hydrogen powered 240

[popuptoaster]

I think he meant "capiche"


not



or

[Gmac]

Oh that was brilliant popuptoaster, I've now dried my eyes and the pain in my stomach has subsided!

[brodgar]

anyone in need of the tel no of caprice????

with the car

[derek vivian]

I have a 1997 V90 and would like to know if I can get it converted to run on hydrogen. Anyone know if this is possible?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by derek vivian

I have a 1997 V90 and would like to know if I can get it converted to run on hydrogen. Anyone know if this is possible?

Not in any meaningful way. I suppose an internal combustion engine could run on hydrogen, but from where would you get the hydrogen and how would you store it?

If you read the thread above you probably realised it was bunkum.

Alan

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by derek vivian

I have a 1997 V90 and would like to know if I can get it converted to run on hydrogen. Anyone know if this is possible?

The answer is no it is not yet really possible. LPG is very possible and available, GNG is also possible but very hard to get in teh UK

[Laird Scooby]

Is this real hydrogen or Browns Gas aka "heavy" hydrogen?

It comes from the electrolysis of water and is produced by the battery in your car while charging as well as the canisters i assume (because i haven't read all the links) you have installed to produce the H-H-O or Browns Gas.

I looked into this some years ago and after doing some sums, realised it won't actually give the gains suggested, Granted it may appear you're getting twice the mpg but that energy has to come from somewhere to split the water molecules into two separate hydrogen and one oxygen molecule. This comes from your alternator and where does that get its energy from?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Is this real hydrogen or Browns Gas aka "heavy" hydrogen?

It comes from the electrolysis of water and is produced by the battery in your car while charging as well as the canisters i assume (because i haven't read all the links) you have installed to produce the H-H-O or Browns Gas.

I looked into this some years ago and after doing some sums, realised it won't actually give the gains suggested, Granted it may appear you're getting twice the mpg but that energy has to come from somewhere to split the water molecules into two separate hydrogen and one oxygen molecule. This comes from your alternator and where does that get its energy from?

Yes Dave, that is what the old thread above was about: using power from the alternator to do a bit of electrolysis, break some chemical bonds and then recombine them by burning them in the engine. If one thinks about it that is bunkum of course: the alternator will be rated at about 55w, which is about 1/10 HP, so that is the most one could get to do electrolysis (assuming the alternator wasn't doing anything else like charging the battery or powering the lights). Some of that would be lost in the process (heat in the conductors and the electrolyte mostly), so the process would not make any real contribution to internal combustion.

I had a feeling that derek vivian's question was more wide ranging, as to whether his motor could be converted to run on hydrogen that came from elsewhere. Hydrogen is of course available in cylinders as an industrial gas (I recall when I was a diver in the Army we used it is a really horrible torch called the Vixen for cutting metal plates underwater), but it is not widely available and is very difficult to store and use. I dare say an internal combustion engine could be converted to run on bottled hydrogen (as LPG) but the acquisition and storage problems (as well as convincing the government it was safe) would far outweigh any possible gains.

As an aside - I suspect hydrogen is the fuel of the future; the limiting factor for electric cars will be their rechargeable batteries, the physics of the problem means we won't be able to make them much better than we do now. The answer is probably to use surplus electrical energy (from solar, wind and nuclear) to make hydrogen (and oxygen) via electrolysis, solve the distribution and storage problems and then power vehicles by oxidising the hydrogen (probably in a fuel cell rather than internal combustion engine).

That is a way off yet, and in practice the answer to derek vivian's question is: no.

Interesting thought though.

Alan

PS. I notice that the OP (d_taddei2) suddenly disappeared not long after posting his Eureka! moment... I rather suspect that means the conversion he had paid for was indeed bogus.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

If one thinks about it that is bunkum of course: the alternator will be rated at about 55w, which is about 1/10 HP, so that is the most one could get to do electrolysis (assuming the alternator wasn't doing anything else like charging the battery or powering the lights). Some of that would be lost in the process (heat in the conductors and the electrolyte mostly), so the process would not make any real contribution to internal combustion.

I had a feeling that derek vivian's question was more wide ranging, as to whether his motor could be converted to run on hydrogen that came from elsewhere. Hydrogen is of course available in cylinders as an industrial gas (I recall when I was a diver in the Army we used it is a really horrible torch called the Vixen for cutting metal plates underwater), but it is not widely available and is very difficult to store and use. I dare say an internal combustion engine could be converted to run on bottled hydrogen (as LPG) but the acquisition and storage problems (as well as convincing the government it was safe) would far outweigh any possible gains.

As an aside - I suspect hydrogen is the fuel of the future; the limiting factor for electric cars will be their rechargeable batteries, the physics of the problem means we won't be able to make them much better than we do now. The answer is probably to use surplus electrical energy (from solar, wind and nuclear) to make hydrogen (and oxygen) via electrolysis, solve the distribution and storage problems and then power vehicles by oxidising the hydrogen (probably in a fuel cell rather than internal combustion engine).

That is a way off yet, and in practice the answer to derek vivian's question is: no.

Interesting thought though.

Alan

PS. I notice that the OP (d_taddei2) suddenly disappeared not long after posting his Eureka! moment... I rather suspect that means the conversion he had paid for was indeed bogus.

Alternators are a bit beefier than 55W Alan or they would only run a headlight bulb.

If you check the alternator on your RB, you'll find it has a rating sticker, i can't remember if we've discussed this in your thread but let's say it's 14V 70A. That's 980W so about 1.3kW.
However, on a modern EFi engine, ~20-30A is used to run the injection system, fuel pump, igniton system etc and when first started, about 30-40A direct to the battery for recharging. That swallows up 50-70A so there may only be 4A available for the electrolysis which at 14V would be 56W so your figures aren't actually that far out.

That isn't going to produce a viable amount of H-H-O so won't contribute greatly to the economy of the engine.

Obviously once the battery is replenished, more current is available for other things but still not the amount of hydrogen necessary for a sensible improvement.

I also believe hydrogen is the fuel of the future, petrolheads like me will want to do a fuel conversion on their engines (maybe not the most efficient use of it) while others will want to use it to create electricity to power their milk-floats on steroids in pretty skirts (EVs) but it's all still a long way off and certainly at the present time, very costly.

For now, i'll settle for an LPG conversion and the effect of basically halving my running costs.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Alternators are a bit beefier than 55W Alan or they would only run a headlight bulb.

If you check the alternator on your RB, you'll find it has a rating sticker, i can't remember if we've discussed this in your thread but let's say it's 14V 70A. That's 980W so about 1.3kW.
However, on a modern EFi engine, ~20-30A is used to run the injection system, fuel pump, igniton system etc and when first started, about 30-40A direct to the battery for recharging. That swallows up 50-70A so there may only be 4A available for the electrolysis which at 14V would be 56W so your figures aren't actually that far out.

That isn't going to produce a viable amount of H-H-O so won't contribute greatly to the economy of the engine.

Obviously once the battery is replenished, more current is available for other things but still not the amount of hydrogen necessary for a sensible improvement.

I also believe hydrogen is the fuel of the future, petrolheads like me will want to do a fuel conversion on their engines (maybe not the most efficient use of it) while others will want to use it to create electricity to power their milk-floats on steroids in pretty skirts (EVs) but it's all still a long way off and certainly at the present time, very costly.

For now, i'll settle for an LPG conversion and the effect of basically halving my running costs.

Eeeek! 55A not 55w (that is the RB's alternator) - must be the dementia again. That makes my alternator about 1 HP, which doesn't really change the price of fish. The most one could gain from making a bit of hydrogen would be somewhat less than 1 HP, which is not going to halve anyone's fuel consumption.

More widely about hydrogen - yes, it probably is the future as a good way of storing electricity (of which we may well have an abundance from the surpluses of solar/wind/nuclear when supply exceeds demand). How we distribute, store locally and use it is another question of course.

Alan