motorcycle.

[asneddon]

Couldnt find a motorcycle, but this is close!
http://www.strangedangers.com/images/content/136357.jpg

[terrormister]

Strange dangers indeed! Captivating. This looks like somekind of Middle Earth torture device but it could be fast. Thanks again for the volvocycle

[Kauai1800]

Well I got the news today...to quote my mechanic "there's a fist-sized hole in the engine block". :broken_heart:

So the engine is toast. The head is OK, but the block is beyond repair.

So..hmmm. 2500 miles in the Pacific ocean and I need a new B18 engine block. Any ideas?

Basically I'll start calling around - very unlikely there's a B18 engine anywhere in Hawaii, but I can check. Most likely I'll have to obtain a block and have it shipped over at great expense and then have the entire engine rebuilt. Or perhaps I can find a complete B18 somewhere, but still it will be at least $500 just to ship it here. I'll be looking at $3000-$5000 in repair costs for my $10,000 car most likely.

If anyone knows where I might look for an engine/block here in the US, please pass the info along. Until then, I have a very pretty red paperweight.

I'll keep you posted - really can't get much worse, so I should have better news next time. I guess I'll poke around on Brickboard as well and see what might turn up over there.

I can stick a B20 in there if I found one right?

[Lucien]

Don't forget that the old B18 engines were used as inboard boat engines. They were quite popular. Might be worth checking out the boat yards on Hawaii in case any of them have been laid to rest there?

Good luck.
Luc

[Derek UK]

Brickboard is a good bet. A straight forward cry for help might get an immediate result. A while back there was a thread about an Amazon owner taking his car to the big island and rebuilding it there. Talk to the car clubs, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an engine or two lying around. It's a salty atmosphere there but engines tend to survive.
An honest, used engine from someone like Mike Dudek might not be as expensive as you think. http://www.irollmotors.com/
Good luck.

[agent_strangelove]

The b20 is a 99% bolt up switch from the b18. Depending on what you have at the moment, there may be a radiator/thermostat hose size issue but it's minor.

I have used b18 and b20's about. They might be fine as is but I sell them only as rebuilders. Your best bet might be to bug Phil Singher. Yes, he builds really expensive racing engines but he also builds daily drivers and gets a fair number of stock engines in on trade. He ships all over so it would be easy for him to get you an engine. See vclassics.com or drop him a note at editor@vclassics.com

Chris

[Kauai1800]

Thanks for the good suggestions. As one would expect, I'm on the phone and web today putting out feelers. I'll let you know what I turn up.

[Kauai1800]

OK, well things are looking up. I found a B20 block on a different island (over in Honolulu) that can be rebuilt and shipped over.

My question - can a B18 head fit a B20 block with no mods? I think the answer is yes, but thought I'd ask a much better-informed crowd.

Thanks!

[222s]

Don't quote me on this, but I think the B18 head will fit the B20 block. However my understanding is that this is not a good combination in terms of power, so better to look for a B20 head too. A fuel injected one (from a 144E / 145E, 1800E / ES) would be a good choice, even if still using carbs, as it has bigger valves :)

[asneddon]

From my research, it will fit. There are a couple of things to note.

Most, but not all people say the B18 head has a smaller combustion chamber than the B20 head, so if you put a B18 head on a B20 block you will get a higher compression ratio. I can't find the exact facts or figures for this.

A B20 head will almost always have bigger inlet valves and better exhaust port flow. There were a couple of exceptions, but as they didnt relate to my hardware I cant remember them sorry.

Putting a B20 head on a B18 block reduces the squish area, which is important to cause turbulance in the combustion chamber to produce a more complete burn. Therefore, putting a B18 head on a B20 block 'should' increase the squish area, so should be a good thing.

All up, I think you will loose power due to smaller valves, but gain power due to higher compression and better squish. There is also the risk that if the compression is too much higher because your B18 head has been planned already you might get pinking.

This is all from research I have done looking at putting a B20E head on my B18 block, not from actually doing it yet.

Oh, make sure you use a B20 head gasket. If you buy a head kit with all the valve seals etc, then they wont fit.

I would be interested in knowing the combustion chamber size if you happen to have a B18 head off. If you use water and water-wetter in a big syringe you should be able to fill a chamber up till the water is flush with the mating surface, and post how much water went in. A rough size of the B20E head I have is 45cc (but without water-wetter so the water beaded a little and I didnt have the head 100% level when I did it).

Good luck.

[222s]

This is all from research I have done looking at putting a B20E head on my B18 block, not from actually doing it yet.

The B20E head is the fuel injected one, and has bigger valves than the regular B20 head. Not sure how the regular B18 & B20 heads compare to each other though.

[asneddon]

I've got the valve size data at home. All B20 heads had bigger inlet valves, some also had bigger exhaust valves, and some (later B20E heads) have MUCH bigger inlet valves and bigger exhaust valves.

[Derek UK]

Fitting a B18 head to a B20 block isn't a good idea. Looking for a B20 head might not be so hard as you also have the '68 on 140 range to check out as well as the first year 240's. The whole 240 engine would be good as the internal spec is a bit better and it also has electronic ignition. If you find one and just take the head it's still worthwhile grabbing the complete dizzy and control box. If you can't find one on the islands at least the carriage in from the mainland won't be so bad. A good time to buy a head that's rebuilt and has new valve seats for lead free fuel.
Good luck with it.

[Kauai1800]

I thought I'd post an update on what's happening..I'm sure many of you are having sleepless nights worried about my car.

Well I was able to find a B20 block and head, but to have both rebuilt would be in the $3000 range, and then add in $150 to ship it from Oahu to Kauai, plus another maybe $800-1000 to put it back in, I was deep into $4000+ range, which is just too much for me to spend on this.

So I begrudgingly went back to square one. I decided to look on Craigslist in West Coast Mainland cities near shipping ports. I started in Oakland and within a few minutes of searching I found a B18 w/ SUs described as "running strong". I called the gentleman and he owns an auto dismantling company, and also owns a 1967 P1800. This motor was one he was keeping for himself after a friend had rebuilt the head for an Amazon but never used it. He says it's in great shape and really was set on giving it to someone who needed a complete motor rather than use it for parts. He seemed kinda cranky and old - a good sign that he's telling the truth. I'll know soon enough.

Price was $375, plus $150 to crate it up and deliver it to the dock. Then it will be $140 to ship it from Oakland to Kauai (much less than I had expected). So roughly $675 for the motor, plus $800-1000 to fit it, equals $1600-ish range, which is more in line with my budget.

Also, I really prefer to keep a carbed B18 in there just like the original. On my island (top speed=50 mph), the difference between a B18 and B20 would not be a big deal.

So the motor should be crated up and headed to the dock within a few days and should arrive in Kauai by late June. With a little luck, this might get sorted out within 3 weeks or so.

Thanks again for all the nice information. Some of you guys even helped me over on brickboard too...mahalos plenty!

[amazon69]

save yourself the cash and hire an engine crane...built a block and tackle, whatever..it is very easy to put the motor in yourself....

[Kauai1800]

OK, well the motor is now here on Kauai after a 2800 mile trip from Oakland (this would be like living in London and getting your engine shipped from Iraq).

Happily, it looks to be in decent shape.

Twin Strombergs, not SUs as advertised, but the crank turns and everything looks intact. Head does look rebuilt recently as claimed.

The plan with my mechanic is to swap over all the good bits from my other motor (SUs, newish fuel pump, tricked out air filters, etc) to the new engine and go from there. New gaskets / rear seal and also a Pertronix thing to replace the points. Hopefully the car genie will smile upon me.

One good thing already is that the header and exhaust on the 'new' B18 is in fine shape while my old one was all rusty and leaked in several places.

Hopefully this rueful thread will end with a "happy ending".

[billmckinstry]

Good to hear you have the engine. Have been wondering how you were going.:thumbs_up:

[Derek UK]

Well done! You patience and $$$$$ will be rewarded I hope. Pictures from the operating theatre would be good.............

[Alf ista]

Hope it goes well. I wonder were twin Strombergs fitted to cars in any market? I know the single carb cars were and that the twin carb cars had SU's. I have a pair of twin Strombergs at home in storage. The guy I got them from told me they came off an engine that was used in a boat. A lot of these engines were used in boats, or so I was told.
Hugh.

[classicswede]

Boats had twin peirburg carbs. 140's were fitted with twin strongberg cd175's

[Alf ista]

Ah ok, so the engine is probably from a 140 then...

[classicswede]

I would have thought 140 all exept it is a B18. Strongbergs as far as i'm aware were only fitted to 140's with the B20. My guess is the carbs are late model 140 fitted to the B18. A lot can have happened to an engine over the last 40 + years.

[Kauai1800]

Well if this was a Shakespeare play, this is Act IV...
The "new" engine is now in the car but still not running yet. I didn't speak with the mechanic, so it's not clear to me if the motor has a problem or whether he just hasn't finished putting it together. Seems like it might be worth cruising down to the shop and seeing what the status is. Unfortunately the shop is a huge place, so it's not easy to just pop in.
Who knows? Sometime it might just be better to let them finish and skip hearing about any more problems or drama, yeah?
Anyway, thanks for all the good advice and info. As for the twin Strombergs, I know the B18 came from a 140 and that the owner had rebuilt the head 2k before getting rear ended.

Is there some type of alter I can build to the Gods of Volvo that might get this resolved? Would that be Odin?

[Kauai1800]

Ahh...at long last we are approaching the conclusion of this saga.

The car is 99% done as of today and ready to be picked up tomorrow. I cruised by the shop and we fired the car up and it sounds really good. The engine I bought sight unseen and shipped 2700 miles appears to be in good shape ("in good kit"..is that a proper British idiom?).

Car needs to get the registration and safety check up-to-date, and I need to make sure the insurance is all paid up, but with a bit of luck, I will be out on the road with a smile on my face right about the time everyone in the UK is coming home from the pubs on Friday night/Sat morn. I am so freakin stoked!

I'll be sure to post a final update with pics of the new engine, the car, the smile, and a beach, etc.. :island:

Who knows, I might be able to get a bikini clad girl to pose for a nice screensaver shot or something. :nah:

All the best and thanks for listening.

[Derek UK]

Glad to hear that it's all come together at last. Get the polish out give it a good shine. That'll give you, and the car, another boost.
While you're enjoying the new ride you can then start thinking about the next task on the list............

""in good kit"..is that a proper British idiom? "
Not heard that one. I expect you mean "in good nick".

[Kauai1800]

Well, I wish this thread would come to a simple conclusion in which I was telling you how all was fantastic and that I was out cruising happily in my 1800S, however, reality is never so easy....

Got the car back Friday, pay the shop $2300 (£1350) and it still has "issues"...

First off, the car is still overheating when you park it after it's been running.

Here's the specifics of the symptom...and it's almost exactly like what I've seen before and has been discussed on this forum as the "airlock issue".

Basically the car runs at 180-200F as you drive it, then when you park it, the dash gauge does this odd thing where it "presses" up against the glass tube its in and then RAPIDLY shoots past 212 to 230 and beyond. It stays high for 5 minutes or so, then slowly winds down.

I really really thought is was just air in the system, so we did everything possible...we pulled out the thermostat; we filled it slowly on hill and "burped" the hoses; we reconnected the heater which has been disconnected long ago (still works though completely pointless here in Hawaii). We added a T connection to the heater hose drained/backflushed the new engine and the system. The car has a new water pump. We added Water Wetter®...whew! You'd think that would've have solved the problem but no, the exact symptoms mentioned above persist...rapid temp rise upon stopping the engine. No water in the oil, so head gasket is fine.

My old school neighbor says, "Well that's just how cars from the 60s were..they over heated a bit when you parked 'em...lost a little coolant since they had no expansion tank. It's no big deal".

Can someone with lots of 1800 experience in warmer weather comment on this? I've certainly had the car running before where it did not overheat like this.

Ah, but yes, there's more!

Issue two is more of a tuning thing and the mechanic has offered to help spend more time on setting the idle, the timing, adjusting the SUs, etc. However he claims to be really expert at this type of thing, but even though he had a couple days with the engine in the car, still it came back set all wrong. So not sure what to think...in my mind if you are an expert you should have had all this sorted out before you let me take the car home. The choke and idle are completely wrong now, so I'm thinking that we might do better by following Hayes and doing it ourselves. Also for whatever reason, I had specifically asked for a PERTRONIX distributor to go in, but it didn't, so I've ordered one up and once it arrives we can really sort this all out.
The car seems to be both running too rich and too advanced, so I think this could also be causing the car to run too hot.

Now issue three is really worrisome! While watching me mucking around with the 1800, my aforementioned neighbor pops his head (he's a helicopter pilot/mechanic) under the hood and sees that the giant rubber steering couple has 2 LARGE tears near the bolts. You can see that if this gives way one has zero steering which would not be a good thing on my island with 50mph speed limits and 2 lane highways with no median. So one of these is on order as well. The fact the "expert" mechanic did not notice this even though I asked him to carefully check anything related to safety is a big strike against his credibility.

So drat.

My plan is to get the Pertronix in, adjust the timing/carbs, fix the steering coupler, and then see how we stand on overheating.

At least its running again!

I'd like to post the "happy ending" to this thread soon....:car:

ps...maybe I should pull the old fan and replace it with an electric one?

[Derek UK]

Just taking the overheating issue, yes it's true that heat soak will show on the gauge like that. It's not electrical and just measures the temp of the water at the back of the head. Electric water gauges just click back to zero when you switch off the ignition. Having a bad, or the wrong length, rad cap can make this worse. Having the wrong thermostat wouldn't help either. Don't know if you've checked that. It's a bit different on the Volvo as it has a valve that comes out of the bottom to control a bypass pipe in the head. Have a look at the one in your old engine first to see what I mean before checking the new one. Lots of SU tuning info on Brickboard or, say,
http://www.vclassics.com/archive/stoichio.htm Timing info there too or Ron Kwas will guide you through both here
http://www.sw-em.com/techarticles.htm
Nearly there..................

[Kauai1800]

HURRAH!!

My car is finally working properly after a lot of effort, time and money. And so far it's working pretty well - as well as it ever has, and now I understand the car so much better. In fact now there's nothing in the car that mystifies me, though I'm far from having all the experience so many of the folks on this forum have. Thanks again to the forum for all the help and support.

In the end my neighbor and I discovered the throttle screw set way too high on carb 1, and that was the root of my overheating mentioned in a previous post. Once we got that set, I've been able to drive 100 miles or so with only a couple minor hiccups (I think it might be a tiny bit too lean at the moment). We've now got to really spend an hour or so and sort out balancing the 2 H6 SU carbs. I can tell that one is basically doing everything and the other is practically sucking nil. I've seen/printed out a couple of the guides to balancing SU carbs, but the best one I just found tonight on YouTube (because I think seeing it done is much easier to understand vs reading how it's done ) and that's found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeMfXfjNpw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeMfXfjNpw)

and here's another with more SU carb info (it's specifically for MG, but it's very applicable to 1800s with SUs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Bj_2cZQnc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Bj_2cZQnc)

We put in the Pertronix Ignitor kit and rebuilt the distributor as well, so the ignition should be set for a while.

Now here's irony for you...just today I discovered someone on this tiny island selling a 1972 1800 in good shape for the same $10K I paid for mine. I called him and he said "Yeah I've lived here 20 years and didn't think there was another 1800 on the island, until just yesterday I saw a red one driving by". Of course the red one was mine. lol.
It just funny how life is like that.

So tomorrow balance the carbs and then maybe we'll start thinking about some minilites and an IPD sway bar for the front end.
Here's a pic of Dr. Moriarty at the beach yesterday...

As we say here in Hawaii, Mahalo nui loa (thanks very much) to the Volvo Forum Crew!
Aloha - John

[Derek UK]

Glad you're finally on the home straight. Yes the John Twist videos are an excellent guide. There's lots of them. Haven't been to his YouTube site for a while and was surprised to see that he was shutting up shop. In the clip where he's taking down the shop signs he mentions that he's going off to Honolulu. Maybe he's still around! He's your man.
Another 1800? Two's a club!
Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Universitymotorsltd