The National Rally & BKV - does it really exist ?

[volvorocks]

Originally Posted by Derek UK

"We have had Volvos for years, although until this forum had never heard of the BKV or any rally, so reckon awareness creation and greater promotion would be helpful, as there are probably loads of people with Volvos,not on this forum, that would attend such an event."

Comment made slightly tongue in cheek but I suspect that you've always had new Volvos and changed them fairly frequently for another new one. Maybe that's why you never been aware that a club existed for "new" Volvo cars. The VOC caters for all Volvos from 1927 to now and beyond. I hope you will be joining the club soon? Your membership fee helps to fund all of the events and other club expenses. The fee isn't large. Being a member does give a little weight to opinions and suggestions made here on the forum as it will be "your" club that you are praising, or criticising..........................

Mixture of both really.My father started the ball rolling with a new one (145) followed by a raft of secondhand ones.We have had secondhand ones and also new ones over the last few years, with some kept for longer than others.

Never really been a 'club member' type of person really, so that may be why it never crossed my mind.

Regards

[Dan J]

I might be completely missing the point as a relative newbie to all this BKV stuff but as far as I can tell it seems to reward those with the money and space (or situation) where they have a car they rarely use and can keep garaged and polished over those who actually look after regularly used vehicles very well.

It is very easy to keep a car you've had from new/nearly new/pristine second hand condition when it sits in a garage most of the year, never goes out in the wet or salted roads and you've got the time to polish the thing. I'm much more impressed when I see a 200k car that is used every day on the school and work run that someone has taken considerable time, effort and money to retain in excellent condition than one with 30k and mint condition. I mean seriously - worn door hinges? They're worn because the car has been used for its intended purpose! Everything wears out when you USE it...

The BKV also looks like a set up where the same group of cars are going to keep winning over and over again which I understand from conversations often applies to a 164 and the red 240 that won at this years BKV. It's also a set up that because of exactly the above would potentially (in my opinion) discourage new entrants. Someone buys an old car, spend time and efforting restoring it to something that looks great and now has another 20 years plus in it but why should they bother entering it when they know it isn't quite as good as the one that wins year in year out?

To that end I *really* like Sharkey R's idea of the Member Class. Members would be bored of the same cars winning over and over again and would probably by default look to some of the other cars and cars that would normally not be included (that 740 low rider was in beautiful condition and an amazing car - for example) would end up being Members' favourite.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong with my perceptions above - but I'm definitely up for seeing Member judging.

Dan

[mrmeringo]

I agree 100%

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by Dan J

I might be completely missing the point as a relative newbie to all this BKV stuff but as far as I can tell it seems to reward those with the money and space (or situation) where they have a car they rarely use and can keep garaged and polished over those who actually look after regularly used vehicles very well.

It is very easy to keep a car you've had from new/nearly new/pristine second hand condition when it sits in a garage most of the year, never goes out in the wet or salted roads and you've got the time to polish the thing. I'm much more impressed when I see a 200k car that is used every day on the school and work run that someone has taken considerable time, effort and money to retain in excellent condition than one with 30k and mint condition. I mean seriously - worn door hinges? They're worn because the car has been used for its intended purpose! Everything wears out when you USE it...

The BKV also looks like a set up where the same group of cars are going to keep winning over and over again which I understand from conversations often applies to a 164 and the red 240 that won at this years BKV. It's also a set up that because of exactly the above would potentially (in my opinion) discourage new entrants. Someone buys an old car, spend time and efforting restoring it to something that looks great and now has another 20 years plus in it but why should they bother entering it when they know it isn't quite as good as the one that wins year in year out?

To that end I *really* like Sharkey R's idea of the Member Class. Members would be bored of the same cars winning over and over again and would probably by default look to some of the other cars and cars that would normally not be included (that 740 low rider was in beautiful condition and an amazing car - for example) would end up being Members' favourite.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong with my perceptions above - but I'm definitely up for seeing Member judging.

Dan

In my opinion.

Originality should always be encouraged, and in order to be more inclusive there should be a number of classes, a class for cars used either daily or on a regular basis, and a class for those low mileage cars that perhaps only do a few miles yearly.
Examples being the lovely P1800s at the National, my guess is none of them are used regularly throughout the year, some I've seen travel only a few miles each year to and from the MoT station.

And a modified class that should mean exactly that, not for example an accessorised car.

There should perhaps be a"custom"class to to reflect the diversity of people's interests.

I am personally not in favour of member's judging, but my suggestion is that there should be a separate award, perhaps simply"Member's Favourite".

Judges can only judge what is entered, and if the same cars win over and over, that is outside the judges control, in that they have no control over who enters: that is surely a separate issue?

With regard the car with worn door hinges, lets say that was entered in a Daily Driver category, I would mark that car down for worn hinges, cracked headlight, dropped headlining etc.

My own 745 for example, whilst being cherished would never win against a very low mileage hardly used car, as mine is used all year round doing the duties that was intended for it when new.

So the new categories could look like this -

Daily Driver
Restored
Original
Modified
Custom
Member's Favourite.

Just thinking out loud here guys and gals.

Prufrock.

[Dan J]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Originality should always be encouraged
Prufrock.

Just out of interest Prufrock, by "originality" do you mean Volvo parts and completely original spec?

[Prufrock]

I'll have to make certain assumptions from your question Dan, but originality means just that; for example Doug's 740GLT was about as original a 744 as you'll find anywhere outside a museum, this is the kind of originality worth preserving.

Heavy use would not (always) preserve that originality.

In contrast, my 745 has a Weber carb, therefore the car is not original - yet no-one would sensibly suggest it should go in the modified class.

Prufrock.

[Dan J]

All makes sense Prufrock - cheers. Whilst the originality point is great I think it can only be practical or even possible to a point hence your point about "working" modifications like carbs should not force a car into the modified section. I had a good chat with one of the parts guys at the ever-helpful FRF in Swansea and it doesn't paint a happy picture for the future availability of OEM parts for the older cars. It's a shame this is now Volvo's philosophy - they want you to buy new cars, not repair the old ones. I had a BMW E38 728i and it infuriated me that a car that was still in production in 2001 was becoming impossible to get OEM parts for less than 10 years later. After many campaigns and the realisation there is money to be made, BMW are reversing their previous trend having set up www.bmw-classic.com and making many old parts available again. Volvo seems to be heading in the opposite direction which is rather a worry and a shame...

[acshortt5]

That's kind of where I'm a bit stuck. Mine gets used everyday for work, going to the shops etc, even though it's still low on mileage by normal volvo standards lol. Consequently it isn't the prettiest car about, it has its war wounds, dings/scratches etc.

However when I've come to replace something I've always looked for the best, sometimes it's genuine volvo parts sometimes it isn't.

I can't claim my car is the peak of originality because it isn't, tbh some things like the original headlights are a pile of crap. So actually I could potentially have the "best handling/quickest/best audio/most practical for driving" car in the class but because it's not got an immaculate coat of paint/all it's original bits it's not the "best kept".

I think one problem is the question - how do you judge a car? Clearly judging cars on their "shinyness" is the easiest as it can be done in the shortest time.

However we have all heard the common 2nd hand car dealer phrase "polishing a turd". So how do you judge beyond the shinyness? In a perfect world you would put the car on a lift have a good look underneath, examine parts - see what's been replaced etc and then take the car for a test drive to see if it performs "as new".

This isn't practical for several reasons:

1) There are too few judges with too little time to judge each car.

2) The judges would have to have a good degree of experience of the car model.

3) Not practical to have a car lift in a field and test drives would raise questions of H & S and insurance.

Just to throw another possible idea into the mix:

I like the idea of members judging cars, however asking members to judge every car is not very practical. This was actually tried at the Northern BKV a while ago and what I personally found was that there wasn't enough time to get round and judge each and every car properly.

How about this: every entrant is required to judge a car. (clearly it must be in a different category to the members car to avoid bias).

This should mean that the "judges" get to spend more time looking at the car/chatting with the owner.

It should be easy to do: On entering the show the car reg/model number are taken at the gate and written onto a judging sheet.

After the last entry is in place someone goes round and gives out a judging sheet to each entrant. Perhaps stagger it somehow (by classes, 50% in the 1st hour then the other 50% in the 2nd hour?) so that all cars aren't judged at once. Otherwise you would get "judges" turning up to locked cars.

Have a cutoff time for judging sheets to be handed in. Anyone who is late handing in the sheet/doesn't hand their sheet in has their car disqualified and the missing car is judged again by a VOC official if necessary.

In addition perhaps there should be a public vote (open to both entrants and general public) to decide the "best" and "runner up" in show.

The above would take the pressure off the present judging system, entrants would potentially consider the judging to be fairer as the judge would have more time to spend looking at the car/chatting with the owner.

Just an idea anyway.

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by Dan J

All makes sense Prufrock - cheers. Whilst the originality point is great I think it can only be practical or even possible to a point hence your point about "working" modifications like carbs should not force a car into the modified section. I had a good chat with one of the parts guys at the ever-helpful FRF in Swansea and it doesn't paint a happy picture for the future availability of OEM parts for the older cars. It's a shame this is now Volvo's philosophy - they want you to buy new cars, not repair the old ones. I had a BMW E38 728i and it infuriated me that a car that was still in production in 2001 was becoming impossible to get OEM parts for less than 10 years later. After many campaigns and the realisation there is money to be made, BMW are reversing their previous trend having set up www.bmw-classic.com and making many old parts available again. Volvo seems to be heading in the opposite direction which is rather a worry and a shame...

BMW has had Mobile Tradition for many years, I never have had problems sourcing parts for my 1977 320, not any other BMWs I had over the years...several E32s, two E38s...

Volvo has a"heritage"presence, whether this will endure or develop under Geely's ownership is anyone's guess at this time.

This is a complex but subtle issue and with regard to catagories and"competition"we have to define our terms such as"originality","best kept","modified"etc...

With regard to parts I think we 700 owners could actually help ourselves within the context of the VOC - I have some ideas that are a little outside the scope of this forum, we need a decent sample of 700 owners to make them work.

Prufrock.

[93240se]

As always a wide variety of views of how judging shoul take place at the National Rally. The important thing for me personally is that it is the National Rally of the VOC, with the BKV being just one part of it. A good time to meet up with many friends from across the country and enjoy the Saturday event.
Regarding the classes, I am afraid there is no easy answer, too few people prepared to judge and possibly too little time if all the suggestions were implemented.

What I dislike is to receive an award when only one type is entered in a particular class, which has happened to me in the PV class twice in the last 3 years. Despite my protests I am asked to enter, don't mind showing the car but I won't go to a lot of trouble to prepare it. And yes, it is used each week all year round. I have in the past seen wheels changed outside the rally area, front grilles changed on site etc. Makes me wonder if it is the VOC National Rally or the Good Housekeeping Institute Awards sometimes!
Having said that, as per previous posts thoroughly enjoy the event but won't make next year's as away. So lets see a few more PVs please!

Regards, Richard.