auto box transmission flush

[IainG]

Hi
What about just doing the 3ltr, but then get it done every service as well. Will slowly refresh the oil and the cost can be incorporated in with the service and therefore should be cheaper each time.

Iain

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by paignton

So I've checked in with a couple of garages locally. Both volvo specialists. The first actually recommended a get a full flush from a gearbox specilaist and then had the adaption reset for £48. As "this is much better than a drain" This seems to be bad advise to me with all I've read espically with a gearbox with 110,000 miles on it.
The second has recommended : "yes you can only drain out about 3 litres so it need to be flushed through 2in 2out until it runs clear, this is very wasteful and uses approx 12 litres for it to be a perfect flush, cost would be approx £200-£220ish if 12 litres are required". This does sound more promising to me, I believe I've seen this technique in in youtube videos before.
I suppose I need to check the fliud he is quoting for but sounds a reasonable pric, he doesn't mention vida so again something I'll have to go back to him with.

But do any of you have advise on whether this technique would be safe? Or should I stick with just the 3 litre dump and refill, once not the full 12 litres.

The 12 litres of transmission fluid would indicate the garage is using the "Gibbons method" (This method changes ALL the fluid). They remove the transmission oil cooler hose and put that pipe inside a waste container and have another pipe to a container of new fluid that feeds the oil cooler. When the car is started, the old fluid is pumped to waste container and the new oil is drawn into the system from the other container that has the fresh fluid in it. The reason 12 litres of fluid is used is because this method removes the transmission fluid that's inside the torque converter too, but the drain & fill method I mentioned previously doesn't drain all of the transmission, only part of the fluid in the transmission is changed so to speak. This is why you'll only get a maximum of approx 3 litres out of the transmission at a time doing the job via the drain & fill method.

The second has recommended : "yes you can only drain out about 3 litres so it need to be flushed through 2in 2out until it runs clear, this is very wasteful and uses approx 12 litres for it to be a perfect flush, cost would be approx £200-£220ish if 12 litres are required". This does sound more promising to me, I believe I've seen this technique in in youtube videos before.

If they're using 12 litres of transmission fluid, they're using the Gibbons method to change the fluid (explained above). This amount of fluid is usually required to get the best results because the whole transmission is drained using this method. Note, they may even need more than this to get the fluid totally clean - That depends on how dirty the existing fluid is.

However, if using the drain & fill method (Not flushing & you don't need 12 litres of fluid), you'll only be able to drain about 3 litres out because the rest of the fluid (Approx 9L) is lodged inside the torque converter etc - You can't drain the remaining 9L using the drain & fill, only the Gibbons method will get the other 9 litres out. This is why the drain & fill method is the cheapest way to change your fluid (You only need 3L, as opposed to 12L), but to get the fluid totally clean, you'd do a few drain & fills over the course of time.

The garages you're bringing the car to don't seem to understand the difference between a drain & fill of the gearbox and transmission flush, which I find bizarre. I'll post some videos that you can watch that'll give you an indication of what's involved. Its more or less the same process on most models, so don't be alarmed if you're watching a video of someone working on a car that isn't your exact model.

Drain & fill method - A very detailed video below, but you don't have to use this much fluid (This chap uses 12L of fluid via the drain & fill method & does the job all in one go). Many Volvo owners just replace 3L of fluid, doing exactly what the guy in this video is showing using only 3L of fluid & then repeat the process over a period of time. So effectively, doing it this way means you use less fluid in one go & you're renewing it gradually (That'll be less of a shock to the gearbox too). Infact, there's a thread on here that suggests doing a drain & fill every 20k miles until the fluid is like a cherry red colour (The colour the fluid should be when its totally clean). How regular you drain & fill the transmission is up to you, but its the easiest way & isn't as expensive as the Gibbons method. If you had VIDA or knew someone locally with it, you could buy a 20L drum of transmission fluid from a decent brand like Mannol for about £50 - That's enough to do six drain & fills with fluid left to spare! The garage wants £200-£220 to do effectively the same job in one go that you could do over a period of time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAb9p8Wph-M

Gibbons method - This is the method that uses a lot of fluid because you're draining the whole transmission. (See below):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5h4UhUSHS4

There's nothing wrong in using either method, but a drain & fill is cheaper & can be done over a period of time. Some also say that its less of a shock to the gearbox doing the job this way, as you're only partially replacing a percentage of the fluid at once instead of draining the whole transmission.

Personally, a drain & fill will do taking the mileage of the vehicle into consideration. Change 3L of fluid, then replace another 3L another time etc until the fluid is totally clean. This way, there's less chance of dislodging gunk/grime that could cause issues because its not flushing. If you want to spend £200 to £220 though, then go for the full transmission change.

I paid £145 for mine to be changed via drain & fill & was only charged for 3L of fluid plus labour (This included diagnosing an alarm issue though, so it'd be even less than that - They don't do the Gibbons method).

My advice to summarise, get the garage to change 3L of fluid via drain & fill & get them to reset the adaptions (Just tell them that's what you want doing & ensure that they only charge you for 3L of fluid). Then do the same again over the course of time, so change 3L on the next service & so forth (Like IainG suggested). Its your car though & your choice, of course. The garage I brought mine to (Volvo Specialist) advised me to change 3L of transmission fluid every 45/50k if you don't do any towing, every 25/30k if you do. Obviously there's no set recommended interval as such for replacement because Volvo don't actually advise changing the fluid at all because the transmission is "sealed for life" (Which is a load of rubbish in my opinion). I feel 3L drain & fill every 50k is a bit too long of an interval though, even when I don't do any towing. I'll replace another 3L sooner than that - That's just personal preference though.

[Bonefishblues]

A couple of comments on the above.

The capacity of the AW55 is c7-8 litres (IIRC, don't have the exact number to hand, the handbook will have it exactly), not 12 - 12 is 'needed' if you want substantially clean ATF back out after draining & filling.

3 litres dropped and refilled freshens up the oil but the oil remains substantially dirty. I'm not sure therefore that a gearbox reset is needed at this stage? I'd probably be doing rather more than that before seeking to do this, in any event. Doesn't the gearbox itself recognise its state, as it were, and adapt after a little while - or am I conflating that with driving style and change points?

Again IIRC where this box is not 'sealed for life' (I came from Saabs where the box gives no trouble at all) the interval is 60-70K miles, something of that order, but many owners home drop and fill 3L periodically.

Same broad principles for the later '80 6-speed.

[Simmy]

i cant understand why they say sealed for life when it has a drain plug

[iainmd]

Originally Posted by Simmy

i cant understand why they say sealed for life when it has a drain plug

So that eventually it fails and you're persuaded to go buy a new car

Call me a cynic if you like ;-)

[Bonefishblues]

Originally Posted by Simmy

i cant understand why they say sealed for life when it has a drain plug

Because 'use in arduous conditions' means fluid changes.

...and because not everyone who used it declared it sealed for life!

[andyv40turbo]

Originally Posted by Bonefishblues

A couple of comments on the above.

The capacity of the AW55 is c7-8 litres (IIRC, don't have the exact number to hand, the handbook will have it exactly), not 12 - 12 is 'needed' if you want substantially clean ATF back out after draining & filling.

3 litres dropped and refilled freshens up the oil but the oil remains substantially dirty. I'm not sure therefore that a gearbox reset is needed at this stage? I'd probably be doing rather more than that before seeking to do this, in any event. Doesn't the gearbox itself recognise its state, as it were, and adapt after a little while - or am I conflating that with driving style and change points?

Again IIRC where this box is not 'sealed for life' (I came from Saabs where the box gives no trouble at all) the interval is 60-70K miles, something of that order, but many owners home drop and fill 3L periodically.

Same broad principles for the later '80 6-speed.

Im interested too in how important is the reset via vida. As I dont have the unit I was planning on doing the dump and refill but I dont have the means to reset. Is it the QTY that would confuse the electrics or the lubricating effect of new vs old oil?

[Bonefishblues]

Originally Posted by andyv40turbo

Im interested too in how important is the reset via vida. As I dont have the unit I was planning on doing the dump and refill but I dont have the means to reset. Is it the QTY that would confuse the electrics or the lubricating effect of new vs old oil?

Always measure what comes out and replace with the same quantity going in.

Again aiui, the properties of the oil change over time with use, so were you to do a complete change (or indeed, whisper it quietly, a flush) then you'd certainly need to tell the 'box you'd done that. The question is, where is the 'tipping point' v-a-v this, as it were?

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Bonefishblues

A couple of comments on the above.

The capacity of the AW55 is c7-8 litres (IIRC, don't have the exact number to hand, the handbook will have it exactly), not 12 - 12 is 'needed' if you want substantially clean ATF back out after draining & filling.

3 litres dropped and refilled freshens up the oil but the oil remains substantially dirty. I'm not sure therefore that a gearbox reset is needed at this stage? I'd probably be doing rather more than that before seeking to do this, in any event. Doesn't the gearbox itself recognise its state, as it were, and adapt after a little while - or am I conflating that with driving style and change points?

Again IIRC where this box is not 'sealed for life' (I came from Saabs where the box gives no trouble at all) the interval is 60-70K miles, something of that order, but many owners home drop and fill 3L periodically.

Same broad principles for the later '80 6-speed.

Resetting the adaptions isn't totally necessary from my understanding, but garages usually do it as good practice & reset the fluid counter too. The transmission effectively learns how to shift with the new fluid anyway, but it could be a little jerky for a few miles at first without resetting the adaptions.

3 litres dropped and refilled freshens up the oil but the oil remains substantially dirty.

The fluid won't be totally clean no, but it'll be a bit cleaner shall we say. A drain & fill of 3L periodically over time is less of a shock to the transmission, as opposed to changing all the fluid via the Gibbon's method where you're effectively draining pretty much the whole system. Depending how dirty the existing fluid is, you could use or need up to 12 litres of fluid to get the best results as you say - This is where the job gets expensive. Personally, if I was paying £200-£300 for a full flush in a garage, I'd expect nothing less than spotless fluid! Although, for a DIY'er, there's options such as buying big 20L drums of Mannol or Smith & Allen brand transmission fluid for say £50-£80, which is fairly reasonable & would allow you to do several drain & fills without having to pay for the fluid per litre at a garage & their labour rates. That's a considerable saving for a DIY'er...

I'm not a fan of flushing, but that's due to advice that was given to me by a trusted garage. I quote, "It can cause more harm than good". Many people do flushes & have been successful though, so its down to your budget & what an individual feels is best I suppose. Not a chance would I flush mine though.

Yes, you can do the job without VIDA by adding the same amount as you drain. Again, it boils down to preference if you want to reset the fluid counter to let the TCM know its got new fluid, as well as resetting the adaptions - That's a VIDA only job though. Personally, I'd still opt for telling the car that its got new fluid by resetting the fluid counter as a minimum (VIDA required for this). I treat the transmission the same as changing the oil, I let her know she's had some TLC

[Tannaton]

The issue with the AW55 as well as Volvo not specifying fluid changes when other manufacturers who use it do - is that the D5 to which it is commonly bolted is right up to the design limit of the gearbox for torque - in fact the engine is torque limited in 1st and 2nd gear when fitted with that box. Other installations with 2 litre petrol and diesel engines have fewer problems.

The box holds 7 litres, if you replace 3 (sump dump) you have changed 42% of the oil. If you do that three times more, you will have changed 90% of the oil. A gibbons flush wont get much better than that.

If you are careful and replace exactly what you use - there is no necessity for VIDA. It is beneficial to clear the adaptation memory, it is very beneficial to do the adaptaion process, but again it's not essential, usually the TCM catches up. In some cases though you might find the box is worse after changing the fluid until is does that. The fluid cycle counter is just that - a counter - it has no effect on the gearbox operation but again if you can it is best practice to reset it.