1800: best cam shaft

[powen1]

Originally Posted by Burdekin

85nm plus loctite was the spec from Tinus Tuning I was given.

Tinus Tuning Cam Instructions / running in:
The running-in of your camshaft is crucial ensures correct running-in of the cam followers and cams.
Step 1:
Mount the camshaft with the cams generously lubricated with the supplied running-in paste. The bearing surfaces do not need to be lubricated. Install new cam followers with the bottom of the
cam follower (the tread) is also generously provided with running-in paste. Provide the sides and the bores of oil. Pour a little oil on top of the cam followers after placing them in the block so that the
'cups' in which the push rods stand are well lubricated. Then assemble the remaining engine parts in accordance with regulations. An exception is the camshaft nut : fit it with 85 Nm and locktite.
Make sure there is enough oil in the engine. Use good quality normal oil * (no break-in oil). Make sure that the oil is sufficiently 'fresh': not older than roughly 2000 km or 1 year.

Step 2:
Start the engine and go straight to the rev range between 2000 and 3000 rpm. This is crucial! The need lies in the fact that the cam followers must rotate properly to be able to run into the cams correctly, and
also so that sufficient splash lubrication from the crankshaft and return oil from the rocker arms reaches the camshaft. Too low or too high speeds can be disastrous for running-in of the cam followers and camshaft. Keeps the engine then approximately 15 minutes in this speed range, while varying well. You can also start driving immediately, as long as the correct speed range is maintained.

Step 3:
After the first critical break-in period of approximately 15 minutes, you should check the valve clearance. Then you can start driving. Do not let the engine idle for too long for the first 100 km. Ten seconds
does not hurt, but longer should be avoided.
During the running-in (first 200 km) you should consider the following aspects:
-Do not let the engine idle for more than half a minute.
-Do not make more than approx. 4000 rpm.

Step 4:
After roughly 100 km: Let the engine cool down completely so that you can retighten the head bolts:
- B18 / 20/30 with normal head bolts: loosen one by one and tighten to 95 Nm. If with ARP
threaded ends: do not loosen first, but immediately retighten to 95 Nm. Follow the order below and immediately check the valve clearance:

If necessary, you can immediately change the engine oil * + filter. That way you don't just delete microscopic fine metal swarf from the camshaft / cam followers, but especially any dirt that accidentally enters the
engine ended up at the camshaft change. If you have some walk-in paste left, you can do that after the first oil change through the new oil to protect the new camshaft and cam followers.
* Always provide oil with sufficient Zinc / Phosphorus additive (Zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate / ZDDP).

Thanks, I think its D or K for me with a 0.8mm gasket
Im getting new cam with followers as well, was going to use existing push rods.
I did actually change the head gasket a little while ago and all new gaskets - but I think maybe just getting another complete head gasket kit may be better as I will need new rubber seals for water pump etc. unless anyone has reused the old ones before?
going for the steel/alloy timing kit
Thanks

[powen1]

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

If you are interested in lowest cost, the K cam will probably be a nicer choice than the D cam. The lift is the same; but, the duration 'out at the edges' is a little less than the D cam. Total area under the profile curve is less than a D; but, not by very much. If you are running SU carbs and how the engine idles and transitions off of idle matters to you the K will be a better choice. Because of its slightly lower overlap the K cam will provide a much better manifold vacuum at idle and SU carbs seem to idle better with a high manifold vacuum. If the SUs are set up to give yu the correct fuel mixture right now you can probably make the transition to a K cam with no / minimal fiddling. It might idle faster than before and you may need to tweak the idle settings a bit for perfection.

As noted, the head has to come off in order to remove the pushrods and lifters so that the cam can be removed. It is unlikely that your cam and lifters are original; but, if they are the lifters will be garbage and need to be replaced. Examine the cam contact surface of the lifters. Vintage lifters had a metallurgical problem which resulted in spalling of the lifter surface. If your lifter surface shows signs of spalling they are definitely garbage. If they look OK, then you get to make the decision as to whether you want to reuse them.

Some comments on head gaskets. The B20E had a nominal 10.5:1 compression ratio and used a head gasket that had a compressed thickness of 0.028". The B20E head gasket is out of production. The head gasket kits that are listed for the B20E are in fact B20F head gaskets which have a nominal compressed thickness of 0.047" (nominal 1.2 mm). Unless you want to fork over more money for a Cometic MLS gasket the preferred gasket to use is the B20B head gasket from Elring. These fit the B20E head just fine and originally a B20B gasket would have a compressed thickness of 0.028"; but, the Elring B20B gasket has a compressed thickness more like 0.034" which appears to line up with the advertised thickness of 0.8 mm.

If you want to avoid having a detonation fest in your engine, you want the distance between the top or your piston and the quench pads in the combustion chamber (the flat parts of the head that protrude into the cylinder) to be around 0.032". Going to an F gasket increases the clearance and greatly reduces / eliminates the effectiveness of the quench zone. This requires a lower compression ratio and / or less ignition advance to avoid detonation. The original B20E gasket would seem to be a little tight in term of the quench clearance; but, when you pull the head on your B20E you will find that the pistons do not come to the top of the bores. They will sit about 0.020" below the cylinder deck at TDC and for good measure none of them will be the same. So, reality is that a B20E coming out of the factory probably had a quench depth averaging 0.020 + 0.028 = 0.048" which is very sub optimal and is probably why the B20E required high octane fuel when modern engines run 10.5:1 on regular fuel without much issue. If you are doing a complete engine build you would machine the block surface and machine the crowns of the pistons so that all pistons were absolutely flush with the tops of the bores. With the Elring B gasket this would give you a quench depth of 0.034" and most builders are happy with that. I know of at least one individual who would measure and then send the block back to the machine shop to take an additional 0.002- 0.003 off the block surface so the piston crowns sat above the deck and he got the magic 0.032" number with an Elring gasket. I have read some people claiming that the B20E with a D cam with correct quench depth will run regular or mid grade fuel without detonating and will require a total ignition advance of only 32 deg to achieve peak power.

The reason that any of this matters to you is that if you stray from the D or K cam, the engines current compression ratio may be sub optimal. If you go to a shorter duration camshaft you may want to drop the static compression ratio. The point of the preceding is that you should not do this by fitting a thicker gasket. That will lower the static compression ratio; but, it will also reduce / eliminate the quench effect which will make your engine much more prone to detonation. The correct way to reduce the compression ratio while maintaining some semblance of quench effect is to increase the volume of the combustion chambers by grinding out some metal. That is not an activity for fools because it requires grind, measure, grind, measure, repeat to get the correct volume on all 4 combustion chambers.

Replacement with a D or K cam using the Elriing B20B head gasket will be the easiest path. I think the K cam might actually be the nicer cam in terms of how it drives, particularly with the SU carbs. If you want to experiment with something different, I suggest that you email Tinus Tuning and ask what he suggests. Let him know that you have a B20E currently running SU carbs and indicate whether you are willing to alter the compression ratio and what octane rating fuel you are prepared to use. He may give you a different take on running a thicker head gasket with his cams; but, that may require a fuel with an octane rating higher than the 91 ( (R+M)/2 =91 definition) that I have access to.

Thanks very good info

[142 Guy]

Originally Posted by powen1

Thanks, I think its D or K for me with a 0.8mm gasket
Im getting new cam with followers as well, was going to use existing push rods.
I did actually change the head gasket a little while ago and all new gaskets - but I think maybe just getting another complete head gasket kit may be better as I will need new rubber seals for water pump etc. unless anyone has reused the old ones before?
going for the steel/alloy timing kit
Thanks

I should probably clarify my previous comment about the B20E head gasket being out of production.

The 'correct' B20E gasket is part number 419763. In the factory service manual, both it and the B20B gasket (419310) are listed with a thickness of 0.8mm / 0.031" uninstalled compressing to 0.028" installed. The later B20F gasket is part number 462623 and appears to have an uninstalled thickness of 1.2 mm.

There appears to be some drift around the thickness values. As originally intended by Volvo 0.8 mm was the uncompressed thickness; but, evidence suggests that at present 0.8mm appears to be closer to the compressed thickness. If you search around, you will also find a number of sources that are listing the thicknesses as 0.85 mm for the E gasket. You can find sources with contradictory thickness values for both the 419763 and 419310 gaskets. I don't know whether that reflects different manufacturers or reporting a compressed versus un compressed gasket. I do have it from a reliable source that the Elring 419310 was compressing to 0.033- 0.34" which may jive with an uncompressed thickness of 0.85mm. I don't know whether the gaskets that are listed as 0.8mm are still 0.8mm or the vendors have just not got around to updating the product info.

The 419763 E gasket is / isn't available depending on where you look. The Elring website lists it as NLA; but, there may be other manufacturers and there may be new old stock kicking around. The 419310 head gasket has the same thickness as the 419763 head gasket; but, it is slightly different. If you look at the pictures in the links below, eagle eyes will spot that the metal fire ring on the 419763 gasket has a very slight egg shape to it (it looks bulged between the cylinders). The B gasket fire ring is pretty much round. The bulge is supposedly there to accommodate the 44 mm intake valve in the E head (B head has 42 mm valve). You can see this same bulge in the 462623 F gasket.

419310 'B' gasket
https://classic-volvo.com/gasket-cil...5a-130a-c.html

419763 'E' gasket
https://classic-volvo.com/gasket-cil...for-volvo.html

462623 'F' gasket
https://classic-volvo.com/gasket-cil...for-volvo.html

The information I had from about 10 years ago was that all complete gasket kits listed for the B20E engine were in fact B20F head gaskets. After finding this out, I went back and confirmed that the gasket kit that I purchased for the rebuild of my B20E included a B20F head gasket based upon its nominal thickness. I haven't been looking recently; but, I haven't seen any contradictory information. That was the basis for my comment about the non availability of 0.028" gasket kits for E engines. However, it is possible that somebody might be packaging up the parts to make a kit with the correct B20E head gasket.

In those Scandcar links to the head gaskets, you will not that in the application list for 419310 they list both the B20B and the B20E. For 419763 which is the Volvo part number for the E gasket they do also list the B, B and E engines. Go figure that one out! If you can find an actual 419763 and confirm the uncompressed thickness I would be inclined to go for that. However, people (me included) have been using the 419310 head gasket with a round fire ring without issue in stock B20E engines.

Since you have SU carbs fitted, if you are OK with using the 419310 gasket you might be able to use a B head gasket kit. That was not an option for me since I retain fuel injection and the B manifold gaskets do not work with an E manifold.

A further note. If you source the gaskets individually beware of a gasket listed as a 419310-EL. This is an Elring gasket; but it is not the normal 419310. I am unsure of its intended application.

As a final note, in the form of Amazon Cars you do have a local (more local to you than me!) vintage Volvo expert. You might want to give them a call to see what they offer up for a more / most correct head gasket for a B20E.

[Derek UK]

IMO, chasing a few fractions of CR with thin gaskets might be self defeating with modern fuels. Unless you want to chase around getting 100 octane and/or use octane booster additives, best to keep it reasonable so you can use standard premium. For normal road use I'd think 10:1 or a little under is fine.

[Burdekin]

Originally Posted by Derek UK

IMO, chasing a few fractions of CR with thin gaskets might be self defeating with modern fuels. Unless you want to chase around getting 100 octane and/or use octane booster additives, best to keep it reasonable so you can use standard premium. For normal road use I'd think 10:1 or a little under is fine.

I'm putting a E head on my 142 B20 and will probably keep the TT3 cam. I can go to 9.5 max, 9:1 is probably more ideal and safer. The lower duration cams have a higher dynamic compression ratio so what cam is fitted makes a difference. But the D or K should be nice and safe at 10:1.

[142 Guy]

Originally Posted by Derek UK

IMO, chasing a few fractions of CR with thin gaskets might be self defeating with modern fuels. Unless you want to chase around getting 100 octane and/or use octane booster additives, best to keep it reasonable so you can use standard premium. For normal road use I'd think 10:1 or a little under is fine.

Perhaps my point was missed.

I was not advocating for chasing a higher compression ratio by using a thinner gasket. I was advocating for using a thin gasket to ensure that you maintain a reasonable quench clearance to avoid detonation. If going to a shorter duration camshaft which tends to give you a higher dynamic compression ratio it is reasonable to reduce the static compression ratio. The correct way to do that is to maintain the quench depth with a thin gasket and increase the volume of the combustion chamber. Of course, the correct way involves more measurement and work than just stuffing in a fat gasket to increase the clearance volume.

In the case of the original question, if Powen1 sticks with a K or D cam no change in static compression ratio is required. My point was re assemble the engine with the original 0.028" (or whatever the equivalent thin gasket is these days) thin head gasket because there is absolutely no up side to using the thick gasket which is what is currently being sold as the head gasket for fuel injected engines. Whether he wants to try and chase down a thin gasket with the reliefs for the 44mm intake valve might be of questionable value.

Getting a correct thin gasket may reduce the need to chase around getting 100 octane.

[packers1712]

Sorry Paul for high jacking your thread, but my Amazon is fitted with a very similar set up to yours and I’ve just come back from a rolling road session where we discovered my set up is far to rich, my SU’s have LKN needles currently but what needle’s should I be running, these were fitted when I purchased the car?
The PO told me the cam isn’t standard and I believe it’s either a D or a K, based on some paperwork supplied with it but have been unable to establish exactly which one, will there be a common needle suitable for either of those cams?

Doug.

[powen1]

Originally Posted by packers1712

Sorry Paul for high jacking your thread, but my Amazon is fitted with a very similar set up to yours and I’ve just come back from a rolling road session where we discovered my set up is far to rich, my SU’s have LKN needles currently but what needle’s should I be running, these were fitted when I purchased the car?
The PO told me the cam isn’t standard and I believe it’s either a D or a K, based on some paperwork supplied with it but have been unable to establish exactly which one, will there be a common needle suitable for either of those cams?

Doug.

Doug, No problem its all knowledge :-)

OK So after my question about my Cam I have found out that the old one was in fact a K cam so replacing with the same. I had some work done at Amazon Cars in Norfolk and I spoke with Rob about my setup, he has done a lot of testing on setups for his rallying hobby, B20E twin SU's HS6 and he said I was running the wrong needles (By previous Owner) so he recommended Burlen-AUD1538- Needle KN which I bought from him.

Paul

[packers1712]

Hi Paul, yes that tally’s up with one of the three needles the Neil Bray@ the rolling road is going to get and try so hopefully we can get something that is a more acceptable consumption, he was worried that I may be bore washing at cruising speeds.
Also I’ve quoted the wrong needle in my first post they are LFN not LKN!🤪

Doug.

[142 Guy]

Originally Posted by packers1712

The PO told me the cam isn’t standard and I believe it’s either a D or a K, based on some paperwork supplied with it but have been unable to establish exactly which one, will there be a common needle suitable for either of those cams?

Doug.

If you have a dial gauge and a degree wheel for the crankshaft, you should be able to determine what cam you have with the cam in situ. The D and K both have 0.42" valve lift (the easy way to discern between D or K and not D or K. The duration on the D and K is slightly different and with careful measurement as described in the service manual you should be able to determine which it is. However, if you know it is either a D or a K then I would not bother since the same needles probably apply for both cams.