What's the problem with electric cars?

[GMcL]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

National Grid's statistics for Gas are 48% to 49% depending on what report you read. Your grid loss figure is higher than I thought.... charging loss may be 10-12% but there is a further loss on discharging, and losses in the motors and control electronics that give an overall plug to miles efficiency of 77%.

We could debate this all night, and likely neither of us would have the actual correct figures as of today, but the point stands up I think.

True, but you have to compare like with like. The fuel in the fuel station has an overhead just as the electricity has an overhead to the plug wherever the car is charging.

46kW of energy will move our EV 191 miles on average based on the numbers from the last 3⅐ years. 46kW (a gallon) of diesel moves my S60 D3 a best 65 miles over the last 10+ years I've had the car. Yes, I could probably better that but I don't hyper mile either car.

[Moose Test]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

I agree whole heartedly regarding a flat rate, that’s what I mentioned earlier in another post. What I am stating is it’s unfair when you purchase a car with £x tax, whether that be Kevs £365 or Moose’s £700 ah year. Now you find out next year Kev’s will be £500 and Moos’s will be £1000? How would you feel about that?

Much as yourself I imagine, deeply unimpressed. And as I imagine those who bought diesel vehicles because it was regarded as the right thing to do felt, right up until it wasn't and they found their vehicles were no longer welcome in our major cities without extortionate fees they never saw coming.

In both cases we have governments of the time to blame who chose to use taxation as a blunt instrument to effect rapid change, without a good understanding of all of the long terms affects those changes might actually bring with them.

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by GMcL

A gallon of diesel has around 46kW of energy. A typical home charge of our EV is around 42kWh for which we pay €16,80. I think if you were paying a comparible €18.40 per gallon then you could talk parity. You can't penalise EV drivers because a diesel engine is only 30% efficient at moving the car compared with 95% efficiency from an electric motor.

Its not penalising though. Why should all EV vehicles pay no road tax, no ulez charges, no congestion charges (up to date), yet ICE driver's have to foot the bill with high fuel prices, higher road tax etc etc. That's not fair either.

Originally Posted by Thekilt

I agree whole heartedly regarding a flat rate, that’s what I mentioned earlier in another post. What I am stating is it’s unfair when you purchase a car with £x tax, whether that be Kevs £365 or Moose’s £700 ah year. Now you find out next year Kev’s will be £500 and Moos’s will be £1000? How would you feel about that?

I wouldn't be happy, but I expect it will come. The Government will literally force older cars off the road with high road tax and ULEZ expansions... its already happening. If EV's are going to be £180 a year, I dread to think what an old diesel or petrol will be in years to come.

Those that thought they could drive around in an EV and pay nothing were clearly mistaken. For years they've had no road tax, no hefty fuel pump prices (remember when it was £2 a litre for diesel?), no congestion charges and no ulez fees. So as hard a pill as it may be to swallow, ICE owners have been used to paying, whereas EV owners haven't paid a thing (apart from home/public charging). It will come as a big shock to EV owner's, but look at the bigger picture with regards to what ICE owner's have had to pay.

If people want more places to charge their EV's that actually work (away from home), the money has to come from somewhere at the end of the day.

With regards to a flat rate. It does sound like a good idea, but what's a fair flate rate? There's a lot of things to take into account. That would mean that the person who does 50,000 a year pays the same as someone who does 5k, regardless of whether they're in a 3 tonne SUV or a Smart car.

Pay per mile may make more sense in that respect.

[Moose Test]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

Pay per mile may make more sense in that respect.

Indeed. And we have everything in place for that and have done so for years. It's called fuel duty.

[Moomoo]

[QUOTE=Moose Test;2940789]Indeed. And we have everything in place for that and have done so for years. It's called fuel duty.[/QUOTE

Agreed!


The pay per mile would soon become, pay more per mile depending on the time of day.

A bit like the real reason for so called, Smart Meters!

[GMcL]

[QUOTE=Moomoo;2940797]

Originally Posted by Moose Test

Indeed. And we have everything in place for that and have done so for years. It's called fuel duty.[/QUOTE

Agreed!


The pay per mile would soon become, pay more per mile depending on the time of day.

A bit like the real reason for so called, Smart Meters!

Isn't that how it works today with trains, planes, ferries, Eurotunnel ? You travel at peak times you pay a premium.

[Moomoo]

[QUOTE=GMcL;2940799]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

Isn't that how it works today with trains, planes, ferries, Eurotunnel ? You travel at peak times you pay a premium.

You’re right. It doesn’t mean I have to like it!🤨

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

I wouldn't be happy, but I expect it will come. The Government will literally force older cars off the road with high road tax and ULEZ expansions... its already happening. If EV's are going to be £180 a year, I dread to think what an old diesel or petrol will be in years to come.

Taxing old cars "because they pollute and are dangerous" is a political statement they'd love to make alongside "speed cameras because speeding is dangerous", but the problem with the old cars is that there really aren't that many of them, and the numbers reduce as time goes by. Introducing schemes to extract money can easily cost more than the money they extract.

I honestly think that's why it hasn't happened a lot more in a lot more places ... NSW in Straya even has the opposite, where if you're in a car club & you subscribe to the scheme you can pay 10% of our equivalent of MoT if your car's over 25 years old (I think it's 25). I really don't think they'd have done that if they'd thought they could've scored more political points at less cost to charge more.

Originally Posted by Moose Test

Indeed. And we have everything in place for that and have done so for years. It's called fuel duty.

Yep. If they ditched that and replaced it with equivalent per-distance charges for vehicle registration I'd have no problem with that ... except people would tinker with the odo, so that would become even more illegal than it is now & security would be too hard so all cars would have to send all their data (including the current speed-limit & current speed) back to the Central Billing Agency.

[GMcL]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

You’re right. It doesn’t mean I have to like it!🤨

It's not a question of being right or wrong. The whole UK economy is London/SE centric, more and more people move there, the government sets policy for the whole country to fix a problem in one area. That and regional councils are potless, public services need funding or cutting, central government prioritising NI cuts over public service funding. Give with one hand, take with the other.

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Moose Test

Indeed. And we have everything in place for that and have done so for years. It's called fuel duty.

...Which will have a massive void in it. According to Government, lost fuel duty could get to around £25-£35 billion when EV's become the norm (if they ever do). Then people wonder why EV's are going to be taxed as of 2025... there's your answer. Its to fill that gap, which alone will generate £7 billion.

There's been talk of a pay per mile system being introduced here, not with fuel duty or higher prices at the pumps per se, but motorists being charged x amount based on how many miles they do per year and using this type of scheme to replace annual road tax. So the more miles you do, the more you pay. Nothing confirmed yet, but there's been discussions about it. I know we have a pay per mile system in a way already with fuel duty, but this will be different (if implemented).

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/fue...ost-fuel-duty/

I found an interesting comment on this site;

"For those wondering how road pricing might work, consider the following:

All new vehicles sold in the EU and UK after March 2018 (and no doubt vehicles manufactured prior to that date) have been required to have an embedded eSIM to allow the vehicle to communicate over 2G, 3G and 4G mobile telephone networks. The integration of the telematics to the vehicle's operating system presents opportunities for central government to receive mileage, positional data and VIN number".

It doesn't take a genius to work out how the government will start taxing vehicles per mile."

Another comment;

"This is so wrong on so many levels.

Measuring use by mileage favours those with huge vehicles using the most energy and doing the most damage to the roads regardless of what energy type is used.

The simplest and fairest method would be to scrap the current system and add the tax to petrol, diesel and electric charging points.

Much simpler, much fairer, no tracking, no infrastructure changes. Pensioners who pop down the shops once a week pay little. People who choose huge unnecessary vehicles pay most.

If there is a worry that this would be a problem for road goods transport, just put trackers on those vehicles and have a rebate system tailored to encourage less energy using and damaging vehicles.

An added bonus would be visitors to the UK would also contribute for their use."

https://www.cinch.co.uk/news/pay-per...uk--everything

I read on another site (can't remember which) that there could be a free mileage allowance based on your Post Code, but it would be higher for those living in rural areas. Also, extra charges for peak time driving to help reduce congestion. Not confirmed, just speculation now.

Thoughts?

-Pay per mile? Or...
-Flat rate road tax for all vehicles (electric, petrol, hybrid and diesel), regardless of the miles they do? (probably means more expensive road tax) Or...
-Higher prices at the pumps/charging points?

The Government will, no doubt, find a way to fill the money they're losing on fuel duty. Its only a matter of time before a big change comes. We just don't know what it is, yet.