Soot Filter driving me crazy...HELP !
 

Dec 2006, I bought a brand new S60 D5, my first ever Volvo and indeed my first Diesel.

Since then the Soot filter has been giving me problems. About 4-5 weeks after purchase I got "soot filter full- see manual", followed a few hrs later with "Engine System, service required" (or something like that) with the Engine going to about 1/2 power or less. Was told this was due to my driving style and that the soot filter need re-generating.

So religiously after that, as soon as I see the SOOT filter message I go for a 20-30 min run, and the message goes away.

Yesterday "soot filter full" came on the display, this is only around 3 weeks after the last full service. It wasn't suitable to go for a run, so went to do it today, but too late I'm back on 1/2 power with the "Engine system" message back on. Tried a 60 miles run, no good. 0-60 is around 25 seconds.

Phoned dealer, and have to book in for regeneration.

I have a couple of questions:-

1) I only do short runs, 6500Miles per year, I told the dealer this at time of purchase, and he could see that from my 3year old 20,000 trade-in. Shouldn't the dealer tell me Volvo diesel engine isn't suitable for me.

2) Having spoke to the service dept today, they have confirmed this is a "thing" with Volvo diesels. Are they really telling me that no modern Volvo deisel car is capable of constant short runs without having to keep going back to the dealer ? Or put another way their diesels exclude certain driving styles. Its not that I'm a slow driver, I love the power and torque of the Engine, its just that I only do a big run every 2-3 months

3) Is there no way I can re-generate this myself, once its went to the "engine system stage". My dealer is 70 miles away, its basically a full day off work.

Its went from being a mild annoyance to seriously considering taking a big hit on the price and getting something else.

Particulate filter
 

Extend my sympathy, found myself in the same situation the dealer staff knowledge was nil (on purchase) until I started to enlighten them with a few operational facts.

There are a number of postings on this subject on the various forums but have concluded that searches no longer appear too specific, can recommend XC 90 forum: Service Issues: XC90 D5 engine DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)

All you can do is mitigate the situation, watch out on the instant mpg read out for a big reduction from normal and then you could use a lower gear to speed things up, bear in mind regeneration will not start until operating temperature is achieved. If it does not complete it carries over to the next time.

I have had regeneration over 5 legs covering 40 miles and effectively lasting 70 min, if you are lucky to be doing 60+ it completes in about 15 min.

The way this works is that regeneration happens on average every tank of fuel , so if you dont have a 20 minute run on the motorway at least once or twice a tankful you will get a message "Soot Filter full"
There are three stages to this
1 What you must do IF this message comes up is to go for a 20 minute motorway run as soon as possible . This will regenerate the filter and all is ok . YOU fix the problem , there will be a fault code stored in the sytem to let the service people know what's been happening .

2 If you ignore the message then it will go into limp mode and this regeneration will have to be done at the dealer on the computer , it takes over half an hour . And 2 codes will be stored to indicate that the first soot message was ignored ...

The third stage , if you ignore the limp mode for long , you will have to buy a new particle filter .

The emissions are very clean on this engine if you look at the tail pipe it will be clean with no soot . The particle filter is how this is achieved and with average driving you won't get a problem . You don't need an additive topping up every 36000 miles OR the particulate filter changing at 72000 miles as the Ford based engine in the s40/V50
Also a motorway trip will do ANY car a lot of good if its mainly used for short runs .....so make a small alteration to your driving and you wont even get the soot message at all .

So I understand this better- I thought this filter from what I've read, is something that needs "regenerating" when it's stopped enough soot - and it does this by burning it off. So sure if you only do short trips, It never gets the chance to clean itself.

what I don't understand from a few comments is the requirement to go on the motorway for a high speed run I presume? Surely just any 20 min drive would be long enough and to get the car up to temperature to do the job.

This time of year the engine takes a good 7 miles to get warm, and run efficiently, anything shorter and yes it will get sooted up quite quickly, and yes this vehicle isn't really suited to short runs - no large engine car is.

vipes

Thank you for the replies, and the very helpful pointer to the XC90 forum.

Just for the record, on the most recent incident (and as I type I am waiting to go to the dealer this friday for manual regeneration), the distance between "soot filter full" and "limp mode" was about 5 miles, and 1 cold start.

Having looked at the manual previously I seem to recall it stating that the soot filter "full" comes on when its at 80% capacity.

Clearly there is little point in having a warning light give you no more than 5 miles warning, when a light comes on its just not convienent sometimes to drive 20 miles "there and then"

And use a decent branded diesel fuel.
On the subject of which, anyone used the Shell V-Power diesel? I've had good experience with the petrol but what about the black stuff?

I usually use Esso diesel, just the normal stuff. With the Esso fuel I was averaging 46-47 mpg Cologne to Newcastle via Channel Tunnel.
On the return journey I tried a tank of V-Power diesel - OK, I know it usually takes two or three tanks for any change to become noticable - the fuel consumption dropped to just under 40mpg with the V-Power on my Euro3 D5.

Same here - when we had overtime available at work then mine got V-Power deisel for about three months solid and the MPG dropped a wee bit. Am now back on normal Shell deisel and no appreciable difference in performance. :thumbs_up:

I've just got this message for the first time driving home tonight so Googled to see what it meant and found this site and this thread.

What confuses me is that I do a LOT of motorway driving regulalry and had in fact just come off a motorway after a clear drive home of about an hour. I've had the car just over three years (It had it's first MOT last month) and have never seen this message before.

I can't have the car go wrong this weekend as I'm going on holiday really early on Monday morning and have so much to do beforehand and no time at all over the weekend, and I have to drive to the airport on the morning of my flight, leaving the car there while I'm away - the thought of it breaking down and me missing my flight is very worrying.

I'm about to go out now for a drive as Clan has recommended but I am worried that it will not clear it as I had been motorway driving anyway !!!

The regeneration process can take about 20 minutes it needs sustained higher rpm to do the job .

high rpm being what 3-4k cuz most legal moterway driving in 6th wont see it above 2.5k or would 2.5k be enough???

well you could leave it in 3rd or 4th ! if you drive it gently it wont often go over 2000 rpm so anything over 3000 i would say ...

that is asuming your running manual or geartronic what about auto?

mind you would be a good excuse for getting pulled doing 120 sorry officer i had to clean my soot filter

geartronic is auto , the same box with some manual intervention but never woth the £1200 for a lever and software tweek . you can do almost the same with the L position ..

Well I drove about 20 mins down the M6 and then the same back up again and it doesn't seem to have had any effect at all, I still have the message and after I had stppped briefly at a services on the way back up it seems to have lost power - it was still driving and was able to reach motorway speeds but there was definitely nowhere near as much acceleration as there should have been. I've now got the Engine System Service message as well.

I've done approximately 800 miles of motorway driving this week and am confused as to why it's suddenly decided to do it.

It's going to completely screw up my weekend, in which I already didn't have enough time to get everything done :(

thanks spmurugs for the link to this.

I believe none of the above posters lost 100% power (and unable to restart engine) so will look further, and advise when the "fix" is known.

thanks, David

I can't help wondering what you do if you're over a hundred miles from a motorway and have mostly single track roads to get to one. Like when I'm on holiday.

Dosn't sound like cars with a filter are suitable for all round use!

Shouldn't be that difficult to keep the revs above 2K.
OK, it won't get as hot as quickly in lower gears because the engine's not having to work hard at lower mph - but a heavy right foot from a standing start up to high revs in 2nd on a cyclic basis should achieve the requisite temp.

run it for at least 20 mins in a lower manually selected gear at 3500 revs or above every 300 miles or so. The AA mechanics are having this problem with all makes of car the Dpf system is useless.

Does anyone know if using low soot fuels like shell vpower and bp ultimate help in this matter ?

That's never going to be my style I'm afraid.

What about if you're on a motorway and there's and jam and you have to spend 2 hours stuck in traffic. It's happened to me more than once. I spent over 2 hours on the Chiswick roundabout gridlocked some years ago. Add limp mode and a visit to a dealer to fix it. It's a recipe for going postal methinks.

being blunt here its a Very good reason Not to buy Any "new" diesel engined one.
if its "soots up" and limps, then its clearly Not fit for the purpose > to transport you A-B.
all this "But you need...." , no a car is a Car it Should do what YOU require it to do , ie A-B , not "but you have do drive like...."

buy a petrol ,or more to the point return these affected cars To the dealer ,as they are clearly unfit for the purpose and in far too many circumstances and situations plain Dangerous. make volvo swap them for petrol engined ones.

Another discussion mentions a recall in which there is a software change to the regeneration program for the particle filter http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=95323. Has your vehicle been recalled? If not, you should ask the dealer about this.

As I understand it the main point of this recall is rise in the engine oil level due to diesel fuel getting into the oil, but even if you have not had a rise in oil level it's possible that the revised regeneration program may be a benefit to the problem the DPF getting sooted up when it is driven on a lot of short trips.

I think I'd have turned my engine off.
The low-gear high-rev cycle's only for when the filter warning shows up.

Trouble is you had to inch (literally) forward every five minuets and I was listening to a CD to keep sane.

Given the level of buy-backs of mis-sold DPF cars across
all manufacturers; are Ford thinking the problem is unfixable and considering crushing them?
I'm told that the dealers have irate customers looking at their fully paid-for car through
the compound fence - and they are not even allowed to let them sit in
it.



extract from honest john thread refers to ford kuga

Outside the box thinking....
 

Or just connecting some dots incorrectly, but:

I just read through this thread after checking out a thread on another D5 with a smoky exhaust. I'm wondering if the DPF in Euro 4 and later engines can be masking so some degree another problem - perhaps excessive smoking from a ruptured Intercooler, or IC piping, or some other breathing problem. I guess also a faulty or out of spec MAF for example could also cause poor combustion and excess soot.

Just a thought.

Andy

MY10 models have the software upgrade at manufacture. I have read that the bio fuel component in standard diesel (5-8 %) gets into the sump and raises the oil level. Shell V-power uses liquified gas rather than bio diesel and burns cleaner so the DPF does not build up soot and require regeneration.
Thats my understanding so far, I am using V-power all the time now will report back on the results in the future.

i just drive mine fast...all the time :P except when its cold lol never had any of these silly warning messages, maybe it should say- i need some abuse or i will self destruct lol "hammer me or die" lmao!
mines EulV facelift btw not the blue prefacelift as my avatar suggests

Here's the story as I understand it. I don't think biodiesel causes extra soot over petroleum diesel.

The claim by Volvo was that some diesel at the ordinary pump contains 5 - 8 % biodiesel, but this seems unsupported by any evidence. I don't see any reason why oil companies would add any biodiesel to their fuel. Biodiesel costs more than petroleum diesel and is not a product of the oil companies. And if the retail sellers of fuel would add biodiesel, wouldn't they have to report this to regulatory authorities and to the consumer? In the US petrol pumps for motor cars state that the fuel may contain up to 10 % ethanol. By contrast diesel pumps do not state anything about the possible presence of biodiesel.

In the US one has to go to identified purveyors of biodiesel to get either pure biodiesel or biodiesel mixed with petroleum diesel. Some people add biodiesel to their fuel tank themselves in the belief it would be a benefit to the environment. And biodiesel mixes up to 10 % or so are apparently fine in any modern diesel unless the fuel system uses an extra delivery of fuel into the cylinders to raise exhaust temperatures to regenerate a DPF.

Here is the problem as I understand it. There are two ways to introduce extra fuel into the exhaust stream to raise the exhaust temperature:

(1) Use a separate injector located in the exhaust manifold (or pipe?) to introduce extra fuel into the exhaust stream. This system is used on certain large diesel commercial engines and allows the use of biodiesel mixes even with a DPF.

(2) Program the fuel system to use the regular injectors to give an extra squirt of fuel into the cylinders during the exhaust stroke (during the DPF regeneration cycle only). This mixes with the exhaust gasses and is pushed out by the piston as it expells the exhaust gasses. But after the power stroke the insides of the cylinders are relatively cool and if fuel containing biodiesel is sprayed into the cylinder, the biodiesel (which is less volatile than petroleum diesel) condenses to or remains a liquid on the cylinder walls. The petroleum diesel is volatile enough to be gasified and get swept out the exhaust valves.

But as the piston advances the liquid film of biodiesel on the cylinder wall is forced past the compression and oil rings and gets into the sump. I don't have it straight whether this is thought to occur on the exhaust stroke or on the subsequent compression stroke.

So over time the oil in the sump gets contaminated with fuel and the oil level in the sump rises to a level significantly above the max. It can supposedly rise so high that the sump oil begins to squeeze by the rings and thereby give rise to a runaway diesel where the engine is fueled through the sump, speeds uncontrolled to high power output and self destruction.

governments are pressuring oil companies to blend bio diesel with mineral diesel as they subsidise the growing of bio fuels.

I dont think volvo are lying about the bio diesel content in most fuel.
the argument is that shell V-power contains Liquified gas which has a far lower soot output than mineral diesel.
The bio diesel does its damage by finding its way into the sump and causes oil levels to rise and will not evaporate like mineral diesel fuels.

below is just one example of so many threads where bio diesel is considered to be present in most diesel fuel.
I shall definately be sticking with v-power the lower soot output alone must be better for the engine / soot filter apart from avoiding build up of bio fuel in the sump.

http://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/



I noticed the same thing on Thursday night when I filled up, but even though V power was 3p more I filled up with that, and what a difference it feels more responsive as if I have gained another 10BHP, the proof was in the mileage 200 miles for a quarter of a tank full to the first quarter mark, in town running :thumbup: and less gear changing

I thought about it when I saw the 7% and something stuck in my mind that Bio was not good for VW engines, something to do with the pump not being lubricated
This post has been edited by skippy41: 07 February 2010 - 16:21


joined:18-January 06
Posted 07 February 2010 - 23:01
I'd guess it's so they can say we told you so at the pump should you have any problems in the future.

since rang shell and found that v_power does in fact contain bio diesel its the law apparently.

Oh well will just have to change the oil reguarly what a pain.

if manufacturers do not fix this problem I think there will be a mass market for disabling DPFs. I would far prefer it if motor manufacturers found a fix but 3- 5 years on there is no fix in sight. I would think that the cost of running back to the manufacturers dealer for new DPFs / engines / turbos (the two latter items lubricated with what is effectively vegetable oil) every few thousand miles would be unacceptably expensive to the majority of owners.
Volvo claim it is the bio diesel (vegetable oil) component which is getting into the sump which will not evaporate out.
With the expensive 0w-30 oil volvo spec for the engine it is laughable that they refuse to change the oil when it has been diluted with vegetable oil.
It is now a legal requirement that all diesel fuel has to contain 7% bio fuel.
The DPF engines were designed before this was a legal requirement.
The excess fuel getting into the sump was supposed to evaporate before causing problem. Bio fuel (vegetable oil) does not evaporate. Which is why we now are having this problem.
So the EU created the problem by insisting on DPFs being fitted to diesel engines and the UK government completed the stitch up by insisting on a 7% bio fuel component.
We have been stitched up good and proper the EU and UK legislators and the motor manufacturers.
End of Rant

I worked for the company (johnson matthey) that coated the bare substrates to produce your catalytic (petrol) soot (diesel) filter you use in your volvo. The soot filter is unlike the catalytic converter in the sence you can see thru your catalytic filter with numerious chambers of max 0.7m2 but not the soot filter. The soot filter forces the burnt carbon thru the actual filter (you cannot see thru it) and retain the carbon/gunk and releases the remaining gasses. The soot filter is reliant on a flash of heat to burn off the exess carbon (or regenerated if you wish) and clean the filter out. This will happen however many times during a certain time period but is relaint on reading pressure build up combined with heat to clear and re-start the procedure. On cold starts you produce an emence amount of soot and that is the big problem combined with the short journeys and you can see where we are going with this??
Solution: As someone has mentioned, you have to give the thing a good blast from time to time to generate the heat and clear the filter. If you persistantly keep blocking the filter, the thing WILL STOP WORKING and you WILL HAVE TO REPLACE IT. In theory the system works a charm, in practice , it's crap and costly. It could and possibly might be an option to remove the thing and replace it with a straight thru section which will have to be replaced on every MOT but might work out a dam-side cheaper (Please note the "might work" section...)

I think removal involves a remap and significant alteration. Swapping back and forth at MOT time is not going to be an option.
The MOT though does not differentiate between DPF diesels and older diesels. The measurements are the same so that may not be a problem. As for the legality of removal is concerned I have no idea. Not an issue for me yet as I have over 2 years warranty to go.
I still think there will be aftermarket conversions available in the future. This technology is not sound.
When manufacturers design the next generation diesel engines it will be sorted. My suspicion is that early DPFs will probably always be a bit of a compromise where frequent oil changes and forced regeneration are required.
But I hope to be proved wrong by others on this forum.
My average speed has been 23mpg and average fuel consumption 23.5 mpg.
It would be interesting to hear these figures from owners who have no problems at all.

23.5 mpg for a diesel!!! My petrol 2.4 gives me 27.8 combined..... Thats fairly heavy going but I suppose with the AWD and a sizeable body

My D5 gives 40.1 mpg combined but I don't have the soot filter. I think chunderground has a new engine so it's still tight I would guess. A D5 needs about 50,000 miles to loosen up properly.

Yes I think the DPF uses more fuel pushing the exhaust gases through that filter. Also it then goes into a regeneration cycle to clear the filter of soot which again uses a lot of fuel.
I have accepted the higher than expected running costs (including more frequent oil changes) cos I just love it and still want to keep it long term.
I recently swapped to a low soot fuel and fuel ave on readout has increased to 25 mpg on display since that reset ( only 250 miles ago )

It seems from some earlier posts that there are still some misunderstandings about the DPF regeneration process.

All diesels produce soot at a rate corresponding to the rate at which they burn fuel. This happens whether you are storming down the motorway or tootling around town. Faulty and cold engines can produce soot at a higher rate. This soot builds up in the DPF (when fitted) which is a soot box and gradually starts to block it.

When the engine senses this, which is about once every tank full of fuel or 400 miles, it starts the 'regeneration' process which pumps neat diesel into the soot box (via the exhaust stroke) to create a small fire there to burn the soot off. This might take 5-10 minutes or so and is not normally noticeable although if you are driving at a steady speed on the flat you might notice the instant fuel consumption reading drop down.

If you park or hit traffic congestion before the burn off process is completed it stops and restarts later once the engine is hot again. This means you could have just completed a long fast run but still left the regeneration process in limbo. More soot accumulates while the engine is next coming up to temperature.

If your normal driving pattern is long and fast runs the failed regeneration will probably complete later next time without problem. If you only go for shortish runs after the suspended/failed regeneration, soot continues to build up until, at about 80% capacity of the soot box (DPF), you get visual warnings.

If you do not then soon take the car for a longish run (20 minutes after engine gets hot) at high revs (2500-3500) then soot will not be completely burnt off and so the engine will trigger the next regeneration cycle earlier than expected. This cycle of operation near the edge of regeneration can go on and on with short distance driving patterns.

If you do NOT take the car for a high rev run (drop to a low gear or use 'L' if automatic to keep speed down), when the soot box is about 90% full, the engine will go into limp home mode and you are in for a service visit.

You can see from the above that long high speed runs when the regeneration process has not yet been kicked off by the engine management software doesn't help avoid the problem. they are only needed when the regeneration has started.

If you are wondering about overall fuel economy when you have to blast around to clear the DPF of soot when you bought a diesel to get good economy, well, you are not alone! It is not just Volvo who have the problem.

On a separate issue, the recent Volvo recall for software update applied to my V70 2008 D5 185 Geartronic seems to have fixed the rising oil level problem for me. Previously the oil level went up 20+ mm on the dipstick in less that 2000 miles but has since remained steady after 1600 further miles post software update.

Now waiting to see whether the DPF regeneration still works properly when using less fuel for the regeneration to avoid it going into the sump.

What WOULD have been useful in the SW update would have been a message to show an aborted regen cycle, together with a tally for previous abortions.
Then at least the user knows exactly how urgent the situation is.
How difficult can that be ?
Or is it actually perfectly simple but substantially less profitable than a dealership regen costing £$hedloads ?

Hi Dynosaur

I agree with you absolutely about the software possibly flagging up the warning of failed DPF regens. Brilliant idea! Can't believe it can't be done given all the other 'messages' that can appear on the display and the ability of the system to store other fault codes.

I think it should be suggested to them.

Not sure about the conspiracy theory though (sending owners to dealers for profitable emergency regens) as its a pain for the dealers (it disrupts their schedules) and the PR ain't good either!