Dispute Advice
 

Hello

Not a Volvo issue but a general one; last Jan I had the h/g's replaced on my Subaru as they were deemed about to fail. Work carried out by a Subaru MD (who I trust and have been very fair for a number of years). The other week the car didn't seem quite right and a quick inspection showed radiator expansion tank full of oily water, car coughed on start up, etc. MD discovered the thermostat (replaced when h/g's done) had failed. As all tests carried out could not show h/gs had failed we had the engine out and we have found a cracked head.

Their position is that as we cannot prove the thermostat failed before the head cracked they are not liable. They have suggested an independent engineer inspect the head but I can't see how this can prove the sequence of events.

To me it's clear cut and if it came to court the balance of probabilities has to be the thermostat causing the crack due to overheating. As I paid by credit card I could make a Section 75 claim but before I go further does anyone have any similar experience here?

Any thoughts gratefully received.

It’s very reasonable of them to suggest independent inspection.
One cant expect the garage to hold their hands up and say its their fault, very expensive, but their insurance should cover it. Did they supply all parts used ? If not theres another can of worms, not our fault guv, must have been that dodgy xyz.
Thermostats tend not to fail often and then generally do so fullly open, but not always.
I wonder what cracked the head ? Overheating ? Some failure in doing up bolts correctly ? Is the engine still intact or has it been dismantled ?

I agree with you that a faulty thermostat is the most plausible cause however as the garage or the defendant is refusing you claim, you the claimant need to prove this. If it went to a court you will need an expert opinion such as an engineers report. As a layman the judge will not look at your opinion as strongly as that of the garage full of qualified mechanics and probably rule in their favour. Bring in an engineers report in your favour and the garage will possibly do the repair rather than go to the expense of fighting it and if they do you have evidence on your side to persuade a judge.
As for a Section 75 claims, yes they are great but only if you are in the right. They will help you if the dealer has gone bust or refuses to help you. Your card company will also want some proof that the dealer and they have a case to answer. With an engineers report they may just tell the dealer to fix it or they will and then take the money out their account.

I have had two full refunds for cars I bought with support from my credit company via a section 75 One had a fake service history. Easy to prove the stamps in the book did not match the dealers records. The other one a faulty gearbox. I had a report from a BMW dealer down the road saying the car needed a £6,000 Gearbox.

You need an engineers report. It might cost but if it is in your favour you can claim that cost back as well. Good luck I hope it goes your way.

Dispute advice.
 

For what it's worth, I am in agreement with the responses to date, and sympathise with your situation.
What I would question from your original post is the statement relating to the faulty thermostat leading to overheating which has then led to the head cracking.
Now it could reasonably be asked:-
If you believe this to be true (and even if it could be proved) surely there would be a responsibility on your part to monitor the coolant temperature (assumed there is a gauge or at least an 'over heat' light) and stop the car before such damage occurred?
Sorry, it doesn't help your case, but no doubt the question will be asked.

Very true. No car should overheat if the driver monitors the coolant temperature gauge properly

The car left their garage in January and has been fine for 7 months , So it can't have been cracked then .. What exactly happened regarding the recent overheat ? Did you let the temperature gauge go up far , how far and for how long? Hopefully heads are plentiful for these ..

last January, 18 months ? even more difficult to prove a case.

Iain

Does it have a temperature gauge? Mine hasn't, it is just a warning light.

(When we were racing Chevrons with BMW engines, one popped an expansion plug at full revs, the gauge briefly flicked to hot, then, with no coolant, dropped again.
We shovelled the engine out of the sump in bits!)

Thanks all for responses and sympathy!

To answer a few questions;

1; New thermostat fitted by MD (at my request...)

2; Temp gauge never indicated overheating; as the expansion tank showed no evidence of overflowing, and the cough was on the day I discovered the issue, I am confident (not legally helpful I know) that I found it on the day it happened. No coolant had been lost. It was transported to the MD and was not driven from the time of discovery. On arrival they said it started fine, no cough, though after they replaced the thermostat it ran poorly when hot. It clearly has overheated and I suspect that the sender is in the part of the engine that may have been starved of coolant so the temp gauge was of no help. The MD hasn't suggested that the crack was a consequence of being driven with a failed thermostat, but that the crack may have occurred beforehand due to age/mileage (155k). This is of course more difficult to disprove than arguing that the damage was my fault because I drove it with the temp gauge showing a problem; if I had driven any distance the engine would have completely overheated and probably seized

3; Last Jan is Jan 18.

I'll think on over the weekend as to my options, but thanks again for the advice re an engineer's report before I start proceedings.

talk to a solicitor before starting, he might well advise you of your chances of winning. Im thinking had head gasket, higher mileage, older car, little while ago, your chances are reducing with every post.

You don't mention the story before the hg repair. Did the engine overheat? My quite possible guess is the head was rather cracked at that moment. In this scenario subaru is not responsible for it, but may be responsible for replacing the hg without thoroughly having tested the head for warping/cracks - so may get the labor money back. It's kind of gray area so that may not help win such case, even more so given the miles on the car..

Agree with the above.

Instead of ploughing time, effort and money chasing the legal route with no guarantee of a satisfactory outcome and the car back on the road, it may be best to plough that time, effort and money into a second hand, pressure tested head, fitted to get the car back on the road with a known outcome from the start.

Not an easy situation and I hope you get it sorted whichever way.

H/Gs replaced as there was an oil leak, the usual indicator on these engines. No overheating beforehand, and I have clocked 8k miles since the repair; I doubt any cracks were present in January as I would have had problems before now.

Sube parts are famously expensive but a new head is a reasonable £700ish (plus all the labour to put the engine back in) so I'm looking at around £2k. Do I want to spend that much again so soon? It's the old dilemma of pouring more money into a car I very much like and have kept well for 6 years, or putting the money towards another car I know nothing about.

If I do challenge the MD I'll report back with the outcome.

It would be reasonable for the garage to ask how you allowed it to overheat to the stage that it was hot enough to crack the head, if indeed that was the sequence of events.
It would be very difficult for a court (or expert) to say whether the head was weakened long ago leading to needing a gasket replaced. The work could well have weakened it some more and eventually it just gave out. It would be very difficult to prove negligence against the garage in this case in my view.

Ok am with the orhers... I am sorry but the main thing is that if you pull over the instance the engine heats up or light illuminates this would prob not happen. Also it’s a fair time since they did the work.


I seem to be the only one asking this (genuinly) but

1). How do you prov a thermostat caused this. I understand that upon reaching heat the coolant does not circulate via the radiator as the thermostat has failed. I have had thermostats fail in the past but never led to this.

2). The real nail in the coffin to me is this.... your inspector will not be able to prove thermostat failures because the vehicle has overheated and will have meant the thermostat would have been subjected to excess heat. Question to
Inspector is did the thermostat fail or did the heat generated car we it to fail and you can not prove that.

What is wrong with a second hand pressure tested head rebuilt?

You have just brought back an old memory. I had a stuck closed thermostat on a Morris 1000 van. It had been left standing for along time and I think corrosion got to it. It would be fine for 30 minutes driving and then the temperature would start to climb. It would then start to eject the coolant and there was plenty of steam to attract your attention to a problem. After pulling over and letting it cool I was able to remove the radiator cap. (Glad I used a big rag) I added water and made it home ok. I thought there was maybe an airlock that had caused the overheat and coolant loss. When it happened again the following day I knew there was a problem and eventually found the thermostat seized. Fitted a new one and never had a problem afterwards.

Dispute advice.
 

With Morris 1000s and sticking thermostats, the first you knew about it was a boiling-over radiator as you say, since there wasn't a temperature gauge. Again as you rightly say, this needed careful removal of the radiator cap to minimise the risk of having burns, but all important, you had to wait for the system to cool to a reasonable temperature before adding cold water.

Failure to do this could result in thermal shocking and the potential for cracking heads or blocks.

Back to the original post:- by what I understand of it, would I spend on 'expert opinion' to present to court in the hope of winning recompense? No, I don't think I would.
I think I would do as suggested, and invest my money in a pressure tested secondhand head and go forward with experience from there. If the thermostat was the culprit in this then I would certainly invest in a main dealer replacement part rather than an aftermarket one (which can be less reliable) - but this might have been done anyway.

To follow up some comments here;

1; The temp gauge has never suggested the car overheated and it didn't lose any coolant
2; The MD has admitted liability for the failed thermostat which they fitted, which was a Subaru item
3; What's wrong with a good s/h head? It won't save me much (in the context of the total spend) and of course if there any more problems it will be down to me as I supplied it. I am also now wondering if replacing just one head is a good idea!

I believe the sequence of events is a failed thermostat and the cracks appearing as a consequence of localised overheating. I realise I can't prove this but it is more likely to me than two catastrophic events happening simultaneously independently of each other.

Dispute Advice.
 

I'm still not sure that I'm following your logic regarding the failed thermostat being the culprit here, but perhaps I'm missing something, and perhaps a judge would be more up to the understandings of the mechanics of the cooling system of this car, and grant in your favour.

A couple of question remains with me:- if you are claiming the crack resulted from overheating, yet the gauge remained at normal and there was no loss of coolant, how would such (localised?) overheating lead to cracking the head?

Also, if the thermostat failed in the closed position then is it possible that the gauge would not detect a resultant overheat? If it didn't, is it fair to assume that the car did not continue its journey from the point the thermostat stuck and so no excessive overheat and no resultant cracking due to this non existent overheat.

My theory ( and obviously it can only be that) is that this crack developed at the the first failure, and the road to any claim may be the absence of written evidence of pressure testing the head before refitting (this assumes it wasn't). If it was, then end-of.

I feel this whole claim for negligence would be an interesting legal case to follow up on.