TD04L-14T Hybrid Turbo New

[avfcS40]

Is there much mods required to fit a 16t turbo to a P2 T4 as ive recently bought one.

Cheers

[gmain1967]

Originally Posted by avfcS40

Is there much mods required to fit a 16t turbo to a P2 T4 as ive recently bought one.

Cheers

See post#27. Manifold, DP, cooling and oil lines. At least you already have turbo!

[T4FLY]

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

The only reason to fit a hybrid is so its a straight bolt on as some people seem don't want to do the very basic mods needed to fit a decent turbo. The hybrid does support slightly more power as seen from the graph, but imo its not worth it. Once you have an adapted manifold its problem solved anyway. You just have to spend a few a quid getting the DP modded and slightly fettling one of the lines to the turbo. It would still work out cheaper anyway than buying a hybrid. I dont know why more people don't have 16, 18, 19T, K24 etc. Its a pretty simple job. Running a bigger turbo at low boost will also see lower IAT's whilst still running more power and torque than a stock 14T could ever get to. Rod bending may be an issue if boosting high but, if you have a phase 2, mapping is not really a problem now either. If you are happy with 240bhp and 300lbft stick with a 14T, if not do the neccesary mods to fit a good sized turbo imo.

Depends what you are after, if you are wanting a relatively safe 260 or 270bhp then the 14T 16G hybrid is a good route to go down on the phase 2 T4 and it produces more than enough torque than I would need. I cant see how the 16 18 and 19T option works out cheaper but I'm interested to see what can result from these at low boost. My stage 3 cosworth was never out of the garage so was willing to exchange power for a bit more reliability.

[mitchyboy01]

Originally Posted by gmain1967

Each to their own Mitch. What cost would you put on getting a turbo from your list, getting a manifold amended/fabricated, modding the DP (I don't have the kit to work with stainless), sorting out the lines, changing injectors to suit greater fuelling needs etc?

Hi Grant,

Apologies in advance for the long post!

Until yours has been dyno'd we will never know how good these Ebay hybrids are. I don't doubt the quality as yours seems to be fine, it's just the power that's in doubt. What size turbine wheel and housing do they have as the Ebay listings only state the compressor side being 19T? I may have asked before but it would be essential to know before parting with my hard earned on one

OR

Even better....Why not pay £50, get it on the rollers then everyone will know whether or not they are worth it, instead of recommending a somewhat unknown turbo? If they produce 300bhp at just over a bar like a 'real' 19T, I will go and buy one in the New Year! I'll even pay some towards the power run as I'm very interested in the results myself!

As for your comments above, on a phase 1 you will almost certainly need bigger injectors for 270-280bhp anyway, even with the small hybrid available on this thread, so it would still not just be a simple bolt on. If you are going to go to the hastle custom of mapping, swapping injectors etc, would you be happy with 270bhp and a maxed out turbo, which, if it needs replacing will be costly as there are few, if any second hand?

Modding the lines, if you use another TD04 such as a 16T, pretty sure only one line needs modding. A 16T will cost around £100. A straight flange 15G/16T may even bolt to our stock DP?? I think it's the angled flanges that had the larger diameter outlet. Even if not, getting an exhaust shop to weld on a new flange will be around £100. I will try and find out about 'flanges' and update anyway. (I like experimenting with different flanges) LOL

Once you reach the limit of the MAF and injectors on the phase 1 (240-250bhp) you are stuck anyway. Unless you know someone who can do a true custom map to change the MAF parameters and scale for larger injectors, anything else is simply a bodge. As you know I have tried, and that's why I now have a phase 2, incase I want to be silly in the future. As you know, the phase 2 MAF and injectors have a lot more scope for tuning, as does the ECU (as it stands atm). Before someone says ''phase 2 blocks are weak'', if both phases are run with the stock internals (as 99.9% of people will), the limit is not the block on the phase 2, it's still the rods, exactly the same as with the phase 1.

Having owned a phase 1, phase 1.5 and phase 2 in that order I have found the phase 2 is a better car, probably because it has near on 1500 changes/improvements over the phase 1.

I guess people need to weigh up what car they have, what other mods are essential to run the turbo and ultimately how far they want to go in the future. This is where phase 1 cars are severely limited.

Please excuse the essay and going a bit off topic. I wanted to include as much information as possible for any new guys thinking of going the next step in tuning their T4 and not make the same 1000 mistakes I did.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[mitchyboy01]

Originally Posted by T4FLY

Depends what you are after, if you are wanting a relatively safe 260 or 270bhp then the 14T 16G hybrid is a good route to go down on the phase 2 T4 and it produces more than enough torque than I would need. I cant see how the 16 18 and 19T option works out cheaper but I'm interested to see what can result from these at low boost. My stage 3 cosworth was never out of the garage so was willing to exchange power for a bit more reliability.

Hi mate,

I agree,

The key part here is

''14T 16G hybrid is a good route to go down on the phase 2 T4''

On a phase 2 this really is a true bolt on turbo as the stock fuel system 'should' be able to keep up with added airflow. I say 'should' because this this assumes the fuel system is in tiptop condition.

I also see what your saying about the torque, this turbo seems to hang on to the torque for longer than a stock 14T although peak torque figures are similar. Either way, it's more than enough for a daily driver for 99% of people.

As I said above, I guess people need to weigh up what car they have, what other mods are essential to run the turbo and ultimately how far they want to go in the future. This is where phase 1 cars are severely limited as at this power (272bhp) the phase 1 grey injectors are past their max flow capability.

The power graph is there to be seen (from a phase 2) so what better for people to make their mind up and I'm sure that the same map can still be accessed.

Sorry for the thread going off topic, quite a good discussion though I think lol

Cheers,

Mitch.

[mitchyboy01]

I have just found out all the exhaust turbines are the same on the TD04 range and the main differences lie in the size of the outlet and actuator opening pressure. I'm definitely intrigued to see how your turbo performs now Grant!

[tommy t4]

Never said a hybrid mate, just a normal 19t bolt straight to a cut down 5cyl mani, spend to much money on hybrids pointless unless you going huge power I think.

[gmain1967]

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

I have just found out all the exhaust turbines are the same on the TD04 range and the main differences lie in the size of the outlet and actuator opening pressure. I'm definitely intrigued to see how your turbo performs now Grant!

Mitch, as I've said numerous times and detailed in various threads, car has not been on rollers and I have no intention of taking it to rollers. It was a one off by rally prep company who as I said "will not do another". Like I've said, if it makes 270, 280, 290 or cracks 300 bhp, I'm not bothered. I have a quick car, which realistically needs an LSD as even in dry, will break traction in third gear with the Yokos as it sits

I have done well in excess of 10K miles with the turbo which was a perfect fit out the box (bearing in mind I knew it had already been on a T4 as it was second hand having done around 500 miles on a car in Oz). As has also been detailed, I had done work on exhaust, DP and got Bosch 440cc injectors and an Innovate WB AFR with the turbo also so all good in that department.

Clincher for me is that the car has never let me down and never been off the road. I use it daily whether it be pottering into town or long run down South. Last run to Birmingham driving "sensibly", I got almost 38mpg so really do look to have a decent package.

Sorry to disappoint on the dyno front but I ain't working at the moment so taking car to RR solely to post up dyno figures on the forum isn't on my to do list - securing a job most definitely is (hence my selling of parts in recent months)!!! My Subaru's were given the "Andy Forrest" treatment and he also does live mapping on the road and doesn't have a dyno. That's my bottom line. I'm happy with how car drives and performs on the road.

As has been said, more than one way of skinning a cat and I've never poo poo'd anyone who wishes to go down the custom turbo route as opposed to the hybrid route. World would be boring if we all thought the same!

Cheers

Grant

[mitchyboy01]

Fair enough mate, sorry didn't realise you were out of work!
I am beginning to see the benefits of having a near standard car anyway! I use it everyday and know I can rely on it whereas my old one was a bit touch and go at times! Serves me right for using a turbo no one had ever fitted to a Volvo lol. Once you get over 300bhp the list of mods grows very quickly and the price to keep reliability also goes up quite a bit.

I've just sold my k24 for 2 reasons

1. After breaking my s40 I'm fed up with sitting in the cold working on a car
2. I need my car on road 100% of the time this year!
2.5. I would mind a jet ski this summer!

[960kg]

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

Hi Grant,

Apologies in advance for the long post!

Until yours has been dyno'd we will never know how good these Ebay hybrids are. I don't doubt the quality as yours seems to be fine, it's just the power that's in doubt. What size turbine wheel and housing do they have as the Ebay listings only state the compressor side being 19T? I may have asked before but it would be essential to know before parting with my hard earned on one

OR

Even better....Why not pay £50, get it on the rollers then everyone will know whether or not they are worth it, instead of recommending a somewhat unknown turbo? If they produce 300bhp at just over a bar like a 'real' 19T, I will go and buy one in the New Year! I'll even pay some towards the power run as I'm very interested in the results myself!

As for your comments above, on a phase 1 you will almost certainly need bigger injectors for 270-280bhp anyway, even with the small hybrid available on this thread, so it would still not just be a simple bolt on. If you are going to go to the hastle custom of mapping, swapping injectors etc, would you be happy with 270bhp and a maxed out turbo, which, if it needs replacing will be costly as there are few, if any second hand?

Modding the lines, if you use another TD04 such as a 16T, pretty sure only one line needs modding. A 16T will cost around £100. A straight flange 15G/16T may even bolt to our stock DP?? I think it's the angled flanges that had the larger diameter outlet. Even if not, getting an exhaust shop to weld on a new flange will be around £100. I will try and find out about 'flanges' and update anyway. (I like experimenting with different flanges) LOL

Once you reach the limit of the MAF and injectors on the phase 1 (240-250bhp) you are stuck anyway. Unless you know someone who can do a true custom map to change the MAF parameters and scale for larger injectors, anything else is simply a bodge. As you know I have tried, and that's why I now have a phase 2, incase I want to be silly in the future. As you know, the phase 2 MAF and injectors have a lot more scope for tuning, as does the ECU (as it stands atm). Before someone says ''phase 2 blocks are weak'', if both phases are run with the stock internals (as 99.9% of people will), the limit is not the block on the phase 2, it's still the rods, exactly the same as with the phase 1.

Having owned a phase 1, phase 1.5 and phase 2 in that order I have found the phase 2 is a better car, probably because it has near on 1500 changes/improvements over the phase 1.

I guess people need to weigh up what car they have, what other mods are essential to run the turbo and ultimately how far they want to go in the future. This is where phase 1 cars are severely limited.

Please excuse the essay and going a bit off topic. I wanted to include as much information as possible for any new guys thinking of going the next step in tuning their T4 and not make the same 1000 mistakes I did.

Cheers,

Mitch.

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

Hi mate,

I agree,

The key part here is

''14T 16G hybrid is a good route to go down on the phase 2 T4''

On a phase 2 this really is a true bolt on turbo as the stock fuel system 'should' be able to keep up with added airflow. I say 'should' because this this assumes the fuel system is in tiptop condition.

I also see what your saying about the torque, this turbo seems to hang on to the torque for longer than a stock 14T although peak torque figures are similar. Either way, it's more than enough for a daily driver for 99% of people.

As I said above, I guess people need to weigh up what car they have, what other mods are essential to run the turbo and ultimately how far they want to go in the future. This is where phase 1 cars are severely limited as at this power (272bhp) the phase 1 grey injectors are past their max flow capability.

The power graph is there to be seen (from a phase 2) so what better for people to make their mind up and I'm sure that the same map can still be accessed.

Sorry for the thread going off topic, quite a good discussion though I think lol

Cheers,

Mitch.

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

I have just found out all the exhaust turbines are the same on the TD04 range and the main differences lie in the size of the outlet and actuator opening pressure. I'm definitely intrigued to see how your turbo performs now Grant!

Originally Posted by mitchyboy01

Fair enough mate, sorry didn't realise you were out of work!
I am beginning to see the benefits of having a near standard car anyway! I use it everyday and know I can rely on it whereas my old one was a bit touch and go at times! Serves me right for using a turbo no one had ever fitted to a Volvo lol. Once you get over 300bhp the list of mods grows very quickly and the price to keep reliability also goes up quite a bit.

I've just sold my k24 for 2 reasons

1. After breaking my s40 I'm fed up with sitting in the cold working on a car
2. I need my car on road 100% of the time this year!
2.5. I would mind a jet ski this summer!

I have been reading your posts for some weeks now and it has come to the point where i have to butt in!

You do really disappear up your own exhaust pipe, because you knock the phase 1 as you have problems with it and nobody else seems to.

Why do you say max of MAF on Phase 1 is 240/250 or 272 for injectors!!...when you had 286 on the rollers or was that a misprint as i have a copy of the print out ?

I told you yonks ago that the K24 splits it`s casings but you just ridiculed me.....you probably now just sold the K24 because you know you made a mistake as the 19T is way stronger and more reliable than the K24 and producing very, very similar bhp. The K24 was Germanys biggest mistake.

You have a very grasshopper mind with what you do, one day it`s this and one day it`s that but in between slag others ideas or knowledge off maintaining that you know it all!!!

You surprise me you know so little about TDO4 turbos when you try to tell me what is best so i am glad that you are learning at last but learn your own way and not by others.

Leave Grant alone to do what he wants as he has already been there and done that and is happy what he has and does, and does not need you to preach about spending £50 on rollers to prove to you what his motor can do.

Spend your own money and forget the 1500 better FORD improvements to Phase 2 as they are nothing but CRAP.

Yes, the Phase 2 has weak liners and HG. The phase 1 has none of these and the rods are the same as the T5 five cylinder good for 400bhp with forge pistons which the Phase 2 has not.

You seem to forget i have owned two Phase 1 X40 and now own with my T5 V70 the 2001 1.8 Sport which is utter crap even at 72,000 to 91,000 miles that i have own it.

It really gets 10 out of 10 for the most uncomfortable Volvo and together with it`s leaks and noisy VVT and crap heater controls.

So get real and wake up and instead of being under the wifes thumb about your new motor just get on with it as you have told others in your posts about wifes interference.

Get your mechanic to take your car to bits and put the 19T in and see what all others say is true.