LPG: When will people learn! (???)
 

Commenting on the woes of another in this forum I read....

This deserves its own thread. I had to smile. I am a high miler user and to date my endeavours in gassing vehicles has saved me easily £15,000.

Done right and properly understood, it works. Fuel and depreciation are the two biggest ways to spend money owning a car, yet few actually keep an eye on both at the same time. Many a fool buys a car because it gets good mileage.

Done right gassing a car works. For the savings involved, it's worth grasping, how to apply it, and why.

I for one have saved best part of the price of a very decent car. In the time it takes to understand, few of us earn enough to be better off doing something else.

So I also ask, when will people learn?

And how long will it take you to save £15,000? At current taxation levels I'd have to earn nearer £25,000 to get it. To me that's a lotta' time I could use to be doing something else. You?

In short, by running a vehicle. most of us are in denial as to where our money really goes.

855 T5 with 235,000 miles on the clock
 

I agree. 100,000+ miles of relatively trouble free running on LPG. Done properly, it works very well. Mine was also properly tuned by the fitter along a certain A road in the south. Whilst I had the laptop on my lap adjusting the levels, I looked up to see we were doing 115MPH along the dual carriageway as we made sure it was properly mapped. I think he was a touring car racer in his spare time as he was so smooth I didn't even notice the speed we were doing.

13p per mile on average with only a little loss as peak revs, when I just switch to Unleaded.

Very happy and properly the only reason I still own and run the car as it drinks unleaded like a Pompey supporter on Stella.

OK, I will admit to being the poster of that comment....

Unfortunatly I can only say it as I find it and I maintain that close friends and others vehicles that I have been in have been very unreliable and that based on this I would not buy or consider a conversion.

Due to the nature of my work I purchase my vehicle privately and then charge 45P for the first 10,000 miles and 20P there after (I do 15-25K a year).

If I thought I could buy an LPG equipped car and run it whilst claiming 45P a mile I would do so this afternoon.

Based on experience however I don't feel I can.

To me LPG is a somewhat niche offering which is really applicable to those with the knowledge and ability to run them, a personal interest and ability to work from home or get paid if they break down.

For the average person who runs a 2012 model car onwards (as I do) and who is not interested in tinkering they are not really a reliable product based on what I have seen.

The EML on is now an MOT failure despite assurances from an LPG owner on here that its not.

My post above was regarding someone looking into converting a 2018 model T6 and I voiced my opinion that this is likely more complex and involved than they may think.

Its not for me, if you have been successful and have not had EML on etc then that's great, I am happy for you.

I've owned a few gas converted vehicles including a monstrous Discovery with a chip tuned 4.6 V8 ! Never had a moments bother.
My current day van, a 2000 MY Vito is on LPG and is truly superb with no issues over the last year. Its very smooth and quiet with no perceptive loss of power and, if I work it out right, I can fill up at a certain supermarket for 55p a litre !
I've saved a fortune.
:)

Your story does not make sense and is confusing.

Are you saying you purchased a car with LPG already fitted and the EML is on and that is now a MOT failure?

If that is the case you are going all the wrong way about things. Myself and others could give you the right advice to sort the issue given some information. You have already been told numerous times that havingthe EML light on is not normal. Constantly banging on "LPG is sh1t" is not helping you or anyone else.


If your LPG issue is a current one try doing the same as anyone else and start your own thread with car and system details and we can start to help you

I am not banging on about anything, my post was used as a start to this thread.

I do not have LPG nor do I intend to as several friends and family have had it and it was unreliable and didn’t work well and consistently.

That was the comment that I made.

Our friend is right. It can be painful owning an LPG car.
Main problem is most of the LPG professional have no idea
What thy are doing.
Get a proper mechanic with experience on LPG and you’ll experience the pleasure of driving a converted LPG engine.
My 240 has got LPG since 1993. Never had any issue in 25 Years.
My 320bmw run sweet for 160k miles before selling it.
My swift 1.3 run swiftly :) for 100k miles before selling it.
Just need to look after the electric parts, replacing earlier than usual spark plugs, rotor, cables.
Also had a golf converted to CNG without any issue.
I think I have saved thousands over the Years.
Can’t hide conversion can be temperamental. Engine run differently depending on the weather, if it s wet or dry, if you are on a mountain or at the sea.
Never run smooth as when you feed the engine with petrol. Loss of power is noticeble. Some cars will need to adjust the valve every 20/30k miles. Others will not last over 100k miles.
It’s always a compromise running an LPG scar and probably something will go
wrong.

That’s my point thanks. If I were in a position to tinker and play with an installation I would and I admire people that do.

The answer I gave (used to open this thread) was regarding someone buying a 2018 xc90 t6 and LPG it.

The mind boggles at the complexity and difficulty this would require.

Well done on your installations, sounds good.

Just some quotes to show its not a one off post on the hate towards LPG conversions

That’s 6 posts out of the 350 that I have made. That’s around 2% of my posts. It’s not exactly a conspiracy is it.

It’s actually 1.5% of my posts...

So you have never run a LPG car yourself! All this crap you have been sprouting out and without first hand experiance

and this came from you

So it is ok for you to carry on with your own old wives tales then?

To be fair DLM48 was wrong but the MOT regs had only recently changed.
Your comments have been wrong and you still cant admit it. Yes there are some bad installs out there (I've just had one in today to fix) but then there are "bad" MOT testers out there who are not upto date and let a car go through with the EML on.

Now your "friends" who have had issues with LPG conversions. Imagine they go to some forums for advice, then just imagine some nay sayer like you comes along as says tough luck thats just how LPG is. That is no help to anyone.

Time to wake up and get with it - if you don't want to save money and reduce your emissions then leave the rest of us do to get along with it

I did not quote all of your posts but if you look at your posts relating to LPG they are all in a negative way to the fuel.

Oh it all makes sense now, you are in the LPG business.

Nope, never owned an LPG car and never claimed to have either. Have travelled distances in close friends, EML usually on, quite often problems, full throttle issues etc.

I will state that I am not in the industry and am not benifited in any way by being pro or anti lpg.

So far the original poster has stated ‘if done properly and understood’, another poster has said I am right (both seem to run LPG cars). And we have a poster who runs a 20 year old van.

So tell me this? In answer to the original thread OP how many 2018 XC90 T6 models have you converted? Assume it didn’t effect the warrenty? Assume it didn’t effect the resale and that it was an easy and cheap installation?

I won’t post any further Towards yourself/ your business , you seem to have a very pro agenda and seem to have determined I am anti.

When shown a 2018 xc90 T6 converted with ease and low cost and reliably naturally I will take it all back.

Best Regards and happy new year.

Strewth!! just had a read through this thread.. Glad I'm running around in a good old fashioned D5 XC70. Gets me where I want to go.

D5 xc90 here, 15-25k a year never missed a beat. Would buy an LPG in a heart beat if I thought I could continue to claim my 45p per mile travelled and do so reliably:

My experience is that this won’t happen which seems to upset some people for some reason???

I can't answer the the OP to the original thread. He never gave use the full details of the car. It could have been no newer than a 2017 as that is when the post was made. The OP has only ever made that one post so I can not help him further. It would most likely be a older model T6 that have been converted 100's of times but we are speculating

Yes I am in the industry so I see a lot of cars both converted well and badly. A new install and you have comback on the installer. Buy a car that was converted years ago if you don't know what you are looking at you are taking a chance but LPG converted cars dont especially sell for a higher price.

Manuafctures do not cover modifications hence why most LPG converted cars are either after warranty (you can buy a warranty) or factory fitted conversions.

Conversion easy? No T6 is easy but some cars are simple other are not

Cheap, buy cheap buy twice but no need to spend over teh odds either


The real thing you need to point out is are you doing the miles to both cover teh cost of conversion and start saving money. Do the maths before doing teh conversion that is a point everyone can agree on. Also do not forget to factor in servicing costs. If you will not see your money back in the first 12 months it is likely not worth it for you. Classics is another story

Happy New Year :teeth_smile:

Only attempting to educate you as have other being trying to do so

The old D5 is not a bad engine for a child killer :tounge_smile:

I have run one as a daily, not too many troubles with it and decent power to be fair in a S80 executive.
Decided to upgrade to a V90 and needed a 3ltr petrol engine in my life. The V90 on LPG is cheaper to run but ticks a lot more boxes of what I like in a car.

Ignoring what comes out of the exhaust the D5 is a great engine and for a diesel runs nice. Yes they need the soot cleaning out as part of servicing. Power is good. Noise is not bad. Compared to running on petrol it is cheaper to fuel. Service cost is similar. Both engine will do the miles reliably.
If you are strongly concerned about the environment you would never run a diesel car. But then if that strongly concerned you would not own a car, never fly etc. From that aspect I am glad the powers that be have suddenly remembered the crap that comes out of a diesel exhaust but given another 20 years that will once again be forgotten about.

Shame you can't easily buy new dual fuel cars in the UK, if the environmental gains are so high it should be a no brainer...

I have regularly written to my MP about the government's approach. I pay VED tax at full rate even though I have one of the cleanest cars on the road. Child killers ( as a previous poster eloquently put it) are VED free in many instances and burn a very dirty fuel.

Its also wrong that I get no recognition if I drive into Lahndahn Tahn either (don't do it often). When I wrote to the MP about how the Government plays to the tune of major car manufacturers and neglects the conversion industry who are important local businesses, what I got back was 'Oh well you could be driving around on unleaded'. My response was suitable irritated 'why would I choose to drive around on a more expensive fuel when there is a cheaper alternative'.

Lazy civil servants, just out to make it to pension date without doing the right thing for the environment and local small businesses.

I urge you all to write in disgust as well and if eventually there are measures put in place, then there will be more professional converters and less stories of woe.

The next big push will be electric cars, forgetting that production of an electric car uses twice as much energy, mainly due to its battery, environmental damage from lithium, cobalt and nickel mining and only about 10 years of life with significant costs and pollution from recycling batteries.

I predict the same outcry about electric cars in 10 years time that we had from Diesel.

In contrast, LPG is a very clean fuel and could be extracted from landfill and other sources if we were clever about it.

What always occurs to me, when the subject of electric cars comes up, is how on earth are most folk going to recharge them ?
Imagine you live in a tower block or terraced housing where parking outside your own house or flat is often impossible.....couple that with working in a town centre where you use local street parking or an NCP.....or a large out of town factory with a car park the size of a small village......
They haven't really thought this through have they ?
LPG. Its cheap, clean and safe. My next vehicle will have a V8 and gas.

We run LPG beacuse it’s cheap not because eco friendly. Shortly this is the truth.v8 lpg is saving you money but will not be eco friendly (even if more eco friendly than running the v8 with petrol).
Most of the Uk conversions are big engine and it’s difficult to discuss with any MP and convince them your are trying to save the planet running a V8 engine.

It had traditionaly just been big engines being converted but the trend has changed and a LOT of small cars with small engines are being converted.

Even just over 10 years when I was working for one of the main UK kit suppliers at the time the trend had changed. 15 years ago they were selling about equal numbers of 4 and 8 cylinder kits and a fair bit less 6 cylinder. When I left it was about double 3/4 cylinder kits over the the 5/6 and 8 cylinder kits combined.

Even petrol/electric cars are being converted. As a country we need to think about the environment but as individuals we think with our pocket so financial incentives are the way to make change

I will add one more point to this. Let us assume for one second that LPG's detractors are correct. Even with this a given, how often would the likes of an average LPG professional need to be at my 'unreliable heap' for me to be out of pocket?

Most cars, when they do have LPG issues, still run petrol. I'm sure it happens, but few actually leave owners stranded. And whilst it hasn't happened yet, if it did, with me up on the deal to date, I'd not cry.

I just wouldn't be too pleased. I reckon I'd live, so I still don't grasp what'd be so terrible with even the worst of examples. Now that it's a given that mine's an 'unreliable heap', the odds remain heavily stacked in my favour. With my eye on both major costs, I'm still left to run a car for a helluva lot less than most of you.

I think you only have to look at Vauxhall’s and Saab who have both released dual fuel petrol and lpg with negligible premiums.

If LPG was half price and reliable then that’s it, game over for single fuel, everyone would be out running these vehicles.

They didn’t take off and I would not have one unless I was semi retired and able to spend the time they need.

So you saved the cost of a decent car by not driving one? Congratulations


No pockets in shrouds my friend.....

To be honest I never actually felt safe in some of the LPG heaps I rode in.

A mate had an ex calor gas lpg Astra years ago, was a dog but cost 7p a mile and had a range of around 700mile on both tanks brimmed (in cold weather :shocked: )

When doing 800 miles a week and being paid 40p/25p a mile it ended up being a great financial move shame he didn’t save any of it and it was shagged by the end of its time after all it was an Astra.....

I had a Astra 2.0D at same time .......apart from a propensity for front tyres the 2.0d managed the mileage better despite being older and higher mileage another mate had a 1.6 megane :omg_smile:

Because you don’t know how it works. It S safer than running petrol.

Just don’t rear end one! The rear crumple zone is replaced with some box section that makes a defenders rear end look like a nice place to park.....

That’s the factory authorised conversions..... the back street garage sling a tank in where it fits and tack it down jobs.......

Except...

You still have petrol (I would image less than 5% if installs remove the tank and have a split lpg/petrol tank) so your point makes no sense what so ever in those situations.

For the 95% covered the lpg tank goes in the spare whee well (crumple zone), boot (crumple zone) or under the side of the car (maybe not crumple zone but 4 inches from edge).

So no, clearly it’s not safer is it?

:-)

In a car accident it has been proved (Holland independent test TNO) lpg car are safer than petrol cars.
The tank makes the structure more resistant not the other way round.
Also the tank has at least 3 safety valves.
There is nothing to discuss about safety.

Right,

So my petrol car for example with 60l of petrol remains equipped with 60l of petrol AND 40l of lpg.

Somehow taking the same vehicle with the same amount of petrol it’s safer when you add lpg?


I am sure you can understand my confusion.

I'm just going to join the safety debate as it's a popular "discussion" with my dad....

The LPG tanks are very strong pressure vessels so are significantly less likely to rupture in a crash than a plastic petrol tank.

However if there was to be a major leak, LPG will immediately vaporise and disperse, unlike petrol which will spill and linger. But you do not want to be within a hundred yards of it if it does burst or snap a connector off.... however unlikely that might be.

So whilst logic says a car in a crash carrying 60L of petrol and 30L of LPG is going to be less safe than just 60L of petrol, but I think the probability of there being an issue like that is very low.

Interesting watch :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4JwbK3-q0

Or buy a diesel which will not readily combust in an accident, offers similar mpg, is available at all service stations and works.

And makes lots of noise, clogs a DPF if used on short runs, pumps out black soot and has a lot of harmful small particles coming out of the exhaust.

Thats a real I'm fine thanks and two fingers up to the next generation attitude

Back to the fire aspect a VW I converted many years ago. A year or so I had a phone call from the owner saying the camper had caught fire. A petrol hose had started leaking causing it to catch on fire while parked. The LPG tank survived intact and the fire brigade who attended were impressed at how safely the LPG side burned. The LPG tank was still intact while the rest of the van had disapeared. The reason for the call is they had now purchased a replacement and wanted that converting. Also while we were there adding a fire exitnguisher system aimed mainly at all the petrol components just in case the same kind of thing should ever happen again. The safest thing would be to remove all the petrol system and run LPG only but regulary checked and any suspect items replaced at the first sign of problems petrol can be a fairly safe fuel. Whatever fuel you use there is always a risk

Thought I would chime in and have a few questions too.
For past 14 years all of my cars have been LPG converted (volvo v40 2002reg, smart forfour 55reg, BMW 328 convertible Nreg and now BMW 330 convertible 02reg).
LPG has been great (the v40 was used all over Europe, where LPG could be had for 29cents).
Reliability has not been an issue, when I had the conversion done and has only been a problem when I bought the car already converted (poor conversions). The current BMW I had converted at 118k 5 years ago and about to hit 200k. There have been no issues with the car at all.
However, as much as I love the savings (220 miles for £25) I am getting very annoyed at the profiteering by big fuel companies. Non supermarket LPG is now 65-73 a litre but a big supermarket or gas suppliers sell it at 52-55p a.litre, so why am I being ripped off by at least £4 every fillup?
Secondly, all my cars have been "normal injection" so perfectly convertable to LPG. However, as I understand new cars are now all direct injection and the conversion is not easy nor is it cheap - am I right in this respect?
Finally, I found it rather difficult to find an LPG installer who knew what they are doing. I know that there are lots listed on the LPGA site, but in my experience this stands for nothing. I found that there are only about 10 companies/individuals in the UK that I would trust to fit a system.

All in all, LPG can work great, but you.do need to have a good system fitted by a trustworthy person/company.

The rip off prices is typical of shell and BP some have been so bad you are better off using a bit of petrol to get to the next LPG filling station. I have seen 10p variation from 2 filling stations opposite each other! One flowgas and the other BP.

A lot of petrol cars now are going direct injection. The injectors need to be cooled or will melt when running LPG. For these engines there are two ways to convert them. 1) still run some petrol through the petrol injector at the same time as the LPG. The downside of this is you are using about 20% petrol so conversion repay is longer.
2) run the LPG through the petrol injector. This means running liquid LPG and modification to the petrol system.

The big downside in both cases is they need manufacturers time and development to make the system work reliably. That means the kits are car/engine specific and cost more, install cost is also then higher.

There are still normal engines out there but the choice of simple to convert cars gets more limited the newer you go.

If I were in your position getting paid 45p and 20p a mile, i'd be running a gassed 940. It doesn't have a load of complex rubbish to go wrong. Super reliable and cheap to run!

from what I gather you still have to run / start the car on petrol until it's warmed up or has these changed now?

So thoroughly pointless for short journeys + the cost of conversion makes it not worth it for me.