From XC60 to Porsche Macan or BMW X3?
 

Thoughts?

Wisdom comes from the multitude of counsellors, as they say....

Mrs A and I are beginning to think about life after the turtle. We're off to the Porsche & BMW dealerships in Edinburgh on Saturday.

Option 1: Porsche Macan Diesel S (V6 twin turbo 3.0 with double clutch PDK auto box). Mrs A says it ain't no thing of beauty, which might prove difficult to overcome.

Option 2: BMW X3 x-line 3.0d auto. Issue here is the upcoming revised 2017 model that can't yet be seen anywhere online or in the flesh. There's no way we're buying another car without test driving the exact engine spec etc - did that on the VEA D4 current XC60, results documented extensively elsewhere on this forum in a thread now buried in the mists of time.

Had briefly considered an XC60 D5 AWD but the model hasn't long to go and thereafter we can kiss goodbye to anything other than the soundtrack and experience of anything other than 4cyl turbos.

All opinion and feedback gratefully received. I'll update this thread after Saturday's two test drives and dealer experiences.

Arianne

Considering your time-scale, and also the waiting list for the Macan and the X3, you might also consider the Jaguar F-Pace. Not yet in the dealers, but the two 'first impressions' appeared in Autocar and Autoexpress last week. I only glanced at them, but they seemed positive.
There will also be a new Q5 soon. You should put this on your shortlist (which I have now doubled for you) !
GLC would be a no-no for me only because there ain't no spare wheel.

Your wife clearly has style and I whole heartedly agree with her view on the Porsche, I might go further and suggest it is ugly. The issue with X3 is that it is small, certainly compared to the XC60 though the engines are streets ahead of any Volvo engine though I have history with BMW engines similar to your XC60 experience which would make it difficult for me to ever recommend a BMW to anyone.

Have you thought about Lexus? The hybrid is very tempting.

Do you really want to go for a new model from any brand and become a beta tester again? I would only go for something that has been out for at least a year so you have some idea of what you are getting into if I were you.

Nigel, I had hoped the F-pace would be a serious contender but unless I want to be paying a price of £51k+ then I am stuck with the 4cyl Ingenium engine which seems suspiciously similar to the VEA in our Volvo. No discounts (true too of the Porsche) on the Jaguar.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Arianne

It's already been tested, in the Discovery Sport and Evoque bodies.

Porcshe fugly Volkswagen
BMW well, I wouldn't pee on a BMW if it was on fire, unless I had petrol for pee.

Discounts on the F-Pace won't be long in coming. I understand, as an ex-XF owner still monitoring the relevant forum, that the new XE and XF are already being offered at significant discounts. And these are cars which Autocar places as class leaders. There's so much over capacity in the premium sector that prices can't hold up for all of them. Perhaps Porsche will be immune but only by restricting production. If you can wait, perhaps you should. Even PCP buyers won't be unaffected since residual values will fall leaving no equity from GMFV.

And I gather from what I have heard that there are some problems with it in the Discovery Sport.

I would definitely want to be using a very well established engine.

The Porsche ,, I could live with.

The Ingenium engine in the Discovery Sport is very weak compared to the old SD4 as discovered in a back to back drive, for me the seats are uncomfortable as well.

X3 3.0D is a lovely engine but a recent test drive showed it to be thirsty, also I found the foot well cramped and offset in the X3. No spare wheel either.

I am currently tempted by the GLC very good CO2s for tax (129) quiet engine and nice to drive. Price is not too bad but servicing & insurance & warranty are ridiculously expensive and again no spare wheel. Also an attitude problem whereby they do not offer headlamp washers because they are not required with LED lights.

I still fancy buying the last of the 5's with better spec than this one.

The next-generation Touareg is due in 2017. Not as 'trendy' but solid as a rock and slightly more unusual than the ubiquitous X3. Based upon the (new) Q7 platform but 'better value', and you could still afford a few interesting options. Bullet-proof 3-litre 6-cylinder chain cam engine. Might be too large however.

New Tiguan is much larger and nicer looking than first gen. Boot same as X3 according to reports. Higher power diesels 178 and 220(?) should also be good. Then there's the new skoda Kodiak which will be 4.7m long so plenty of room if you get past the badge. GLC 250d got good recent report on what car too. Disco sport needs probs sorting first according to it's forum but it's growing on me. X3 shape a little odd. Macan very small compared to xc60. Too many choices..hmm F Pace.......

Who made the V6 engine fitted in the Discovery / Range Rover Sport? Their pair of EGR valves are a know problem with the engine.

The Ingenium engines do use urea injection into the exhaust. Would that reduce issues with the EGR?

Can get new shape 2nd hand range rover for £50k

But out of the bmw n porsche, I'd choose the porsche any day.
Think it's a great looking car.

The Jaguar 3 litre engine is a Ford AJD-V6/PSA DT17, according to Wikipedia.

As far as I know the configurator for the new Tiguan for Germany was just launched and I was disappointed to see that the only diesel engine available is the same old 4cyl 2.0 TDI at 150PS. Compared to the outgoing model, not that different from the outside either. However, they seem to have definitely fixed the boot problem.

To each his own taste and preference of course, but I believe the exterior of the Macan is great. The interior is nowhere near the elegance of the exterior. If I could afford the GTS, I wouldn't mind the interior either :)

My wife and I both loved the new XC90 to be honest, if we were in the market now; it would be our first pick.

Reading with interest as also looking for something in the same category (although the Macan isnt on my list as too expensive for me!)

I had an XC60 as a company car for a few months and enjoyed it apart from fact it was a manual. A 5 cylinder auto would be good but I am assuming the auto is still 6 speed rather than new 8 speed?

I like the X3 but mainly for the engine and not the interior.

I like the Disco 4 but way bigger than I need or want. The Disco Sport does nothing for me and should be available with a 6 cylinder diesel given the prices they charge.

The F pace looks promising but at 51k for a 6 cylinder and no deals to start with I would need to wait a while....

Q5 is old model so wont have that one. Tiguan doesnt appeal and Toureg is too big....as is Q7.

Xc90 too big and only 4 cylinder....

Dont think there is anything that really hits the spot and I wont spend north of £40k unless it is really what I want...

I'd try get the Porsche or better still the Cayenne.

Porsche, Porsche, Porsche, Porsche.

After your experiences with the turtle I would go with something utterly reliable and something people will not hate you in. Porsche every day. Will keep its value well also. Only issue may be parts / servicing costs.

Another alternative. Have you thought of the Lexus RX? Bomb proof and again, you will not be disliked in it.

I looked at the Macon and Lexus NX as my final 3.
The Macon is underwhelming in every way and starting at 46K for the S (43K for the base) it's way too expensive, it gets even more frightening when you do a like for like spec to a SE Lux Nav...I gave up at 50k

I would probably have gone for the Lexus NX but my friend liked it so much he bought one for his wife so that killed that idea off.

Medium size SUV's are a difficult choice for the next couple of years with new model changes. If it wasn't the last chance to have a D5 before it's gone I would have gone with another coupe on this change.

Good luck with your options :-)

What car saying 178 and 218 bhp 2 litre diesels available. Have to differ on shape, to me it's nothing like the old rounded back shape, very much like the new toureg..

Thanks for the replies folks. So the BMW dealer doesn't have an X3 with the engine and gearbox, they're offering an X5 with the engine and an X3 with the other spec. Oh well, it's a start. Personally I am drawn to the Macan at this stage. But we will see. Best wishes. Arianne

When I was shortlisting, the Q5, X3 and XC60 all came out within about a thousand of each other for a similar spec / option selections. Volvo discounts are around 10% better than Audi or BMW, so this needs to be factored in. Certainly Porsche base price, options and minimal discounts will push up the price, probably bringing it into line with the F-Pace. Depending what you are looking for, there will always be certain 'sweet spots' on specs and options for all the premium manufacturers. For me, the XC60 spec / option I chose does represent that 'sweet spot'. The test drive is critical, and not just a short one. It has to be in the engine, transmission, suspension and tyre specification you will choose. If the BMW dealer can't deliver a test drive in what you want, then walk away. I did the same from three Volvo dealerships before I found one who understood what I was looking for and sorted out the necessary test drive. They got the business.

Agree. Very good thread. I was wondering what I'd choose.
GLC...not convinced on looks, sat in one and not keen on the iPad stuck on dash.
XC90....very nice, loved the seats in the inscription model ..not sure on a 4 cylinder only option.
X3....not keen on BMWs
Audi Q5....new model coming out.
Porsche Macan...wow. OK it's expensive with no discounts but also has great residuals.
Xc60. ..still love my car but new one on the horizon.

Star is the Range Rover......but I can't afford one.



So I'll stick with what I have as it is as my stepfather used to say...the best car is one that us laid for :D

Spoke the Mrs A last night about the position with the BMW dealer. The result is that we will cancel the appointment because there really is no point driving an X5 with the engine/gearbox combo as a proxy for the smaller and lighter X3. I have asked them if they have a used model with the right engine and gearbox on an X3 but I have yet to hear back from them.

I accept that the Porsche will be more expensive but, even though the residuals are becoming a bit softer, the model holds its value well and Porsche are unlikely to chase volume. We have choices about how to finance this next car. One option is to use cash from savings (we have plenty of liquidity) although I prefer the thought of avoiding such a large drawdown. Another is PCP because the residuals are so strong on the Macan, although the dealer PCP is 7.81% and there's just no way I am accepting that. Halifax have a new PCP product on the market at 4.2% which is enticing. Or I could compromise and put a large deposit down and buy the car through finance on the balance, knowing that it will be easy to sell after 3-4yrs (it's a Macan after all!).

Of course, all of this depends upon us liking it and tomorrow will be just the beginning. If we are interested then we will take our time which is why we've started looking now. I understand Porsche provide a track day experience at Silverstone so that you can learn how to drive the thing if you place an order!

I also have grown to like the XC90 but I just cannot get my head around a 4cyl VEA engine in this size of car. I have come to learn the DNA of the VEA unit - it's competent, enjoyable but just lacks that certain something which a 5cyl or 6cyl unit might provide.

I have really struggled to settle on a replacement for our current car. I thought the f-pace might be the answer. When I have compared the lifetime cost & likely ownership experience of the Macan alongside the f-pace it may be that the Jaguar comes back into play?

Oh well, we're going to enjoy the experience as for us it's all part of the fun. I'll update you guys after the test drive.

Great banter folks, always a pleasure to chat!

Arianne

I only have a view on the X3 and my thoughts are that it is the ugly duckling between the X1 and X5. The front headlights looks strange as does the rear light cluster.

If they style he next one like a bigger version of the new X1, they'll be onto a winner. I almost went down the X1 route, but possibly just a bit too small.

Don't rule out the Audi SQ5....awesome engine...

Don't like the back of the Macan, F-Pace looks spot on to me. Renderings for new Q5 look nice as well

Tesla Model X when available to test?, they are also guaranteeing their residuals. Stonking performance if you have time for a cuppa every 200-300 miles, Supercharge in 30mins, apparently!

The new XC90 is surprisingly capable off road. Look at this video about 7 minuets in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY91fZ--Tao

Just been on the Porsche website. Not easy to find a brochure download (had to use Google). Very seductive. Then I looked for a price list to download but even Google failed to find one, so I had to use the configurator. Strange how they don't seem to want to publish this.
As a quick comparison, I selected those options I have and (OK, it is a 3-litre, AWD and automatic) and it came out the north side of £54k (if I added the power passenger seat, that's part of a package that is a further £1000 !). Around £10k over the LIST price of my XC60 (remember no discounts with Porsche).
A similar exercise with a Q5 or X3 brings in a price quite close to the XC60.
The Macan looks very nice, and gets some rather good reviews. The problem for me (as I like lots of toys) would be a battle with the options list. As pointed out above, it would need to be compared with the SQ5 which is very fast. The new Q5 could be tough competition when it arrives especially as it will be on a newer platform than the (currently shared) Macan.

I also feel the Porsche is fugly....but not been on the inside, which is of course the view YOU would have most often!

Have to say, perhaps because I haven't suffered the turtle, I cannot see any alternative that I would prefer today.
~27K miles in, long runs to Les Arcs, many motorway miles under the luxury of the DSP, family, jukebox and radio for company, stonking price compared with all the ones you & others mention, I would do this all again!
I am quite taken by the XC90, but it is too big for our needs...

I will certainly hold ours for another year or two (hey, 5 years servicing package here).

Other than "wanting a change" - if you had not suffered the turtle pain (& I know how that was for you, so understand if that is the only reason!), would you still want to move from the XC60?

The new XC60 (but we don't know exactly when it will hit the UK showrooms) with the D5 VEA (which surely they must have 100% sorted by then) must be up there on any premium SUV shortlist. Without getting into the debate on the absence of a 5/6 cylinder in future Volvo cars, a 225bhp / 470Nm torque VEA in an XC60 body will be quite adequate for most drivers. Certainly as good as any of the competitor 2-litre offerings. For the few who seek more, then there are the alternatives already discussed. I suppose it all comes down to when Arianne wants to change, and there will 'always be something new round the corner'.

Haven't seen any issues with the VEA D5 posted on the new XC90 forum yet.:thumbs_up:

Test drive outcome...
 

What a day.... we set off in truly blizzard conditions from the Central Scottish Borders for Edinburgh and experienced near white-out conditions over Soutra on the A68. Got there though!

First up: the Porsche Macan. I have never experienced a drive quite like the Macan. The engine is phenomenal, the PDK gearbox changes are seamless such that you only know it's occurred by the engine note and the suspension defies the laws of an SUV. Cabin felt a bit 'old-school' with lots of buttons and a somewhat old-fashioned central display but the build quality could not be faulted. The Bose sound system is an audiophiles dream. Front seat passengers do better than those in the rear but the back is still a nice place to be. The cabin is hushed, perhaps not as much as I had expected, and the rear seat passengers can pick up tyre noise from the rear wheel arches. The boot is, without doubt, smaller than the XC60. Is this the best SUV for driving experience? I have a feeling it is. Those journalists are not wrong.

But here's the problem. You know what I am going to say...... This all comes at an eye watering price. The entry for the V6 3.0 Macan diesel S is about £46k. Our original plan was to keep things simple and add minimal essential options - adaptive suspension perhaps. But having seen the car, driven it and spoken with the dealer..... it's clear to us that one needs to add more in order to ensure that it doesn't feel all wrong. For example, Mrs A made no secret of the fact that, for her, the Macan just doesn't look pretty. She doesn't like the headlights or the 18" wheels. We can resolve that to some extent by adding the 'smoked' headlamp units to blend with the dark grey (£600 optional extra) paintwork. But to get these headlamps they have to be bi-xenon and that little package adds an extra £1,350. The wheels are similar since the cheapest 20" rims add another £1,450. Here's where we ended up in addition to the foregoing:

* privacy glass £320
* Bose sound £800 (essential for me as an audiophile)
* roof rails £350 (only factory fit and needed because a roofbox will be essential)
* panoramic roof £1,100 (considered essential for resale and you know why when you've sat in a Macan with black upholstery)
* heated front seats £300

Kerching..... £53,500 before tax & delivery. No discounts on anything. It's also worth explaining that this specification means that the interior will not include leather seats, only alacantra. No satnav, no memory on the driver's seat etc. Resale in three years is £26k. Can I justify this to myself? £27.5k over three years.

Meanwhile, Mrs A has explained that it will be three years in which she won't glance out of the window and swoon for the car sitting there. All credit to SWMBO, she genuinely said she wouldn't stand in my way if I wanted the Porsche but that three years is all her sweet eyes could bear looking at the Macan's exterior. Ignoring Mrs A's eyes for a moment, the thought of owning a Porsche out of warranty is somewhat anxiety inducing!

So we left the dealership and I got back into my XC60 to drive off for lunch somewhere. It was only while we were eating lunch that it dawned on me that I hadn't given the thought of being in the XC60 a second thought after getting out of the Porsche Macan. That taught me something important.... the Macan is very good but the law of diminishing returns applies here. For every extra £'000 we're investing in a better car the percentage improvement becomes less and less. The Macan didn't blow us away in the way we had hoped, including my 23 year old son who drives our Audi TT.

My heart said 'yes' but that was mainly because of the Porsche badge, not because of the Macan's beauty or because it was a compelling proposition. It took me until 7pm in the evening for the head and heart to become reconciled.

I agree with the journalists that the Macan is probably the best compact SUV but not when the price is factored back into the assessment. It is only the best in absolute terms of performance alone.

And so we come to the dowdy BMW X3: It was with a heavy heart that we trundled off along the City Bypass to the 'Luxury Car Village' which is the home of Eastern BMW outside Edinburgh. After visiting the Porsche dealership in the morning, sited alongside the Aston Martin and Ferrari dealerships, the term 'luxury' to describe the home of the BMW, Lexus and Toyota dealerships didn't quite have the same resonance as it might have done on another day.

Entering the dealership was a very different experience from the Porsche boys. Not quite as heartless and efficient as Edinburgh Audi but clearly Germanic.

A few days earlier the dealer was offering us an X5 with the 30d & auto box because they couldn't locate the engine combo in the X3. I told them that, unless they found an X3 with the right engine & gearbox combo the meeting was to be cancelled. Voila! Car located and available for us upon arrival!

Our test drive was to check four things: the engine, the auto box, steering and the suspension. We have no plans to buy the current X3 which is to be replaced later this year / early 2017. This was a 65 plate car with 4k on the clock.

Our experience then? The engine was great. It's just as eager as the Porsche with a decent note when you really let it loose. The car can be a comfortable cruiser but, at the flick of a switch, it'll change the damper settings, throttle response, gear settings and steering to become quite a beast. The gear changes are not as smooth as the Porsche but by auto standards still very good with almost no delay and a smooth action. Steering, suspension and road noise were all absolutely fine. The handling on this car and its performance are clearly superior to the Volvo XC60 D5 polestar AWD geartronic demonstrators that Clelands let us borrow two years ago. Really, it's that different!

The financials are streets better than the Porsche Macan. And that's because the list price can be completely ignored with BMW offering discounts of around 10% if I worked them hard on this type of car and price point. The BMW comes with most of the stuff you want already included in the package. Just as an example, any paint colour.... no extra charge. Leather is standard on the M-Sport trim etc.

But Mrs A didn't like the look of the X3 either. Too boxy on the side profile and with odd angles at the front and rear. Hmm! Maybe the 2017 X3 will resolve that, who knows since there are no clear pictures yet with all the photos showing that confusing wrap over the paintwork of the new cars).

Conclusion
Well, it won't be a Porsche Macan. Too expensive and not much of a looker (or plain ugly according to Mrs A).

It probably won't be a BMW X3 either. It's definitely affordable but Mrs A doesn't like the look of that one either and, let's be honest, who gives an X3 a second look on the road?

We had a nice day, it made a change and the three of us had some fun. Both dealers were good to us, albeit very different. Are we any further forward? Yes, but not by much. We know it's not going to be either a Macan or X3. But we have lots and lots of time (we're targeting a March 2017 plate). I won't be holding onto our XC60 as, even though the turtle has gone into hibernation, it's just not the driver's car I thought I was buying (I know, I know....I was a twot buying the VEA D4 from the reviews and technical sheet rather than wait until the new cars made it to the UK for a test drive). The engine is not quite what I had hoped (I hanker after 5cyl D5 performance), I now know that AWD is better (only by a small margin but it's a noticeable margin nonetheless) and the manual gearbox just isn't good enough.

For the price, as someone else has already said on this thread, the XC60 is good value - no denying that, for sure. But I am seeking that bit more and I am prepared to pay a bit more for it. The Jaguar f-pace isn't that car either - the V6 starts at £51k before any options and there's no discounts there either - and no prospect for most of 2016 of that changing I think.

The search continues. Have a good week people and thanks again for the 'community's' help.

Arianne

PS. Health warning... Mrs A spotted a 30d M-Sport BMW X4 in the showroom. She likes the look, what is the X4 all about!

Thanks, nice summary....and perhaps tells us all that there is no perfect motor!

Maybe by then the new XC60 will be upon us......or maybe you are too tainted to ever consider another :(

Have you tried http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/chooser/ to see what it comes up with? Put 3 of 4 things in, and let us know what it picks for you ;-)

....... and the answer came back as: Mercedes GLE :(

No thanks.

.... the search continues. Arianne

Why not try the latest version of the XC60 D5 AWD? It won't be the same as the one you drove 2 years ago. I Would have though it worth a test drive if only to rule it out.

Really enjoying your right ups, partly because I am in a similar boat (but with less money!) and partly because your writing style is great.

I dont have the "assistance" of a wife with an opinion on things (for the first time for 30 years and I am missing it!) but I am doing a really good job of coming up with her criticisms on her behalf.

I will probably end up with an estate instead (with 4WD) and forego the higher driving position to get a few more options. New A4 (3.0 TDi Quattro) is a contender....

Ian