XC60 AWD & 2WD Tyres & Winter

[stu0710]

My 2WD XC60 was rubbish in last years snow, even with new Pirelli P Zero Rossos which ewere only 6 weeks old (approx 3000 miles on them). My previous car - a SAAB 9-5 was much better (on Hankook summer tyres).

I have gone for a compromise - all season tyres (Toyo Open Country HT) so that I do not have the hassle of changing back again in the Summer. I am also unsure about the insurance issues of using a dedicated winter tyre all year, plus they are apparently a much softer compound and so will surely wear quicker in the summer.

My Toyos are going on next week so I'll let you know how I get on!

[wimorrison]

Originally Posted by volvorocks

...

Its interesting with XC60 AWD that Darbs as such had no problem with moving about in heavy snow whilst Wimorrison was entirely stuck and could go nowhere, with both on summer tyres at the time of experience. As Darbs said he was on new Pirelli P Rosso Zeros , not sure what condition or make your summer tyres were Wimorrison (maybe I missed it?)

I am not sure where I said I was completely stuck, but that is immaterial. What I found was that I was unable to drive with confidence and under control - I know that I skidded a few times, and generally felt that I was endangering myself and other road users. What Darbs and I realised is that I was driving on slightly worn tyres when I had the issues, he was on new tyres.

The other difference that needs to be considered is that Darbs lives in London whereas I live in rural Hampshire and have the immediate joy of a 20% hill climb for 0.5 miles to get out of my house if I turn left and 12% for a similar 0.5 miles should I turn right and choose the easy option I also have a 30% hill to negotiate at Farnham

I stand by the statement that you quote, for the cost of some winter tyres I can get in and out of my house with relative ease, but most importantly I know that my family will not be placed I danger by me whilst driving.

[darbs]

Originally Posted by volvorocks

An interesting point is that there is a lot of debate on “winter tyres taking longer to stop and grip in summer” and insurance company frowning - yet those very same drivers are content to drive on summers through winter where the stopping distance of those summer tyres is much much much greater than the stopping distance with winter tyres in summer.

i look at it from another perspective.

when driving in snow or ice on summer tyres i do what i was taught years ago, when driving my mums 1986 1.4s ford fiesta fwd. drive slowy and allow about 10 times the gap i'd normally have from the car in front.

if driving on winter tyres, i'm sure i'd be convinced its ok to take more risk. i know how a car corners and stops on the ice and snow on summer tyres. i have no experience on winter tyres.

on summer tyres in the summer, i sometimes enjoy pushing a car to it's limits. limits that are beyond a car in the summer with winter tyres. not sure i'd want to work out what those limits were.

[volvorocks]

Originally Posted by wimorrison

I am not sure where I said I was completely stuck, but that is immaterial. What I found was that I was unable to drive with confidence and under control - I know that I skidded a few times, and generally felt that I was endangering myself and other road users. What Darbs and I realised is that I was driving on slightly worn tyres when I had the issues, he was on new tyres.

No I appreciate you didnt say you got totally stuck! Just my vision of you stuck in the middle of nowhere sliding around!!

See what you mean though

[volvorocks]

Originally Posted by darbs

when driving my mums 1986 1.4s ford fiesta fwd. drive slowy and allow about 10 times the gap i'd normally have from the car in front.

Good man. Please make sure you drive behind me all the time in winter please,please?

Originally Posted by darbs

on summer tyres in the summer, i sometimes enjoy pushing a car to it's limits. limits that are beyond a car in the summer with winter tyres. not sure i'd want to work out what those limits were.

I tried the other day to try to see whether the AWD would kick in and if it worked with my driving to what I considered the limits on a few roundabouts. No wheel slip whatsoever. I wouldnt have liked to have tried any harder!! When I hear "driven to the limits" Road Wars,Police Camera Action and Police Interceptors spring to mind..

..............although I am sure you are a gentleman Mr Darbs!!

[darbs]

Originally Posted by volvorocks

[/B]


..............although I am sure you are a gentleman Mr Darbs!!

i'm getting there.

[polsesnabb]

Living in Norway, I have the pleasure (really) of driving a lot on ice and snow, but most of the time on bare roads. However, during winter you can literally expect snow and ice around the next corner or in the next hour. Spiked winter tyres are allowed from November 1st, till first Monday after Easter (!). In general, winter tyres (with or without spikes) are recommended for the same period of time. We are also approaching mandatory use of winter tyres, possibly from next year. If you crash with summers during winter, insurance companies will deduct payment severely, or neglect to pay at all.

Even up here, some people use summer tyres all year. They are few, but all you need to create incredible traffic jam for the rest of us, when the snow or ice comes from out of nowhere.

Having been caught on summers by unexpected frost and snow a couple of times myself, I can assure all who go on about "adjusting the speed, making margins bigger" etc in order to use summers in winter, and perhaps never tried winter tyres themselves, that you REALLY have no idea how big the difference is! For instance conditions that would otherwise force you to abandon the car by the road on summers, compares to driving on a "loose" dirt road with winters.

Unfortunately, 4wd car drivers are less motivated to put winter tyres on their cars. This due to the fact that they more seldom get stuck, thus see less reasons to buy proper tyres. What they seem to forget, is that the same physical laws apply to them when braking or cornering, as to 2wd cars. This is an even bigger problem when considering that SUVs are heavier than most ordinary cars, and have a lower weight / surface contact ratio. For this reason, and the fact that SUVs gives the driver less feedback from the actual road conditions, SUVs are over represented in winter accidents by 50% compared to normal cars as per the Swedish Government Statistics Central "Folksam".

The idea about making margins bigger is also stupid, as contrary to what one might believe: Things happen in traffic that you are not necessarily in control of, or able to foresee / plan for. And even more so when conditions are extreme.. Under such circumstances, one wishes to have the best control possible. In the end, we are talking about the security of pedestrians and other traffickers.

Get your winters fitted. If you need their performance just once this winter, it could mean the difference between no- or large expenses, or even life and death.

[Rich17]

Polsesnabb - Very interesting reading. I'm one of the folks over here who have not tried winter tyres so I don't know what difference they make. I was taught to drive in the snow 30 years (heck I'm getting old). For about 20 years (until 2 years ago), snow was a forgotten thing that only ever happened in your neck of the woods. I tend to drive (a lot) slower, leave longer gaps and brake only when I have to.

So in your experience with winter tyres, do you still have to adjust your style to the conditions, or do winter tyres give such a high level of grip on ice and snow that you can drive almost normally, because that's the impression that I get when reading about them here, or even in the manufacturer's adverts.

And what happens to them when the temperature gets over 10C? The weather in South East England can vary by 15 degrees week to week. So we can have a week at of snow, which partially thaws and turns the roads into lanes of rutted sheet ice with the temperature hovering around -1, then a week when the temperature is 12c, and all the snow and ice disappears for another year.

To me, that makes changing to winter tyres in my local for 2 weeks of snow and ice expensive as I think these tyres abrade considerably faster than normal tyres on tarmac.

I look forward to your (and anyone else's ) feedback.

[darbs]

Originally Posted by polsesnabb

Having been caught on summers by unexpected frost and snow a couple of times myself, I can assure all who go on about "adjusting the speed, making margins bigger" etc in order to use summers in winter, and perhaps never tried winter tyres themselves, that you REALLY have no idea how big the difference is! For instance conditions that would otherwise force you to abandon the car by the road on summers, compares to driving on a "loose" dirt road with winters.

Unfortunately, 4wd car drivers are less motivated to put winter tyres on their cars. This due to the fact that they more seldom get stuck, thus see less reasons to buy proper tyres. What they seem to forget, is that the same physical laws apply to them when braking or cornering, as to 2wd cars. This is an even bigger problem when considering that SUVs are heavier than most ordinary cars, and have a lower weight / surface contact ratio. For this reason, and the fact that SUVs gives the driver less feedback from the actual road conditions, SUVs are over represented in winter accidents by 50% compared to normal cars as per the Swedish Government Statistics Central "Folksam".

The idea about making margins bigger is also stupid, as contrary to what one might believe: Things happen in traffic that you are not necessarily in control of, or able to foresee / plan for. And even more so when conditions are extreme.. Under such circumstances, one wishes to have the best control possible. In the end, we are talking about the security of pedestrians and other traffickers.

i for one have always driven on summers in the winter in the past. in fact, winter tyres in the uk are only a fairly recent trend, and that's probably the main reason why i've only ever been on summers. that plus the generally mild winters we have compared to northern europe. the average temperature in the uk during the winter is about 4oC and snow and ice usually only visits for 1 or 2 weeks. during spring and autumn, average temp is about 9+. i personally know all the stats and evidence about how substantially better winters are on all conditions below 7oC except dry, although i have never driven on winters myself.

as for the point about driving slowly, keeping distance and being extra careful, i don't think it's stupid, it is the only and correct option on summer tyres on ice/ snow.

all that said, i may go for winters this year. not sure yet.

[volvorocks]

Originally Posted by darbs

as for the point about driving slowly, keeping distance and being extra careful, i don't think it's stupid, it is the only and correct option on summer tyres on ice/ snow.all that said, i may go for winters this year. not sure yet.

I don’t think Polsesnabb, per se, was saying, that it was stupid to drive slowly ,keep ones distance and be careful in snow on summers .

Even though Polsesnabb in his analogy uses the word stupid I took it in the context that he meant that it was a flawed consideration for one to believe that driving on summers much more carefully would be an ok option when compared to winters. I agree with this.

I also agree with you Darbs that this is the only option on summers!

If you only have the one car Darbs I think winters are a viable option for you

Hey ho off to order some winter tyres
(have found out I can get 3 sets of winters in small sizes for the price of 1 set for the XC (and our Nordic Volvos will probably break down in winter anyway!!!!) so this is what I am going to do )

Regards