What's the problem with electric cars?

[Tannaton]

Some like me may be old enough to remember that there did used to be an additional 10% car purchase tax that you paid when you bought a new car, including all options, and in addition to VAT. This was reduced to 5% and then abolished in the economic downturn in the early 1990's. I remember seeing it on the invoice when I bought my Countach. Did I say Countach? Sorry I meant Citroen AX.

By ramping up the VED in the first few years on expensive new cars, they have re-introduced this by stealth.

Expect further significant intrusions into your wallet by HMG over the coming years as revenue from fuel duty falls off as more people use EV's. They will want to focus tax on ownership and use rather than purchase to save face with the industry heavyweights.

[Whippy]

Embrace pay per mile, it's coming.

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

In saying that, I do believe electric cars should pay road tax and it should be a fair amount... they shouldn't be free. ICE car owners are being screwed, whilst the electric crew whizz around paying nothing.

ICE car owners arent being screwed, only the vehicles who do legitimately produce lots of CO2. there are lots of ICE cars which pay zero or very little, so why should people who have decided to go electric be punished and pay a LOT more than most other ICE car tax at a rate of £180 per year, i am not saying paying zero, but £180 is a lot, and expecially applying it retrospectivly (on all electric cars already on the road, not just new cars registered on or after April 2025). I am sure many ICE owners would soon start grumbling if you were paying £0, £10, £30 etc and now have to pay £180.

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

ICE car owners arent being screwed, only the vehicles who do legitimately produce lots of CO2. there are lots of ICE cars which pay zero or very little, so why should people who have decided to go electric be punished and pay a LOT more than most other ICE car tax at a rate of £180 per year, i am not saying paying zero, but £180 is a lot, and expecially applying it retrospectivly (on all electric cars already on the road, not just new cars registered on or after April 2025). I am sure many ICE owners would soon start grumbling if you were paying £0, £10, £30 etc and now have to pay £180.

Yes, road tax is based on CO2 and those that own the most polluting pay more. For a start they high fuel prices for petrol and diesel. Electric owners don't have to put fuel in, they charge at home or at a public charge point. Even though public charges are expensive, its still a fraction of the cost of what a conventional ICE car would take at the pump to do the same journey. Depending on what tariff you've got, you can charge at home for as little as 8p per kw overnight. You can't get petrol or diesel for that price.

ICE car owners have been paying higher road tax for years, and, it has been increasing year on year. Electric cars have been free, many ICE owners have been paying anything from £35 per year up to £675 (depending on the car they've got). Some ICE cars are free, but they're few and far between in the scale of things. Hybrid's have been £10 per annum for a long time now.

So how are ICE vehicle owners not being screwed? Let's take my car for example... £365 per year to tax. Let's just do a 5 year example... In 5 years, it costs £1,825 just in road tax, then there's the fuel price on top of that. The electric car currently is zero? Where's the fairness in that? You pay £900, I pay £1,800... half the price. I still have to add fuel to that figure, which I guarantee is much higher than your electric costs.

Naturally, if you've been used to paying nothing for your electric car, then it will be a big jump... that I understand. It was only a matter of time before electric cars were charged to be on the road.

As you have no high fuel costs to pay like an ICE driver would, I don't think half price road tax is that bad of a deal. Electric cars themselves may not emit harmful pollutants, but they don't run on fresh air either. The electric has to be produced at power plants, which emit CO2. To produce the electric that charges your car, there's CO2 being produced. Even renewable energy isn't totally green. Electric cars don't run on fresh air.

Let's not forget that its highly likely that ICE vehicle tax will increase even more than it already is. Also, non-compliant cars in ULEZ zones have been paying a congestion charge and a ULEZ fee daily (if they drive in it). Electric cars have been free, so no ULEZ charge or congestion charge. Why no congestion charge for them to date... they still take up space on the road like an ICE car does? ULEZ compliant cars don't pay a ULEZ charge, but they still pay a congestion fee.

So there's another spanner to add to the mix. Not only is road tax higher on an ICE car, fuel also is and ulez charges (if non-compliant), plus congestion charges. Electric cars had zero charges... no road tax, no ulez fee and no congestion charge.

The train has ran out of steam. £180 is still cheap, considering what an ICE owner has had to pay!!!

[Moose Test]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

ICE car owners arent being screwed, only the vehicles who do legitimately produce lots of CO2.

As the owner of 4.4L V8 you perhaps won't be surprised that I respectfully disagree.

In absolute terms, I cover *very* few miles in a year compared to the average and so directly contribute much less CO2 to the atmosphere than the average ICE driver and, quite probably, high(er) mileage EV driver. Yet I'm expected to pay over 700 GBP per year. That doesn't strike me as being particularly fair, if the point is to make those that do the most environmental damage pay the most.

And that's before we consider the emissions from building new vehicles as opposed to the continued use of one that's sixteen years old.

My view is that we've reached a point in time wherein there should be a flat rate for all vehicles over three years old and damage is paid for at the pump, or at the charger, reflecting actual environmental impact rather then theoretical relative harm.

[Thekilt]

I agree whole heartedly regarding a flat rate, that’s what I mentioned earlier in another post. What I am stating is it’s unfair when you purchase a car with £x tax, whether that be Kevs £365 or Moose’s £700 ah year. Now you find out next year Kev’s will be £500 and Moos’s will be £1000? How would you feel about that?

[GMcL]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

Yes, road tax is based on CO2 and those that own the most polluting pay more. For a start they high fuel prices for petrol and diesel. Electric owners don't have to put fuel in, they charge at home or at a public charge point. Even though public charges are expensive, its still a fraction of the cost of what a conventional ICE car would take at the pump to do the same journey. Depending on what tariff you've got, you can charge at home for as little as 8p per kw overnight. You can't get petrol or diesel for that price.

A gallon of diesel has around 46kW of energy. A typical home charge of our EV is around 42kWh for which we pay €16,80. I think if you were paying a comparible €18.40 per gallon then you could talk parity. You can't penalise EV drivers because a diesel engine is only 30% efficient at moving the car compared with 95% efficiency from an electric motor.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by GMcL

A gallon of diesel has around 46kW of energy. A typical home charge of our EV is around 42kWh for which we pay €16,80. I think if you were paying a comparible €18.40 per gallon then you could talk parity. You can't penalise EV drivers because a diesel engine is only 30% efficient at moving the car compared with 95% efficiency from an electric motor.

Misleading...

Yes a gallon of diesel has the equivalent of 46kw of energy in it.

Diesel engines in modern cars are north of 40% efficiency now, petrol being in the 30's.

Take electric. More electric is generated by Gas in the UK than any other method. The thermal efficiency of a Gas power station is circa 48%.

Then you have circa 6% loss accross the National Grid - so 45%.

Then you have the efficiency of the charging and discharge cycle of an EV which is accepted to be circa 77%.

So in terms of full cycle efficiency - fuel to miles - EV's are circa 34%.

Now before anyone else points it out, obviously the gas in a power station comes "off grid" and I haven't tried to account for the inefficiency of diesel beign moved by road - but the point is EVs, unless we have mostly renewables, are not the cleanest of machines that some would think....

[GMcL]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

Misleading...

Yes a gallon of diesel has the equivalent of 46kw of energy in it.

Diesel engines in modern cars are north of 40% efficiency now, petrol being in the 30's.

Take electric. More electric is generated by Gas in the UK than any other method. The thermal efficiency of a Gas power station is circa 48%.

Then you have circa 6% loss accross the National Grid - so 45%.

Then you have the efficiency of the charging and discharge cycle of an EV which is accepted to be circa 77%.

So in terms of full cycle efficiency - fuel to miles - EV's are circa 34%.

That's misleading too. Gas is 55% efficient, grid loss is between 8-15%, charging loss is between 10 & 12% between the wall and the battery in the car.

As you are counting the transport from power station to the house you need to factor in the HGV fuel consumption taking the fuel from the refinery to the fuel station.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by GMcL

That's misleading too. Gas is 55% efficient, grid loss is between 8-15%, charging loss is between 10 & 12% between the wall and the battery in the car.

As you are counting the transport from power station to the house you need to factor in the HGV fuel consumption taking the fuel from the refinery to the fuel station.

National Grid's statistics for Gas are 48% to 49% depending on what report you read. Your grid loss figure is higher than I thought.... charging loss may be 10-12% but there is a further loss on discharging, and losses in the motors and control electronics that give an overall plug to miles efficiency of 77%.

We could debate this all night, and likely neither of us would have the actual correct figures as of today, but the point stands up I think.