Engine 850: B5254S/2.4/20v: Please help me - Timing problems..

[dinky1]

Ok mate, I'll try to get those for you tomorrow (weather depending of course - its been forcast to rain though).

Also I've been looking through the renault docs and it says about the cam sensor on the exhaust cam. Apparently if its a duff one the engine won't start at all (sound familiar? LOL). Well I'm wondering if this might of mysteriously given up the ghost but that wouldn't make the engine sound lumpy would it?

[strbryan]

Originally Posted by dinky1

Ok mate, I'll try to get those for you tomorrow (weather depending of course - its been forcast to rain though).

Also I've been looking through the renault docs and it says about the cam sensor on the exhaust cam. Apparently if its a duff one the engine won't start at all (sound familiar? LOL). Well I'm wondering if this might of mysteriously given up the ghost but that wouldn't make the engine sound lumpy would it?

The cam censer controls the timing for the spark so in theory if it is breaking down then yes it could explain why the engine is running "lumpy".

There is a number of things that could be wrong with the engine, but like I mentioned before.We need to start from the beginning and make sure the timing is correct first.

[glock19]

Originally Posted by dinky1

Ok mate, I'll try to get those for you tomorrow (weather depending of course - its been forcast to rain though).

Also I've been looking through the renault docs and it says about the cam sensor on the exhaust cam. Apparently if its a duff one the engine won't start at all (sound familiar? LOL). Well I'm wondering if this might of mysteriously given up the ghost but that wouldn't make the engine sound lumpy would it?

Can you get the codes read ? A faulty sensor which causes no-start should trigger a DTC. Also this sensor would not allow the coil to fire but in your case, everythings stops at the dizzy cap - or so it seems.

To really confirm this, take an old spark plug, insert it into the outlet of the singular HT lead from the coil, with the body grounded of course - direct, not from the dizzy. Crank it and see if it emits sparks. As usual all safety steps apply : pull out the fuse for the petrol pump / release fuel pressure from the fuel rail and let dry / HT voltage from the coil could injure / etc.

NA cars which are without the exhuast (with downpipe only) would be lumpy due to poor scavenging effect.

Last, the sreeching sound frm the engine during cranking is something not to be taken lightly. A thought just came in - do you have enough lubricating oil and is the oil grade too thin ? This engine is using hydraulic lifters. If the oil pump and oil pressure is not enough, the tappets might not seat or open properly BUT then you said the plugs are wet and compression ratio is good - so these still points back to the electrical system ??

[dinky1]

Hi guys

Well I been out there with it again today.. I put the cam sensor on from the working safrane but still no ignition unfortunately. I do get one spark on cylinder 3 when it first cranks and then thats it - it just stops. Still current to the dizzy from the coil too so clearly its not making the jump to one of the contacts.

I'm at a loss now so I've booked it into the local dealer for them to cost me some more cash. It seems that no matter how hard I try with this car, no matter what tools I buy (currently over £1k worth) no matter how much time, energy, passion etc i put into this ruddy car its still not going to start unless it gets to cost me some time at the dealer so I've pretty much given up now.

[dinky1]

Hi again guys

This one is really for strbryan, pics as requested. I'm afraid they're not brilliant as the engine is back in the bay but I've tried. I couldn't access the TDC hole or the crank for this so I had to find TDC with a screwdriver on piston 1.

The other thing.. the inlef cam has no serial/part number visible due to the rust. The rear one I couldn't make out one or two digits so I thought I'd just post the photo as you'll probably know what you're looking at.

Here we go:






Finally one to show the engine bay (although this literally isn't the full picture). It's a bit cramped in there so hard to get access to quite a few bits for an amateur like myself unless I break things.


Not that much of this really matters now.. the local dealer is gonna sting me £££ on Thursday. I've lost all hope on this pile of metal.

[strbryan]

Ok mate now that you have posted the pictures of the cams I will agree that there in the right place/position.

Now to the cam wheels..When you have the timing tool located are the marking on the cam wheels also in the right positions?

[dinky1]

Hi Str

I'm afraid not. As I said in a previous post Renault in ther stupidity have switched the cam wheels and reversed them so that the timing marks cant actually be used. See these pictures:

This one is from JodT5 in his timing belt thread showing the 10 and 2 o'clock positions.


This one is the safrane cam wheels - Notice that when I put the inlet at 2 o'clock like Jod's, the exhaust is also at the 2 o'clock position and the bolts are the opposite way around to Jods. Oddly however when lined up with my timing tool the bolts are the correct way round (like Jods) but obviously the timing marks mean nothing as they just point to some random direction.


The top cover on these is different to the 850's - Although its still stamped up with Volvo, it has 2 timing belt spy holes in it and is a totally different design to the 850 with no timing positions. I *think* that may be why Renault switched the cams - IE to stop people guessing against the volvo positions but its only a theory. Of course I could be totally wrong.. maybe they switched them and the cover just to stop DIY'ers (I think we both know which one is the most likely LOL).

The engine really doesn't sound happy when cranking...

[K6dude]

Hi Dinky,
Mike here from Lincoln.

As another owner of both the Safrane and the Volvo, I have to ask...is the auto box connected when you try to fire her up? Could it be that the resistance you percieve and the awful noise is in fact something to do with the box being in Drive or perhaps being a little damaged somewhere?
I take it that the Auto box in the Aisin-Warner version?

If something is making that sort of noise, it is not electrical...it is metal against metal and a bad thing...oil pump, water pump, crankshaft bent a little, head not quite straight, mechanical rotor spindle bent/fitted a little awry etc.
Is it not possible to stick a proper Volvo unit in there and make it all sensible?
Could be cheaper and more rewarding in the long run if you can.

The Safrane engine is good, but the Volvo is better IMHO.

I am at work at the moment, and the sphincter IT system here won't let me see any pics in the threads...so I will look at them on Friday when I get home.

If you want another expert opinion, I can give you the number of a brilliant Mechanic.

Mike

[dinky1]

Hi K6, .Info here It's great to see you're here too!

Gearbox is connected yes. It's in park so thats not a problem. The screeching is actually the engine itself - sounds like the pistons as they're going up and down. I'm also getting blob blob blob type sounds as its cranking although admittedly the exhaust isn't back on yet.

Yes the box is AW. There is oil in the engine and new ATF in the auto box.

There isn't much difference between the saff and volvo engines from what I've been able to determine - sure some differences with the electronics and things but the basic engine and gearboxes are the same. They're both mounted completely differently however as you'll see from my photos above (when you're able to) the safrane version has a metal block over the timing belt area where one mount bolts onto. That makes it difficult to even think about fitting a Volvo lump in there for that very reason. The amount of sheer metal work involved would make the job far too difficult. Also I don't have the workspace other than my drive and my neighbours who's drive I'm borrowing on a temporary basis. Pulling out the engine again, removing the gearbox, sourcing a volvo unit, drilling bolt holes all over the place, swapping heads etc isn't really an option for me. I was pushing the boundaries just pulling the engine out to be honest. If I had a nice double garage obviously it would be a totally different story.

What I can't get over is how the engine actually sounded BETTER when it was out of time (due to my white tipex marks being a bit screwy). Now I've done it with the proper tool it's really sounding ill.

[strbryan]

Seeing as these engines are Volvo I cant see why Renault would fit different cam wheels.

Please correct me if I'm wrong..but I seem to remember that this engine had some work/replaced not so long ago?

Do you have access to another engine as a spare?

Looking a the resent pictures you have posted I'm still thinking that the cam wheels have been fitted incorrectly. i.e The inlet cam wheel has been fitted to the exhaust cam.