Mysterious judder issue V2015.5 V60 T3 Automatic

[innocent2k]

I've posted about this earlier too but I'm having way more symptoms to go on now, in hopes that it sounds familiar to someone what goes on. I apologize for bringing this up occasionally, but Volvo is being of no help at all since "there are no codes" (and God forbid they would actually ask further up in the system...)

Maintenance according to Volvo's service programme performed ever since car was new. 90000km on the odo, transmission flushed at 82000 at Volvo. Using only 98 RON fuel in an effort to rule out the E10-stuff being the root cause.

The judder/jerking usually takes place during the first few minutes of any ride, so whatever conidition causes it is more likely to be affected by a colder environment.

For (seemingly) no reason at all, the car will start jerking. While this is going on I've been able to try the following things at different times.

- when near-flooring or flooring it, the car will first rev up to 4000-5000 RPM a while before it will eventually make a rather jerky downshift. I've gathered that his is likely a slip/flare. Edit: When the engine is revving, absolutely no acceleration takes place at all, car acts as if in Neutral before it finally shifts.

- changing to sports mode somehow seemed to eliminate most (all?) of it, flipping back to normal would make it return

- shifting up and down in normal mode would not affect the jerking at all, so it does not seem to be RPM dependent

- changing to Neutral and the judder/vibrations would (obviously) go away instantly, changing back to Drive it would re-appear instantly

Additionally, but unsure if just a trait of the transmission or not:

- upshifts in lower gears feels poorly timed, 4-5 and 5-6 always smooth as silk. Rest is a bit more random.

- 2-1 downshifts in particular can feel a bit harsh sometimes, but been told this may as well be the lockup disengaging. It's not really a knock, but can feel some thump-like movement from somewhere right before getting to a complete stop sometimes.

Do I now have enough to go on to know more in detail where I need to look for the fault? Hoping to find the issue before my extended warranty runs out because whatever this is, I don't think it'll be a cheap fix.

[GMcL]

Get the obvious questions out of the way:
1. did it do this before the transmission oil was changed ?
2. what oil was use as replacement ?

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by GMcL

Get the obvious questions out of the way:
1. did it do this before the transmission oil was changed ?
2. what oil was use as replacement ?

1. I didn't have it for long before I had the fluid changed so it's hard to say, really. It was beyond the threshold for when Volvo recommended a fluid change so it was a rush job. In hindsight I should have driven it a bit before I did...

2. Volvo used their original branded JWS3324 spec fluid for the post-2011 transmissions.

Edit: I wrote fuel change, it should obviously have been fluid change!

[GMcL]

Did they do a transmission reset or was everything else left as it was ?

If no reset, that would be a starting point to force the car to relearn. If that does not fix it then you are probably looking at worn clutches in the lower gears. When slip/flare starts an oil charge/flush is usually the first step as you are noticing this with fresh oil is not a good starting point.

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by GMcL

Did they do a transmission reset or was everything else left as it was ?

If no reset, that would be a starting point to force the car to relearn. If that does not fix it then you are probably looking at worn clutches in the lower gears. When slip/flare starts an oil charge/flush is usually the first step as you are noticing this with fresh oil is not a good starting point.

Yes, fluid counter and the adaptation values were cleared. But in your opinion and experience, can all those points listed be related to a transmission issue? I understand that the post may be a bit "leading" towards that, but I'm still not sure of anything.. but if these are all transmission symptoms, obviously that's where I need to spend more time investigating...

I have not noticed slipping/flaring in most situations, first time I ever encountered it was during one such episode of jerking where I just wanted to see if I could make the car snap out of whatever it was by throttling my way out of it, so I totally did not expect what happened and it certainly didn't seem right to me. Then again, my experience with automatics is very limited, so I may be asking a lot of stupid questions about things that are more obvious to others :-)

[GrahamBrown1]

With this been a T3 does it have the aisin Warner box or the ford powershift. Have you the 1.6 engine or the 2.0. If it is the ford powershift box they are notorious for problems. I’m also certain the fluid is different to what you specify was used and they also had a filter fitted. Tho you say it was done at a Volvo dealer so it should all be good.

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by GrahamBrown1

With this been a T3 does it have the aisin Warner box or the ford powershift. Have you the 1.6 engine or the 2.0. If it is the ford powershift box they are notorious for problems. I’m also certain the fluid is different to what you specify was used and they also had a filter fitted. Tho you say it was done at a Volvo dealer so it should all be good.

It's an Aisin Warner TF71SC (lower torque version of the TF80SC), and it's a 1.5 engine, which is basically the same as the VEA 2.0, just with a shorter stroke.

The transmission fluid used is the correct one, though (OEM 31256774). They did not change the filter because that requires disassembling the transmission from what I was told.

I am as I suggested also still open to it not being the transmission at all, but the above mentioned quirks makes it indeed look like it. All I know is that something is absolutely not right here... and I want it fixed, but it's hard to find someone with knowledge on what is wrong based on symptoms alone

[innocent2k]

A small update to this issue...

Was at one of Norway's leading experts on transmissions yesterday, and there were no red flags (only red fluid!). However, they did note that the car would shudder after some shifts and that it felt like misfiring to them.

On my way home, I stopped at a shop they recommended me to stop by, and the technician did not feel any jerks when he testdrove the car, allthough he noted that on his trip there were some misfiring registered. Combined with an intermittent DTC (ECM-P00C600 - fuel rail pressure low) that shows up every now and then, he did conclude whatever I'm experiencing is in the engine and the high pressure pump or sensor may be suspects once I can rule out the coils.

Local Volvo shop have earlier just asked me to disregard that DTC since it's not permanent, and also refused to give a clear answer whether or not any registered misfires at all should occur. The one who saw my car yesterday said it was NOT normal.

For reference, a test drive I did yesterday evening myself that lasted about 15 minutes resulted in:

2 misfires on cylinder 1
2 misfires on cylinder 2
13 misfires on cylinder 3
6 misfires on cylinder 4

Any suggestions on how I can test further exactly where the fault is before throwing parts on it (other than swapping coil 3 with another one to see if the highest count moves)?

Edit: I also believe there may be misfires going on that the counter isn't adding, because when the counter increases there's almost always a felt jerk, but not necessarily so the other way round.

[innocent2k]

This is still unresolved but there's been some movement and because I hate finding unresolved threads to various problems myself I always make sure to update until resolved.

As it stands now, local Volvo garage have decided that the misfires combined with the sporadic ECM-P00C600 DTC warrants replacing of the high pressure fuel pump and the sensor. The reason they're going this way is because I have had every symptom described in VIDA for that DTC (not at the same time, though) and VIDA is quite clear about this DTC set means faulty high pressure pump or sensor. Fingers crossed!

[GMcL]

I hope they can get to the root cause for you.

DTCs are a bit of a double edged sword, not every DTC is a fault in itself until it triggers an event. Network errors occur on a system which is working perfectly fine.

It makes sense the misfire occurs at higher revs as the coil packs have to work harder. Being in Norway and limited to, what is it, 90km/h means you only really see high revs in lower gears so yes, the fact you see the issue in lower gears could be a red herring pointing to the gearbox.