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Can you strip out the LPG to make way for CNG?
I'm new to Bi-fuel Volvos and was initially attracted to a V70 by Volvo being the only brand selling CNG cars, and 'sides, I like them. I have Homefill, and run my Land rover on it, so LPG is not really for me.
So, methinks CNG is the kiddy, but it would appear CNG Vs are very rare animals, and if I did get one, likely as not, if factory LPG posts on here are anyhtingto go by, I'd have to spend money on the factory-CNG anyway, or rip it out. Thus my logic goes liek this. Why struggel to get a CNG V70 when i can get a LPG V70 easily and get a specialist, to rip out the LPG and swap out to CNG. So my question is, will this be viable? I appreciate almost all of the LPG kit goes, including the tanks. I'm thinking I can get a LPG V70 + say £1500ish and I have my CNG V70 at last. Does this fly? And if it does, who fits CNG? |
Got to be worth an email to Chris Wise at Autogas 2000:
cwise@autogas.co.uk They're a long way from you in Thirsk, N Yorks, but they've looked after my V70 LPG conversion since fitting it 8 years ago, and I've come to think that if anyone knows anything about gas power then these are the guys! Interestingly, the LPG solenoids on my car are very clearly marked 'LPG/CNG' - and these are brand new, supplied only last month by Autogas 2000 to replace the originals fitted 215,000 LPG miles ago! Tartarini Auto, who made the LPG system fitted to my car, also make CNG systems - and Autogas 2000 are the main Tartarini agents for the UK. http://www.tartariniauto.it/index.ph...=en&Itemid=179. Good luck Cheers Jack |
Yes , it looks mor and more like I've got to convert. What i want and what I can get and all that stuff.
Thirsk is a bit of a stretch, but then I've been talking to classicswede of this parish and he is in Wales, which is far enough. So hey-ho.... |
When I wanted to cut my fuel costs 8 years ago, I first looked at diesel cars, but at that time, there weren't so many to choose from in my price bracket, and those that were had old-fashioned truck engines on the whole!
So I started to think about LPG, but again, not much to go at ready-made, but to have the conversion done meant that I could go shopping for a petrol-engined car. This in turn meant that I had plenty of choice of low-mileage one owner petrol cars, all comfortably within my price bracket. I needed an estate for the job I had then, so I bought a one-owner 50,000 mile 1997 V70 auto from a Volvo main dealer for £3500 plus a knackered old Honda Accord (great engine, shame about the rest it!). The LPG conversion cost me £1700, which I reckon to have recouped in less than six months in saved fuel costs. I still have that V70, now at over 270,000 miles up and it has been and remains by far the best car I've ever owned. And it still returns the equivalent of 50+mpg, it's just passed the MoT, and the only big bills I've ever had had was £650 when the rear main crank seal blew out at 220,000 miles, and £320 for a new exhaust. I do most of the servicing myself - I'm no mechanic but it's an easy car to work on, superbly engineered and bolted together. Good luck with finding the right car for your needs Cheers Jack |
Absolutley see where you have gone with that. LPG makes sense, and CNG too, for the same reasons.
I can't quite see why its quite usaul to spend the thick end of £25-30,000 on a car when they intends to do 100K+ miles. In your case, far more, why do they not look at fuel cost? That £25-30,000 car will costs in deisel, once it has £120K on the clock, nearly the price of the car again, whereas LPG has saved roughly £10K. Now £10K is a lot of money to all but the richest of people, and most will do 250,000 in a car at some point, if not as quickly as you, so why does no one see LPG as an option? I think LPG has saved you at keasst £15,000, more probably £20,000. Have you looked a CNG? At 250,0000 it will thrash even your impressive LPG for savings... And the Homefill pump has asset value at the end, whereas, if you tried to show me any asset from your LPg, I suspect all you cna show me is a large pile of filling stn receipts. Am I wrong, what am I missing here! I'm glad the mass market doesn't see it, because if they did the governmetn would close it down! |
Isn´t CNG a heavier, more complicated and more expensive system than Lpg? Dont you also need to refill more often?
I dont understand why CNG is superior to LPG, exept that it is more enviromentally friendly. Also, many modern cars seem to experience problems with premature valve wear when driving on cng/lpg. Diesel engines tend to last forever even if you abuse them, have lots of power on low rpm´s and are very economical. |
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LPG is only cheap because it's not subject to tax like petrol. And it's only taxed that way because the Govt made a rolling commitment at some international summit (Rio?) to maintain tax advantages for LPG as a 'greener' fuel. Some engines can suffer from premature valve wear on LPG/CNG, although it is possible to engineer your way around this. Volvo redblock engines, and the early Volvo whiteblock 5 and 6 cylinder engines - as fitted to 850s, early 70s and 960s - are well capable of withstanding the rigours of LPG. Later Ford-based motors are not so tough. I'd have to disagree that diesels last for ever even if you abuse them, and are more economical. Diesels can go bang too if you don't look after them! My 270,000 LPG converted petrol engine is just fine, and pence per mile, costs around 12p to run. That's easily as good as any equivalent diesel! Cheers Jack |
Let us be clear:
CNG is only superior, and cheaper if you fit into the following: 1. Have Homefill and space for it, and have other vehicles use it too. 2. Have piped gas. For years i lived where there was none. 3. Make 95% of you motoring within range of your CNG tank. 3. Do above average miles. 4. Feel going against the tide is a virtue. The above forces a narrow segment. The high front-end cost does not help. Many would spend this on a more prestigious car instead, but all of this is a very good fit for me. if you don't fit into the above, next choice is LPG. CNG is definitly not for all of you. I heard there are less than 200 CNG cars registered with DVLA, so CNG is far form sweeping the nation, and that frightens most, and wait... most of those are dustcarts! Without Homefill don't even think about it. If you are a low milage user or don't keep cars long, or want a convenient path, then follow the crowd, deisel is for you. For the crowd, for the Microsoft Windows user, for those that need to ask, I can see why CNG, even LPG, is a very very bad idea. |
Even LPG only makes sense if you have a big car that you want to keep a long time and use a lot.
Otherwise, it's diseasal - or even petrol if your mileage isn't so big. I always felt a bit 'at the edge' with my LPG conversion, but to think of sharing the CNG experience with just a handful of bin lorries and some hill farmers in Leighton Buzzard is more than my tired old brain could cope with!!!! Been a really interesting thread this. I love to think that there's folk out there thinking about things in a different way - especially if it means that HMG get less of your hard-earned ££££s! Cheers Jack |
That made me smile, No Capt, you are positively mainsteam, and don't you doubt it.
Strictly speaking, those dustcarts are usually LNG, rather than CNG, so as far as as I'm aware, the is NO, repeat no, filling station for me. At least I don't know of one. I think a few local autorities might have it, but not for public use. I heard Wiltshire council have it. This might sound a bit leftfield, only I don't really want them anyway. If they were there, I'd avoid them if I could. It defeats having Homefill. 'Chive' run an LNG natioanl network of 6 or 7 stations, for HGV, near or on, motorway sevice stations, but that is cryogenic frozen so will not do for CNG tanks. That leaves Homefill or nothing for me. Have I 'frit' you up? |
This all sounds great I love the Idea that people are saving money on fuel! I have just conveted 2 of my volvo's to run on WATER!!! by fitting HHO to them, my V70 D5 and swmbo's V40 2.0 petrol sport, I have also become the only approved and certified Installer in Cornwall Fitting Hydrotechnix HHO equipment, saving money and improving the enviroment Jay
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You are just an approved and certified scammer. |
How dare you say such things...
I have had namoprobic transistors fitted to my brain by my doctor. When I have finished with fitting his HHO system, my next project is to build a hydraulic robot And when its finished.......probably when I'm 70 years old that is; I'm going to have my brain put in it so i can live forever. Will you join me? |
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Jack |
Yes, maybe I was a bit closed-minded, it is a long time since I learnt about conservation of energy back in primary/high school.
I appologize jayhl7, maybe you can tell us some more about how hho works? |
Tell me more about this "homefill" thingie, sounds geeky, I'm intrigued.....
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I wanted one. To hell with CNG, thsi has to be far better. Developements so far, I rang jayhl7, he's only 120 miles from me, went down, and he fitted his gizmo, it only took 10 mins, and whoopee, it works. Only issue so far, is that ever since then, I'm having trouble with the secret mind-control tech contained in jayhl7 little black-box. He didn't tell me about that bit, and that was just plain, sneaky. It's OK, I've found the cure, as long as I wear a tin-foil hat, and keep at least 10 feet away from it, I don't hear the voices. And er... Miss World, VB & capt, let us all know how you get on when you've had him install yours. |
JohnC yes it is geeky, Google it becaue I'm short on the 1500 words today, and feelin' grumpy, so I CBA.
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How much did you pay for the installation CNGBiFuel? Did you get the system tuned properly, because I read on the hhoforums that it is important to add baking soda to the water so you get more hydrogen for the system.
Here is the excellent forum for other people running their cars on water http://www.hhoforums.com/ Sadly my country is to backwards, I can´t find even a single installer of hho-systems here :( |
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LOL I always thought you'd have to be immune to sarcasm to sell that snake oil, and so it proves....
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I'll try and expain what I can
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First let me say that this is Not Alien Tech!, nor is it revolutionary! it is the evolution of somthing that has been in use for over 70 years! so why have you never heard of it? Firstly the government cant Tax you on the water that you use as fuel and secondly the petro chemical companys dont want you to know about it as then they wont make as much money either!! HHO is the result of passing electricity through Electolyte (we use pottasium hydroxcide to make our's) the water is seperated in to it's original form, 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen, the gas is then fed in to the engine This works with most other fuel sources ( Petrol, Diesel and even Lpg ) it is used along side the normal fuel, not on it's own ( for those that have looked in to Diesel/Lpg it's a very similar process) the gas is fed into the engine via the air intake and as a result less of the normal fuel is used! On the system's that I install there is a current sencing relay that turns the system on Only when the engine is running and turns the system Off as soon as the engine is no longer running, there is no storage of hydrogen the system is also known as "Hydrogen on demand" so there is no loss of boot or luggage space, no extra tank in the spare wheel well, and no dangerous combustable fuel carried around ( I am aware that Lpg Tanks are very safe and am in no way be-littling them, I also have 2 Lpg vehicle's) any Gases leaving the fuel cells plate's after the engine has been turned off are quickly returned to water it's normal form, the emission's of vehicle's fitted with HHO are greatly Improved with up to 95% reduction's of harmful gases, Hydrogen burns hotter than either petrol or diesel and soon burns off the carbon build up from inside the engine after which time the engine runs Cooler! Carbon is a great insulator, The equipment that I install is also being used by TuV Austria, When they gave the system Approval they were so impressed that they started to have it installed on there own vehicle's! Have a look at the "Creo project" Via google, I hope this is of some help but any further question's ask! Jay |
It's such a shame it doesn't work really, or it would be brilliant. This has been being touted for literally decades just in different wrappers to suit the fad of the time.
If you genuinely believe this stuff (and many people flogging it actually do, it's generally sold as a business opportunity via a franchise type system and multi level marketing) I'd suggest.... Actually I can't post what I'd suggest on here, I'd be banned. Anyway you need to register as a trader to promote your business on here. Which should be entertaining if you read the forum rules for traders. |
I´m not very good at physics, but you can´t just make exceptions to the law of thermodynamics when it suits you. If I did that back in school my teacher would fail me in an instant.
If hho is working the way you say, why wouldn´t car manufacturers make cars that would run forever without adding fuel? Why isn´t there power stations using this principle to produce energy? I just want to understand how hho can work, because in theory it shouldn´t. And wikipedia says this about the flight of the bumblebee : "A widely believed falsehood holds that scientists proved that bumblebees are incapable of flight" |
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http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/...eEmissions.pdf At the moment it is difficult to produce enough Hho to run an engine on it's own ,I am aware of a 50cc scooter that starts on petrol and then switches over to Hho! and I am also aware of some small (1Kva) generators that will run on Hho once started, the production of small amounts of Hho is not too hard, there are lots of fuel cells available through the internet that produce Hho from water, and there are lot's of video's on youtube I have just seen "Truck runs 100% on water not gasoline" so it is possible, but the size of the reservoir is huge Car manufacturer's work along side the petrol companie's using fossil fuel's, If you never had to fill up at a petrol station again then the likes if Shell and Bp would do anything that they could to stop this happening! years ago someone created the "ever lasting light bulb" which was quickly bought by a big light bulb manufacturer and removed from the public domain, If you look into Bumble Bees they beat there wings upto 200 times per second! how could you even count that? It's no wonder Antoine Magnan (1881-1938) came to the conclusions that he did! I hope this is some help,Jay |
Whilst as a physics graduate I find this discussion of HHO generators highly amusing, I am slightly concerned about giving these systems any airtime on our forum. Scammers may well view people who read an LPG forum as good targets as they are people interested in saving on fuel costs and willing to modify their cars to do so. Please don't waste your time and money on one of these systems.
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On second thoughts, perhaps the amusement to be had from more posts explaining the merits of HHO generators outweighs the likelihood that anyone would be tempted to waste their time and money on buying one. Please do continue.
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Please do tell me more about the HHO systems you sell, after reading that PDF I'm intrigued, especially since the PDF states that the system is designed to reduce emissions not improve fuel economy. In fact it actually states that it needs to run the system largely on KERS harvested energy to avoid increasing fuel consumption.
Please note that if your system turns out to be two electrodes in a jar of water+electrolyte which is powered by the alternator then I'm going to be very disappointed. I'm expecting a full-house KERS powered system here using advanced membrane electrolyser technology, since that's what you linked to. |
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The PDF I posted was to show that there are other companys using similar technology, to harvest Hydrogen from onboard the vehicles, My intention was to highlight that it is possible and not to miss lead, The PDF uses water not Electrolyte and as a result will need more power, The systems that I supply and fit Do Not have a KERS system, Nor is there a glass jar, The dry cell is manufactured using titanium / 316L stainless steel alloy plates and a good electolyte is used, and power is provided from the alternator, the Dry cell will provide up to 5.5 litres per minuite of HHO. On the last tank of fuel that I used before installing HHO on my V70 D5, I travelled 525 miles, full tank to fuel light, and on similar roads at similar speeds, I have just had 670 miles and the fuel light came on once at the pump, I am happy with the results on my car! Jay |
I would advise you not to believe a word oof that. HHO is a pack of lies, the only marginal benefit it can possibly give is by causing the car to run too lean, which saves fuel at the expense of power and possibly damage to the cars systems
HHO salesmen - or as they are correctly know, fraudsters, have been targeting LPG conversion markets recently, this is an example. HHO fuelling is itself a fraudulent term, all the water (HHO is just another way of referring to water, H x 2 (2 x hydroogen) to 1 x O (oxygen) - IE H2O) stays as water, none of it is converted to energy directly, the only benefit of HHO that can be proven is when iit is used in high compression turbo or supercharged engines as it acts as an anti-knocking agent and allows a cleaner burn in the same way that increased fuel octane does. Which of course isnt possible in non-supercharged / turbocharged cars Annd of course the only times that water injection has been proven to work in cars, even turbo/supercharged ones, is when the water is heavily adulterated wiith methanol, which is an alcohol based fuel. Straight water-injection doesnt save fuel at all except by , as stated above, forcing the engine to run too lean I am quite happy to risk being sued for libel in stating that this man is a liar and a fraudster and is trying to lead you towards buying a system that cannot possibly work as it violates underlying laws of physics If he wishes to sue me i will provide my contact details willingly by PM and in court i will utterly destroy him |
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If the idea of counting to 200 times a second scares you, I hope you don't intend to install any systems on bike engines, which do just that (at 12,000rpm). Maybe they too defy the laws of physics and shouldn't run like bumble bees shouldn't fly? Similarly the oscillator that runs your phone or computer at roughly 10,000 times fast than that. Anyhow, I'd like you to read rule 6 of the forum rules you agreed to when you signed up. Quote:
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