What's the problem with electric cars?

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Interesting that you see diesel cars emitting clouds of black smoke. When, since Euro five came into force they've all been fitted with EGR and DPF filters. My diesel doesn't emit ANY smoke.

So there's that.

Will its not "So theres that" really is it. Yes your car may not be bellowing out the black soot, but there are plenty of other invisible particulates. Plenty of Vans, tracks and older Diesels are the worst offenders. Where's your "So theres that" comment response to this?

Both petrol and diesel cars regardless of Euro regs emit fumes that are proven to be harmful to people and increasing asthma in children. What are we to do? carry on driving around polluting cars with harmful fumes to everyone, or actually do something about it? theres no denying it that in built up areas fumes (not only vehicles on the road but air and trains) are to blame but trains and planes are more difficult to resolve straight away.

[Whippy]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

Will its not "So theres that" really is it. Yes your car may not be bellowing out the black soot, but there are plenty of other invisible particulates. Plenty of Vans, tracks and older Diesels are the worst offenders. Where's your "So theres that" comment response to this?

Both petrol and diesel cars regardless of Euro regs emit fumes that are proven to be harmful to people and increasing asthma in children. What are we to do? carry on driving around polluting cars with harmful fumes to everyone, or actually do something about it? theres no denying it that in built up areas fumes (not only vehicles on the road but air and trains) are to blame but trains and planes are more difficult to resolve straight away.

Well, with particulates all filtered out and NOX taken care of there's not a lot coming out of a modern car. Then there's all the harmful emissions coming from the mining of the lithium for your shiny new Tesla, not to mention the pollution caused be making a new car to put it in.
Old cars n vans, yes, some are still old enough to cause a problem but time is taking care of that.
And statements about belching black smoke is just fear mongering.

So there's that on top.

[The Thong]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

This was one of the main reasons i went electric. My daughter suffered horrifically with breathing issues when she was younger, in and out of hospitals, and at one point being in intensive care for a week on a ventilator. When you walk with children along a footpath and see the amount of particulates from exhausts, and the worst being the soot from Diesel cars right in their faces, you might as well have them smoking at that age. Its disgraceful and a lot of people dont notice it when walking with our heads at 5-6 ft above the floor. With kids heads anywhere from 2ft to 4ft they are a lot more exposed. Yes i agree its shifting the problem of emmissions elsewhere (at power stations etc) however there is ongoing improvements to capute the carbon (carbon capture projects) which is easier to do at a single point. Imagine trying to capture all the exhaust fumes of vehicles?

To see what its like for kids, try walking on your hands and knees on the pavement, or sit on a skateboard. it wont be long until you see the effects of vehicle fumes on kids.

As a former trainee diesel fitter having some leave a truck ticking over in the garage it soon builds up down at ground level when you’re underneath another vehicle nearby. In a lot of ways ICE vehicles have been the best they’ve ever been and the worst they’ve ever been too. My Crosstrek has a Cat, EGR, Particulate Filter plus an electric motor. Short of running it on neat ethanol or LPG there’s not much more than can be done to make it cleaner unless some new tech gets added. Likewise my 2017 D4 V60 CC, there was no evidence of soot around the exhaust system. It was from what I could see quite a “clean” engine for an oiler. The side effect of all this atmospheric improving measures is making ICE units less reliable.
Then again, you can’t put a price on people’s health either. I’m seeing more and more towns and cities having buildings shoehorned into every available nook and cranny which makes you wonder how it affects the air quality as a whole and most importantly, is it being taken into account?

I’m an asthma sufferer myself but I don’t suffer too badly due to air quality. But fine particles like house dust, pollen and the suchlike knock me about though. It gets worse when pollution attaches itself to the pollen spores making them worse. This is when my asthma jumps up a couple of gears.

It’s actually amazing these days how sensitive we’ve become to pollution from cars now the modern ones are less polluting. Like said in a previous post, when an old car comes by I can really smell the emissions. There’s a gulf of a difference compared to modern motors. It’s not just exhaust though, it’s tire wear, brake dust too that gets blown about as the cars are rumbling by. That’ll be a tougher one to get rid of in the short term.

Hope your Daughter is well,

TT

[The Thong]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Well, with particulates all filtered out and NOX taken care of there's not a lot coming out of a modern car. Then there's all the harmful emissions coming from the mining of the lithium for your shiny new Tesla, not to mention the pollution caused be making a new car to put it in.
Old cars n vans, yes, some are still old enough to cause a problem but time is taking care of that.
And statements about belching black smoke is just fear mongering.

So there's that on top.

Recycling is the next mountain to crack. Another future issue to overcome, the clean and energy efficient disposal and recycling of those battery packs.

TT

[Existential Crisis]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

Its not rising at a lower rate. That video shows the figures when ULEZ was introduced in central London and then what the figures are now after the expansion... guess what? Its gone up. So ULEZ isn't actually doing anything. There's compliant cars (95% are "clean) according to Sadiq Khan, so why isn't it going down? Wasn't that the whole point of ULEZ, to lower the emissions?

95% of the cars going into London and the surrounding areas are compliant according to Sadiq Khan, yet emissions are rising. Maybe they need to look at the number of cars on the road, as opposed to charging people to drive cars that aren't compliant, but in the real scale of things don't make a bit of difference to emissions levels.

London underground is the problem, then let's not forget the airports. Not much point having a low emission zone across London and a jumbo jet taking off, which omits more emissions than goodness knows how many cars put together. No, I'm not saying stop the planes... I'm saying rethink the whole thing. Volume of cars is the issue and the underground is literally toxic (much worse than above ground). Maybe TFL could invest some of the £338 million they got from ULEZ into that instead.

As we seem to be talking around in circles, I'll bow out man. Have a wonderful day, take care, a pleasure to chat with you!!

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Existential Crisis

As we seem to be talking around in circles, I'll bow out man. Have a wonderful day, take care, a pleasure to chat with you!!

As you please...

Same to you.

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Well, with particulates all filtered out and NOX taken care of there's not a lot coming out of a modern car. Then there's all the harmful emissions coming from the mining of the lithium for your shiny new Tesla, not to mention the pollution caused be making a new car to put it in.
Old cars n vans, yes, some are still old enough to cause a problem but time is taking care of that.
And statements about belching black smoke is just fear mongering.

So there's that on top.

Sit down in front your exhaust for and hour and see how you feel…

[Whippy]

Well, I'd probably feel like I could reliably construct a short forum post without it causing me a problem. You??

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Well, I'd probably feel like I could reliably construct a short forum post without it causing me a problem. You??

Euro 5 isnt as great as you may think, and due to the amount of NOx being emited would knock you out within about 20 minutes. Euro 5 standards for NOx emissions are 0.18g/km and Euro 6 reduces that down to 0.08g/km.

Most studies base their levels on ppm, which 0.08g equates to approx 80ppm. Transfering g/km to a sensible unit of measurement for exposure is tricky, as g/km for exhaust emissions depends on multiple factors with RPM and ambient temperature being the biggest factor with cars.

exposure above 150ppm for 30 minutes to an hour cuases fatal pulmonary edema. 150ppm equates to 0.15 grams. So you can see with the figures that it wouldnt be long with Euro 5 to cause some fatal issues. Euro 6 taking longer, but still fatal.

Taking it back to my argument of the impact on children and other low level people/animals such as dogs. walking along a road to School for example, taking 30 minutes, twice a day, 5 times a week with all maners of vehicles ranging in quality standards, and you can understand how NOx, plus all the others such as Carbon monoxide, Hydro carbons, Particulate matter can all have an impact.

Add this to the other examples of built up areas restricting air flow, overland and underground trains, planes, and other appliances producing emissions it creates a harmful atmosphere.

[GMcL]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

Euro 5 isnt as great as you may think, and due to the amount of NOx being emited would knock you out within about 20 minutes. Euro 5 standards for NOx emissions are 0.18g/km and Euro 6 reduces that down to 0.08g/km.

Most studies base their levels on ppm, which 0.08g equates to approx 80ppm. Transfering g/km to a sensible unit of measurement for exposure is tricky, as g/km for exhaust emissions depends on multiple factors with RPM and ambient temperature being the biggest factor with cars.

exposure above 150ppm for 30 minutes to an hour cuases fatal pulmonary edema. 150ppm equates to 0.15 grams. So you can see with the figures that it wouldnt be long with Euro 5 to cause some fatal issues. Euro 6 taking longer, but still fatal.

Taking it back to my argument of the impact on children and other low level people/animals such as dogs. walking along a road to School for example, taking 30 minutes, twice a day, 5 times a week with all maners of vehicles ranging in quality standards, and you can understand how NOx, plus all the others such as Carbon monoxide, Hydro carbons, Particulate matter can all have an impact.

Add this to the other examples of built up areas restricting air flow, overland and underground trains, planes, and other appliances producing emissions it creates a harmful atmosphere.

Those numbers are in their concentrate form, measured in the exhaust, they are diluted once out in the wild. Of course vehicles are one of many polluters, they are infinitely cleaner than 50 years ago. I walked to school past buses and trucks belching out the black stuff moving off from standstill.

Telling someone to break the law to prove your point doesn't help the argument. Try licking the plug you put into your car for 5 minutes is just as ridiculous.