Headlights

[dingov70]

Originally Posted by camturbo

I'm contemplating led h7 in mine need to ask questions first,as people have said it's a minefield. I've found some that are road legal and approved but need to clarify some questions first.

I am a current MOT tester & would like to clarify LED / HID headlight issues . If your car has reflector type headlights the only bulb you can use would be a filament type . However if you have projector type lights you can use any light source with them as the lens / reflector setup is designed to focus the light differently . Should a car with reflector headlights be tested when fitted with LED or HID it is an automatic fail UNLESS the headlight is clearly marked for HID use ( applies to some Lexus models ) as the light & light source are incompatible

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...#section-4-1-4

Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.

And that's direct from the manual

[Tatsfield]

Interesting to get the story from an expert on MoT. dingov70, can you just clarify your statement:

"Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp. "

By that do you mean shallow reflector units? My previous car had projection housings with halogen bulbs. I understood that it was permissible to replace the halogen bulbs with HID or LED bulbs in such units but that the other two requirements of headlight washers and a light levelling system also had to be met but that MoT inspectors did not look for anything outside of the light housing and the bulb although the car did have headlight washers which were self evident and it did have dashboard electrically operated manual headlight levelling controls. Is that true? The reason I ask is not for my Volvo but I am still a member of the UK Peugeot 406 Coupe Club and this question comes up regularly there because the OEM halogen headlights on that car are dangerously bad for a high performance car.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by dingov70

I am a current MOT tester & would like to clarify LED / HID headlight issues . If your car has reflector type headlights the only bulb you can use would be a filament type . However if you have projector type lights you can use any light source with them as the lens / reflector setup is designed to focus the light differently . Should a car with reflector headlights be tested when fitted with LED or HID it is an automatic fail UNLESS the headlight is clearly marked for HID use ( applies to some Lexus models ) as the light & light source are incompatible

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...#section-4-1-4

Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.

And that's direct from the manual

To be pedantic...


The MOT test makes no distinction between reflector or projector type headlights - the testing process is the same for both.

Any type of headlight designed for a halogen bulb that is fitted with HID is a fail. The testing notes go on to describe how to identify factory HID/LED and Halogen lamps from the markings on the front lens.

Many cars in the early 2000's had reflector headlights that used HID bulbs - including pre-facelift XC90 and P2 V70.

A few more more points...

LED lamps do use a ballast but it is usually built into the lamp itself.

The vast majority of LED conversations (to replace halogen lamps) do not work - reflector headlamp system rely on focussing the light from a point source (a filament measureing 5mm x 1mm in the case of H7's with 360 degree output) and LED's cannot replicate that.

[dingov70]

[QUOTE=Tatsfield;2688502]Interesting to get the story from an expert on MoT. dingov70, can you just clarify your statement:

"Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp. "

Having had a conversation with a very good man from DVSA & emailing DVSA directly , the bottom line is as follows :- Unless the reflector is clearly marked for HID use , fitted with headlight washers & self levelling devices = FAIL !

Real simple in our world , when the HID /LED shines onto the beam setter , there MUST be a clearly defined pattern as per the manual . fitting of HID / LED light sources into these lights creates scattered light output creating dazzle for oncoming drivers FAIL ! no if's , no but's .

Tannaton , I read information directly from DVSA & speak to our VE ( vehicle examiner ) in person ( the person who makes sure we test correctly ) . Yes we observe the projected image from both style of lights in the same manner BUT we have been very clearly aware of failing to issue a fail for incorrect light sources in headlights ( basically the same as points on your driving licence , we can be suspended from testing or even struck or jailed for extreme offences of failing to implement the testing service as required .

I implore everyone to read our test manual BEFORE submitting their vehicle for test , it would make our lives so much better & easy
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...rcial-vehicles .

I also made clear that some cars had reflector headlight & HID bulbs as standard , I also had a V70 P1 TDi with ABM projectors fitted with LED bulbs . Completely legal ! as the beam projected had a CLEARLY defined cut off with the kick up to the left of the image .

Please re-read my posting , I felt it was clear & unambiguous , I never want a flame war , rude words or worse still bad feeling between members , this is a great forum & long may it continue , I also agree with your points about light output from LED sources . Projector lights work differently , trust me , I see this daily .

I love the interest & input from everyone , lets avoid failing our MOT tests , please

[camturbo]

Thanks for the clarification on that sounds like I will stick with normal h7 bulbs. In view of that it would also help if headlights were designed more use friendly but that's beyond our control. Doesn't help when the more modern car has standard hids or leds coming towards you and you cant see much coz our lights are pants in comparison,hence we strive for brighter lights. Hey ho just got to live with it and make sure my next car has better lights.

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by camturbo

Thanks for the clarification on that sounds like I will stick with normal h7 bulbs. In view of that it would also help if headlights were designed more use friendly but that's beyond our control. Doesn't help when the more modern car has standard hids or leds coming towards you and you cant see much coz our lights are pants in comparison,hence we strive for brighter lights. Hey ho just got to live with it and make sure my next car has better lights.

I agree. The only options for us with poor halogen headlights are;

1. Get rid of the bulbs we're using now & buy some of the H7 halogen ones that offer extra brightness from brands like Osram for example (They still won't be as good as HID's though).

2. Buy new headlight units (projector's, not reflectors) that support HID bulbs (clearly marked that they do) with ballasts & self levelling devices fitted. Check that headlamp washers are operational too.

3. Buy a car that has HID's fitted as standard.

Very interesting points have been raised in this thread, so thank you all for your replies & input. Much appreciated.

[Tatsfield]

[QUOTE=dingov70;2688624]

Originally Posted by Tatsfield

Interesting to get the story from an expert on MoT. dingov70, can you just clarify your statement:

"Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp. "

Having had a conversation with a very good man from DVSA & emailing DVSA directly , the bottom line is as follows :- Unless the reflector is clearly marked for HID use , fitted with headlight washers & self levelling devices = FAIL !

Real simple in our world , when the HID /LED shines onto the beam setter , there MUST be a clearly defined pattern as per the manual . fitting of HID / LED light sources into these lights creates scattered light output creating dazzle for oncoming drivers FAIL ! no if's , no but's .

Tannaton , I read information directly from DVSA & speak to our VE ( vehicle examiner ) in person ( the person who makes sure we test correctly ) . Yes we observe the projected image from both style of lights in the same manner BUT we have been very clearly aware of failing to issue a fail for incorrect light sources in headlights ( basically the same as points on your driving licence , we can be suspended from testing or even struck or jailed for extreme offences of failing to implement the testing service as required .

I implore everyone to read our test manual BEFORE submitting their vehicle for test , it would make our lives so much better & easy
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...rcial-vehicles .

I also made clear that some cars had reflector headlight & HID bulbs as standard , I also had a V70 P1 TDi with ABM projectors fitted with LED bulbs . Completely legal ! as the beam projected had a CLEARLY defined cut off with the kick up to the left of the image .

Please re-read my posting , I felt it was clear & unambiguous , I never want a flame war , rude words or worse still bad feeling between members , this is a great forum & long may it continue , I also agree with your points about light output from LED sources . Projector lights work differently , trust me , I see this daily .

I love the interest & input from everyone , lets avoid failing our MOT tests , please

Do I sense that something I said upset you? I certainly didn't mean to do that and am most appreciative of your postings. I merely wasn't sure whether your reference to "Existing halogen headlamp units" did or didn't apply to halogen projector units being converted to projector HID use. I do try to be accurate, if not concise, in my postings and am sorry if my response was misinterpreted in any way.

With reference to "self levelling" in Kev 0607 posting. My reading of the MoT testers notes is that manual levelling is acceptable for HID retro fitting pass criteria as it doesn't actually say that the car has to have self levelling lights in the pass/fail explanations regarding HID lights and it does talk about manual systems in that area. My 2012 XC70 has factory fitted HIDs and no manual light levelling controls so I assume that while it must have self levelling lights, it is possible that earlier cars without HID lights might well have manual levelling fitted. As I said, my personal interest is not Volvo centred but appertains to old Peugeot 406 coupes!

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by dingov70

Tannaton , I read information directly from DVSA & speak to our VE ( vehicle examiner ) in person ( the person who makes sure we test correctly ) . Yes we observe the projected image from both style of lights in the same manner BUT we have been very clearly aware of failing to issue a fail for incorrect light sources in headlights ( basically the same as points on your driving licence , we can be suspended from testing or even struck or jailed for extreme offences of failing to implement the testing service as required .

When I was testing (circa 25 years ago) the "Man from the Ministry" was often a mystery shopper who would turn up unannounced with a carefully prepared car. The wouldn't just see what the test result was, they would check all the signage, viewing area etc. My one and only reprimand was for answering the phone during the test. You usually knew he was coming as the first garage in the area to get him would set off the jungle drums...

[dingov70]

Those were the days , our VE loves to just stroll in check things , watch things , question the tortured testing staff before smiling & leaving again .


TO be truthful our " Ministry men " are contactable & do encourage this . He diffused an angry threatening presenter , who had fitted HID into normal headlights and received a fail sheet . 5 minutes on the phone for them both & the presenter left , refitted halogen bulbs & gained a pass and I got an apology !

The mystery shopper seems to be presented to places known for poor quality work or dubious practices . My last observed test was during site inspection with VE double checking my test results with me out of sight .

[mgd109]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

To be pedantic...


LED lamps do use a ballast but it is usually built into the lamp itself.

.....

To be even more pedantic....

LED lamps do not use ballasts the correct term is driver.