240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I'm going to be the voice of dissent on this one Alan. Looking at your picture from a few days ago, #1 combustion chamber to the water channel above it in the pic nearest the thermostat, it can be seen there is corrosion in that area on both the gasket and the head - chances are this was where the combustion gases were getting into the cooling system.

You will almost certainly find similar markings on the block in the same area. If the head (above the gasket) has eroded as the photo seems to show, this means the gasket can also lift up, allowing water to pass under the gasket and erode the block in the same area.

Have you retorqued the head since the rebuild? As in got the engine hot and retorqued by cracking each head bolt 1/4 turn then retightening to spec? Might pay to double-check to see what Haynes suggets in this respect, you may have to get it hot and alow to cool before retorquing, i can't remember and not fully awake yet. You may find this solves the problem with no further investigation needed.

It could also be related to the head bolts, i believe they can be re-used once on red blocks, if they've been in and out like a fiddlers elbow they really need replacing though. Out of interest, did you run a tap through the head bolt holes or otherwise ensure (by running each bolt in and out of its hole) they were free to turn easily all the way in and out?

Something in the back of my mind also wonders if the bubbles in the tank were just an air lock shifting gradually and bringing residual bubbles of CO - being heavier than air, if it was trapped in the coolant in the block, it's possible there was still some lurking in the system. Until it was heated up, the gas would have remained compressed under the water in the block then expanded with heat into a big enough bubble to force their way up and out.

Thanks Dave,

I'll let you know what happens.

Stay alert,

Alan

PS. The head bolts can be used 5 times on red block engines.

[Clifford Pope]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Personally, I much preferred working on engines using studs and nuts, but then I am unashamedly old-fashioned!

Funny that studs seemed to last for ever. I don't recall ever reading warnings that they stretched and had to be replaced. They do the same job, don't they?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Thanks Dave,

I'll let you know what happens.

Stay alert,

Alan

PS. The head bolts can be used 5 times on red block engines.

Interesting concept on the head bolt re-use Alan, seems a particularly arbitrary figure. With most engines i've ever known with a cast iron block and alloy head, it's been necessary to renew the head bolts each time they're removed, due to designed in stretching. As far as i've always been aware, this is necessary to allow for different coefficients of linear thermal expansion which is why on engines with studs for the purpose of securing the head, the heads are cast iron, just like the block. Usually the torque setting on those is significantly lower than that of mixed-metal engines (final torque setting on a BL A-series if memory serves is something like 64lb.ft yet the torque setting for the B230 is :

Stage 1 - 44lb.ft
Stage 2 - slacken then re-torque to 15lb.ft
Stage 3 - angle tighten by 106 degrees
Run engine up to temperature and allow to cool then :
Stage 4 - further tighten by 45 degrees
E&OE

Done that from memory having looked in the HBoF for any clues on re-use of head bolts. In all honesty i only looked quickly at the tightening procedure so if iv'e got it wrong, apologies. Also with yours being 10+ years older than the engine it's quoted for (albeit essentially the same engine) there might be detail differences.

Originally Posted by Clifford Pope

Funny that studs seemed to last for ever. I don't recall ever reading warnings that they stretched and had to be replaced. They do the same job, don't they?

Yes and no, see above for a better explanation.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Interesting concept on the head bolt re-use Alan, seems a particularly arbitrary figure. With most engines i've ever known with a cast iron block and alloy head, it's been necessary to renew the head bolts each time they're removed, due to designed in stretching. As far as i've always been aware, this is necessary to allow for different coefficients of linear thermal expansion which is why on engines with studs for the purpose of securing the head, the heads are cast iron, just like the block. Usually the torque setting on those is significantly lower than that of mixed-metal engines (final torque setting on a BL A-series if memory serves is something like 64lb.ft yet the torque setting for the B230 is :

Stage 1 - 44lb.ft
Stage 2 - slacken then re-torque to 15lb.ft
Stage 3 - angle tighten by 106 degrees
Run engine up to temperature and allow to cool then :
Stage 4 - further tighten by 45 degrees
E&OE

That must have been for a tuned 'A' series motor, 'L.S.'. The torque setting for a motor in standard trim was rather lower, 40 lb.ft in the 948cc version in the Morris 1000, IIRC. The larger 'B' series motor, also in standard tune, ran 50 lb.ft in the 1798cc version in the Morris 1800. In each case the rocker pedestal nuts were tightened to 25 lb.ft. (I played around a lot with these engines in my youth! )

Of course, both the 'A' and the 'B' series engines were eminently tunable and the heads on tuned and / or higher compression engines may well have been tightened down more firmly.

Regards, John.

[Stephen Edwin]

For information. Head bolts have been discussed recently.

On a quick check. So far as I can see quickly. Replace all the bolts if have been torqued five or more times, if stretched, or if in any doubt.
Not quite the same as can be used five times.

Torque settings procedure is different for early bolts and the later (stretch) bolts. And as I recall later bolts are torque plus degrees.

I hope that helps.

Comrade Stephen Edwin


.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

That must have been for a tuned 'A' series motor, 'L.S.'. The torque setting for a motor in standard trim was rather lower, 40 lb.ft in the 948cc version in the Morris 1000, IIRC. The larger 'B' series motor, also in standard tune, ran 50 lb.ft in the 1798cc version in the Morris 1800. In each case the rocker pedestal nuts were tightened to 25 lb.ft. (I played around a lot with these engines in my youth! )

Of course, both the 'A' and the 'B' series engines were eminently tunable and the heads on tuned and / or higher compression engines may well have been tightened down more firmly.

Regards, John.

I can't find all the information at the moment John, most sites on t'internet are quoting 50lb.ft for the 1275cc A series, 55lb.ft on the turbo version. Also the B-series is quoted at 50lb.ft. This gives use a useful comparison in that the later "O" series, M and T seriesengines were basically a B series with an aluminium OHC head fitted and a larger capacity. I can't find the torque settings for the "O" at present (which was 8 valve OHC but both the M and T series (16v DOHC) are 33lb.ft Stage 1, 59lb.ft for Stage 2 followed by 90 degrees angle tightening.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Interesting concept on the head bolt re-use Alan, seems a particularly arbitrary figure. With most engines i've ever known with a cast iron block and alloy head, it's been necessary to renew the head bolts each time they're removed, due to designed in stretching. As far as i've always been aware, this is necessary to allow for different coefficients of linear thermal expansion which is why on engines with studs for the purpose of securing the head, the heads are cast iron, just like the block. Usually the torque setting on those is significantly lower than that of mixed-metal engines (final torque setting on a BL A-series if memory serves is something like 64lb.ft yet the torque setting for the B230 is :

Stage 1 - 44lb.ft
Stage 2 - slacken then re-torque to 15lb.ft
Stage 3 - angle tighten by 106 degrees
Run engine up to temperature and allow to cool then :
Stage 4 - further tighten by 45 degrees
E&OE

Done that from memory having looked in the HBoF for any clues on re-use of head bolts. In all honesty i only looked quickly at the tightening procedure so if iv'e got it wrong, apologies. Also with yours being 10+ years older than the engine it's quoted for (albeit essentially the same engine) there might be detail differences.

Thank you for that Dave,

The good news is that the Royal Barge is back together and running just as it should.

Fortunately my guess about this issue being due to a manky NOS head gasket proved to be just right. When I got it out I could see the problem, it was pitted by corrosion on all 4 of the metal rings. I gave the top of the block a really good polish up, same for the bottom of the head, and gave a bit of attention to one of the positive fitting dowels that didn't seem to be seating properly. With hindsight I should have noticed the pitting on the gasket before I fitted it, but I'd have just taken it out of the sealed packet and assumed it was okay - you win some, you lose some. No more gas in the water.

I'm pleased I changed the head bolts - the old ones were the Allen key type (not my favourite, I was concerned that if the internal hexagons ever rounded off they would be difficult to get out). The new ones are shanked external hexagons and feel much more positive. They screwed is easier as well, so I'm more confident about them.

The 5 times use information came from an American Volvo forum, it seemed quite authoritative. I have been through the BofH is some detail looking for information on the torquing procedure, it just gives the 2 stage (60 Nm then 110Nm) method and doesn't talk about warming then re-tightening. The only similar information I could find was this (it came with the manky NOS gasket set):



... but that seems to be very specific to the 'Star' type drive, which I don't have. I think what I will do is re-torque the bolts at the 600 mile point when I check the cam belt adjustment.

Well, all's well that ends well. The Royal Barge seems fine, it needs a little tinkering with the carburettor setting, but I think that is all. I may check the ignition timing some time (not that I suspect it is wrong) and run a compression test in a few weeks when everything has bedded in. I'll change the water in the system for EG in the next week or so.

Overall I'm quite happy. The Royal Barge has a reconditioned head, new gasket, new hushers, valve clearances adjusted and a new cam belt:



... and all for about £170 (+ two whole days work, but fortunately I don't account for my time).

Stay alert,

Alan

PS. While the head was off I found and fixed a number of electrical wires that had lost part of their their plastic insulation, I've read this is quite common amongst older Volvos (a combination of Volvo using cheap wire and it getting baked over time by the heat of the engine bay). I've made everything good for now with a combination of shrink tube and tape, but I was thinking it would not be difficult to make a new loom for the engine bay; there are only about a dozen wires. Have you heard of that being done previously?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Thank you for that Dave,

The good news is that the Royal Barge is back together and running just as it should.

Fortunately my guess about this issue being due to a manky NOS head gasket proved to be just right. When I got it out I could see the problem, it was pitted by corrosion on all 4 of the metal rings. I gave the top of the block a really good polish up, same for the bottom of the head, and gave a bit of attention to one of the positive fitting dowels that didn't seem to be seating properly. With hindsight I should have noticed the pitting on the gasket before I fitted it, but I'd have just taken it out of the sealed packet and assumed it was okay - you win some, you lose some. No more gas in the water.

I'm pleased I changed the head bolts - the old ones were the Allen key type (not my favourite, I was concerned that if the internal hexagons ever rounded off they would be difficult to get out). The new ones are shanked external hexagons and feel much more positive. They screwed is easier as well, so I'm more confident about them.

The 5 times use information came from an American Volvo forum, it seemed quite authoritative. I have been through the BofH is some detail looking for information on the torquing procedure, it just gives the 2 stage (60 Nm then 110Nm) method and doesn't talk about warming then re-tightening. The only similar information I could find was this (it came with the manky NOS gasket set):



... but that seems to be very specific to the 'Star' type drive, which I don't have. I think what I will do is re-torque the bolts at the 600 mile point when I check the cam belt adjustment.

Well, all's well that ends well. The Royal Barge seems fine, it needs a little tinkering with the carburettor setting, but I think that is all. I may check the ignition timing some time (not that I suspect it is wrong) and run a compression test in a few weeks when everything has bedded in. I'll change the water in the system for EG in the next week or so.

Overall I'm quite happy. The Royal Barge has a reconditioned head, new gasket, new hushers, valve clearances adjusted and a new cam belt:



... and all for about £170 (+ two whole days work, but fortunately I don't account for my time).

Stay alert,

Alan

PS. While the head was off I found and fixed a number of electrical wires that had lost part of their their plastic insulation, I've read this is quite common amongst older Volvos (a combination of Volvo using cheap wire and it getting baked over time by the heat of the engine bay). I've made everything good for now with a combination of shrink tube and tape, but I was thinking it would not be difficult to make a new loom for the engine bay; there are only about a dozen wires. Have you heard of that being done previously?

I think i would play it as you suggest Alan, after 600 miles, slacken each head bolt in turn by 1/4 turn then retorque to 81lb.ft

Then turn the engine over to TDC on #1 and slacken the tensioner locknut (i'm assuming your tensioner is spring loaded, i can't remember from the photos) to allow the tensioner to take up the slack on the timing belt then tighten again.
On my last 740 with the B230E, the HG had been done some time before i bought it and shortly after it started showing HGF symptoms. I checked the bolts (hex headed as yours are so not stretch variety) and many of them were barely even 15lb.ft, never mind 44lb.ft - think i found 2 that turned slightly to take them up to 44lb.ft so i was lucky and caught it just in time.
Then i turned my attention to the timing belt which was so loose it could have easily jumped multiple teeth in one go! Laid the car up a couple of days while i ordered a new timing belt then fitted it, remembering at 600 miles to retension it this time!

Pleased to hear the RB is now doing what it says on the tin once more! Have you driven it any distance yet?

*** EDIT *** The information i got about the back axle on mine having a 96 tooth reluctor ring was from a USA site and similarly authoritative. However it failed to mention the front wheels also had 96 tooth rings, implying that the fronts were 48 teeth instead. After a lot of research i discovered that fact and was able to find 2 940 hubs that were otherwise shot but had good ABS reluctor rings on (48 teeth each) so i refurbished them after removing the rings from the hubs and fitted the 48 tooth rings to the front hubs on mine - ABS problem solved but all the bum steers i had during that saga were down to duff or incomplete info from USA sites.

The moral of the tale is that some (possibly more than some) USA sites don't always give the full information. Further into the article it said you couldn't fit a later axle to a 1988 760 (or 740) because the ABS wouldn't work and the speedo would read wrong.
It can be done and i've done it, my ABS works as it should (after a lot more research) and the speedo reads correctly - or at least as correctly as it did before.

Also since tweaking the mixture and now sorting the ABS, the economy has returned to at least what it was doing before the start of it all which was fitting the replacement axle.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I think i would play it as you suggest Alan, after 600 miles, slacken each head bolt in turn by 1/4 turn then retorque to 81lb.ft

Then turn the engine over to TDC on #1 and slacken the tensioner locknut (i'm assuming your tensioner is spring loaded, i can't remember from the photos) to allow the tensioner to take up the slack on the timing belt then tighten again.
On my last 740 with the B230E, the HG had been done some time before i bought it and shortly after it started showing HGF symptoms. I checked the bolts (hex headed as yours are so not stretch variety) and many of them were barely even 15lb.ft, never mind 44lb.ft - think i found 2 that turned slightly to take them up to 44lb.ft so i was lucky and caught it just in time.
Then i turned my attention to the timing belt which was so loose it could have easily jumped multiple teeth in one go! Laid the car up a couple of days while i ordered a new timing belt then fitted it, remembering at 600 miles to retension it this time!

Pleased to hear the RB is now doing what it says on the tin once more! Have you driven it any distance yet?

*** EDIT *** The information i got about the back axle on mine having a 96 tooth reluctor ring was from a USA site and similarly authoritative. However it failed to mention the front wheels also had 96 tooth rings, implying that the fronts were 48 teeth instead. After a lot of research i discovered that fact and was able to find 2 940 hubs that were otherwise shot but had good ABS reluctor rings on (48 teeth each) so i refurbished them after removing the rings from the hubs and fitted the 48 tooth rings to the front hubs on mine - ABS problem solved but all the bum steers i had during that saga were down to duff or incomplete info from USA sites.

The moral of the tale is that some (possibly more than some) USA sites don't always give the full information. Further into the article it said you couldn't fit a later axle to a 1988 760 (or 740) because the ABS wouldn't work and the speedo would read wrong.
It can be done and i've done it, my ABS works as it should (after a lot more research) and the speedo reads correctly - or at least as correctly as it did before.

Also since tweaking the mixture and now sorting the ABS, the economy has returned to at least what it was doing before the start of it all which was fitting the replacement axle.

I agree Dave, 600 miles would be a good time to check everything over, I'll probably do the head bolts, check the valve clearances (the hushers should have bedded in) and the cam belt (yes, it is the spring loaded type) at the same time.

Although this has been a little bit of faff, I don't really mind too much - it has given me a chance to check over a few more areas of the car and make sure they are okay.

Whilst there is a huge amount of information out there on the internet, some of it is either incomplete or contradictory as you say. The 5 times use thing sounds plausible (I don't think Mr Volvo meant 5 times literally - just change the bolts of they have to be re-tightened a few times).

The lock-down is relaxed a bit now, so I'm going to take the RB out for a 10-20 mile shake down whilst Dan finished his school work.

Stay aware,

Alan

[Clifford Pope]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

With most engines i've ever known with a cast iron block and alloy head, it's been necessary to renew the head bolts each time they're removed, due to designed in stretching. As far as i've always been aware, this is necessary to allow for different coefficients of linear thermal expansion which is why on engines with studs for the purpose of securing the head, the heads are cast iron, just like the block.




Yes and no, see above for a better explanation.

Interesting. But I'm sure I've seen engines with alloy heads and traditional studs. * I remember inspecting a beautiful XK120 engine, with alloy heads and cleaming rows of chromed domed nuts. How does a length of threaded studding "know" whether it has a separate nut or an integral nut on the end?
If the point is that the head has to "slide" a bit to accommodate a differential expansion factor then I'd have thought that just needed a slightly larger hole to accommodate movement?


* My Triumph Mayflower had a steel block, traditional studs, and an alloy head (albeit sidevalve)