Turbo T28

[adieu]

Sorry no pictures yet, i will try and get them done tomorrow...work and all that stuff.

i've been doing a little hunting on the web for things relating to Turbo's. Here are some of the things i've found out.......

1. Try these websites. I don't understand all the things said or shown on them but i'm sure some of you will. Maybe someone in the know can comment? Stuart/Dan/Bobcat/Don.

http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothr...print&id=41288

http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm

http://web.telia.com/~u58304000/turb...mitsubishi.htm

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/

http://www.smokemup.com/tech/turbo101.php

http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/id1.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128139

http://devnulled.com/content/2004/01...ar-dsm-turbos/

Please note I have linked to the sites and NOT copied any information here

2. Found some more stuff about my turbo too :

The diameter of a Td04hl wheel is 56mm with a 43.4mm inducer, whereas the T28 wheel is 60mm diameter and has a 46.4mm inducer. Therefore the T28 is 14% larger which would roughly equate to a 40bhp higher maximum working range. You may have heard this before.

Hope this helps some of you. I know it confuses the hell outa me

The reason for me putting this information up is in the hope that someone makes sense of it and can prove the Garret T28 based Hybrid turbo can out perform a 19T, and perhaps Adams car had a software or mechincal fault which limited the boost to 1.08bar.

But I do know the T28 Hybrid I have fitted is a great Turbo and does an outstanding job.

Regards

Iain

[Dan F]

Originally Posted by adieu

The diameter of a Td04hl wheel is 56mm with a 43.4mm inducer, whereas the T28 wheel is 60mm diameter and has a 46.4mm inducer. Therefore the T28 is 14% larger which would roughly equate to a 40bhp higher maximum working range.

Hi.

Some nice links there.

However, I thought the TD04 part of the MHI nomenclature was relating to the turbine wheel/housing.
The 14T, 15G, 16T etc all relate to the compressor wheel sizes (no.) and design (G or T).
For example, the 16T and the 19T as used on Volvo cars, have exactly the same turbine wheels and housings, but (as I have seen) the compressor wheel in a 19T is substantially larger than the 16T. The entry to both turbos shows this well, as the 19T entry casting is machined out larger for the bigger wheel.
The turbine size used on these engines by Volvo themselves has been sized to allow the exhaust gasses to energise the turbine at the correct time/right amount of revs for a decent power band across the rev range of the standard *road engine* configuration.
That is why when you make the turbine housing/wheel bigger you cause more lag but it will flow more at the top end without getting too hot, but only if the engine has the capacity to drive it properly.
The only problem then is that if it is too big, the gases will never provide enough energy to really get the turbine going. That is why bigger turbos generally go on bigger capacity engines, because they can produce the volume of gas required to move the turbine wheel at a sufficient pace and heat. Basically if you take it to an extreme, a truck turbo will barely boost at all if you just slap it on a 2l engine as the little engine will not be able to produce enough gas to turn the wheel.
That is why bigger turbos work well on engines used for racing that are never used below 4000 rpm on the track. Boost is above that level where it is needed. If you were pulling away in traffic under normal highway conditions, with that config, you would never see any boost. Remember you are choosing a turbo for use with a road car where it is more practical and indeed safer, to have some decent power at low revs. If at the same time as fitting a bigger turbo you increase the engine capacity to match then you will get a much more tractable and powerful solution *for road use*. Going bigger and bigger on a turbo alone will only get you so far before the engine capacity simply will not drive it.
For example:
Anyone see where Jezza tested the FQ400? I think it was a corolla 1.6 they used and they did a rolling start at 20mph with both cars in top gear. Along the entire length of the runway, the EVO never caught up. In fact the turbo only started to spool as they ran out of space.
Of course if they had started in 1st gear the EVO would have eaten the other car for brekkie, but that wasn't the point, he was demonstrating the complete lack of flexibility of a huge turbo on a 'small' engine.
So correct sizing is paramount.
Cheers,
Dan.

[Dan F]

One thing I would like to add is that the T28 hybrid looks like it is indeed a good way to go, if you want to try a different route. If no-one tried anything different the 'cause' would never be furthered and the whole tuning game would run out of steam.
Personally I really loved the way the 19T was a *straight swap* for my 16T and gave substantially better perfomance (but still where it was needed as the turbine was the same size as before).
If I do it again, I may well do it differently, however as the development work has now progressed further with non OEM turbos, I would no longer be a guinea pig (which I had no wish to be, fair play to Iain for risking that) and the kits will be more 'tried and tested'.
Mitsu turbos are going to work very well with the engine as they were matched by Volvo, but the T28 looks like it offers a good day to day driving experience as well.
Dan.

[Dan F]

Originally Posted by adieu

The reason for me putting this information up is in the hope that someone makes sense of it and can prove the Garret T28 based Hybrid turbo can out perform a 19T

I would just like to say here that the T28 hybrid may well 'outpeform' a 19T, it may not, but the information you want is not based on a fair comparison.
Comparing a standard T28 to a 19T would be fair.
Conversely, someone could make a 19T hybrid and machine out the scrolls and add bigger wheels etc and that would maybe outperform both those turbos. So the fact the hybrid is re-manufactured to a spec higher than its name suggests means that (apart from the application it is used for) you cannot really compare them directly as you have stated.
Cheers,
Dan.
Editted to say: Also we would need a flow chart for this actual hybrid for the comparison to have any relevance, (although it would still not be a fair comparison for the aforementioned reasons). A standard T28 chart will not do, as that is not the actual unit we are talking about.

[bb54]

great work Dan F

wayne

[adieu]

So what you are saying if you don't mind me quoting you Dan is :"So the fact the hybrid is re-manufactured to a spec higher than its name suggests"

That my T28 Hybrid is better than a standard 19T?

Or have i miss read that?

If so could you do the comparrison between a 19T and a T28 for us and let us know which comes out on top. You have a far better understanding of turbo's than myself.

Regards

Iain

[bb54]

great work Dan F

wayne

[bobcat]

Dont worry Iain, i was sent some spy shots of the maha dyno today!! Its been put in the ground, 9" of concrete put down and some heavy duty anchor points put in.

So it wont be long untill you can bring the car down and we can prove what your turbo is capable off as it seems vt are struggling to even get it installed properly!!

Regards Iain's dyno picture, we can argue all day long about it but the simple fact is that its his picture and no one has the right to copy it without his permission, so if he asks for it to be removed hes well within his rights to do so.

[Dan F]

Originally Posted by adieu

So what you are saying if you don't mind me quoting you Dan is :"So the fact the hybrid is re-manufactured to a spec higher than its name suggests"

No, that was me saying that the T28 hybrid outperforms a stock T28. there is no way of testing a standard 19T against a T28 hybrid, unless a like for like test is done on the same engine.

Originally Posted by adieu

That my T28 Hybrid is better than a standard 19T?

Why do you keep using the term 'better'? It is all down to suitability of application. I know from first hand experience that the OEM 19T is a corker of an upgrade on the B5234T3 engine. However without removing that and strapping a T28 hybrid to my engine and giving it an equivalent map with identical boost levels, I will never know which one performs better in that particular application.

Originally Posted by adieu

Or have i miss read that?

I believe you did, yes.

Originally Posted by adieu

If so could you do the comparrison between a 19T and a T28 for us and let us know which comes out on top.

Is that the T28, or the T28 hybrid? It *does* make a difference.
However, Using the data to hand, I can do no more than I already have. I no longer own a vehicle where I could perform a comparison even if I had the time, money or will, to do so.

Originally Posted by adieu

You have a far better understanding of turbo's than myself

Thanks.
I do like to know as much as possible about something that interests me. Plus my Grandfather was a Royal Engineer and had me reciting how an engine worked from induction to exhaust, when I was only 3 1/2. (Not fun at that age, but it stuck).

Cheers,
Dan.

[adieu]

Sorry to have miss read your post Dan .

Maybe with the information provided from the links you could make an educated guess at which will give better boost/higher boost lvls and which will allow more flow. Using the Standard 19T and Standard T28. Just based on the turbo alone. Forget the car/engine etc just which turbo out of the 2 has the higher capacities etc.

Thanks

Iain