D5 (2005 on) Engine Oil

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

Castrol Edge Titanium has around 40ppm of Titanium I believe, that's approximately the same as other top brands. If it is a gimmick what did they use to replace the zinc if not titanium?

40 ppm is a joke, 400 ppm would work though! It's why some cheap non major oil mixers jumped the gun and started using it before Castrol. Just a marketing trick.

Castrol talk about alternatives, BUT they don't use them and just accept the fact the wear increase is not significant enough to breach Acea limits. Some oil companies did respond by seriously increasing the Moly (Mo) content, which helps. Mobil and the Japanese oil mixers did that, BUT it's swapping one problem for another sometimes. Honda and Nissan for example use their own label 0w20's that have around 5 to 700 ppm of Mo, which is nearly as much as a race oil. You can't make an oil with a lot of AW, EP or FM additives without cutting the detergent contents, so they had to reduce their max oil change interval as a result.

Ceratec thread on BITOG forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...pics/3007366/1

Note: Archoil is an expensive copy of LM Ceratec and MoS2 is top grade Moly only made by them. The twits that mix them forget that the two interfere with each other when depositing a new layer, also Cery already contains Moly, although only the same amount as a good oil does in terms of resulting mixed concentration.

Note: Very good G4 standard full synthetics do not need extra Moly, it was included in Cery to turn a cheap oil into a good one, before improving it further with Boron Nitride. So using a cheap major brand oil like Castrol GTX 10/40 and Cery, will produce better results than Edge 5/40. Castrol are aware of that, but the Germans have the top end of the oil additives game sewn up tight, so there is no way LM will sell their Boron Nitride to Castrol at present.

[Shadeyman]

If that's the case would you say Castrol Edge 0W40 plus LiquiMoly CeraTec is a better option than Castrol Edge Titanium 0W30 for my 2004 XC90 D5 SE with over 107,000 miles on the clock ?

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

If that's the case would you say Castrol Edge 0W40 plus LiquiMoly CeraTec is a better option than Castrol Edge Titanium 0W30 for my 2004 XC90 D5 SE with over 107,000 miles on the clock ?

YES, but pick the correct Edge 0/40 according to DPF use.
DPF fitted, use a C3 (Might want to look at Edge Turbo Diesel 5/40 as it's cheaper sometimes)
DPF FREE, use Edge 0 or 5/40 (Acea A3/B4).

Just to confuse things, Edge 0/30 is a real good winter oil, so if you use Cery and do winter/summer changes, it will save fuel to use a non titanium FST Edge 0/30.

[Shadeyman]

So:

6L of Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5W40(C3) = £52 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151101374528

300ml of LiquiMoly CERATEC = £20 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321464972419

Compared to what I had planned on paying for Castrol Edge Titanium, that's a saving of about £30, and according to you, better for my car.

Thanks, I'll give it a try ...

Don't have a DPF but C3 it is ...

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

So:

6L of Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5W40(C3) = £52 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151101374528

300ml of LiquiMoly CERATEC = £20 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321464972419

Compared to what I had planned on paying for Castrol Edge Titanium, that's a saving of about £30, and according to you, better for my car.

Thanks, I'll give it a try ...

Don't have a DPF but C3 it is ...

If you don't have a DPF, there is no real need to use a C3 oil, use an Acea A3/B4.

Edge of any type is expensive as Castrol have to provide it at cost to Volvo and other car companies that designate it as OEM, just to allow the use of their name and the approved designation. Then add the cost of all the advertising and it's never going to be a cheap oil.

Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 (A3/B4) should be much cheaper, then just use half a can of Cery.
Seems to be 37 quid inc postage for 6 liters.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5L-SHELL-H...item20c819e9e5

(Half a can of Ceratec will add about a tenner, although it's worth checking Opie and other oil suppliers like Halfrauds for special offers)

The results first on the left are for Shell Ultra 5/40 (A3/B4) plus only 100ml of Ceratec, the bad one in the previous run were from testing Edge Turbo Diesel 5/40, an Acea C3. I used Ultra again, but increased to 200 ml of Ceratec to see if it improved the figures (Unlikely) and ignore the low viscosity figures as an idle flush was used just before the change. The corrected figures show no fuel contamination and the same viscosity as Edge after 10K km.

[Backhill1]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

So:

6L of Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5W40(C3) = £52 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151101374528

300ml of LiquiMoly CERATEC = £20 including delivery
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321464972419

Compared to what I had planned on paying for Castrol Edge Titanium, that's a saving of about £30, and according to you, better for my car.

Thanks, I'll give it a try ...

Don't have a DPF but C3 it is ...

Shadeyman

The earlier D5 is a great engine with lower service intervals (i think 12.5K) and not known for cylinder wear issues or oil consumption.
I think sticking with the OEM spec oil of a reputable manufacturer will see your engine to 300K plus without wear issues if serviced at the correct intervals.

I appreciate that in certain circumstance increasing the MO content might appear to be a good idea but without knowing the exact make-up of the detergents used can be a really bad idea as they can actually work against each other and create all sort of counterproductive problems. Where you have piston cooling jets it can actually create a level of foaming that removes cylinder lubrication to a level where they will pick up causing eventual failure (extreme circumstances that I have only witnessed on a few occasions).

This is why no engine manufacturer that I know of will endorse or recommend an additive unless under exceptional circumstances where it has been tested with an approved oil for use in specific application.

Save yourself the £20 on this additive it is completely unnecessary with a good oil and the D5 engine, you really could do more harm than good.

If the mix of your chosen oil and engine additive have been extensively tested and approved and documented in field trials then I would say it’s a calculated risk but tread with care.

This might be an area of more documented science in Germany but just using basic tribology rules tell us its not to be taken likely.

[Backhill1]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Firstly Volvo do not develop or test engines or gearboxes, they just look around at what is available and use another cars engine and drive train. Their service intervals are based on maximum limits, so it says in their documents that the maximum oil change is X miles, or should be based on an OLM service due light in newer cars.
It is upto an owner when they wish to change the oil, although it's very unlikely that using the max OCI will result in a failure within the warranty period, although not impossible.

Skyship i am only commenting on the question in hand which is in reference to the D5 Euro 4 Engine. This was not a general lubrication OP but one specific to someones question in relation to suitable alternatives to Castrol as per Volvo recommendations.

The D5 was a fully designed and developed Volvo engine not brought in or adopted. In addition it is used commercially and industrially as a D3 where it is designed for longevity (not merely the warranty period).

Volvo Penta have an enviable reputation as one of the best diesel engine manufacturer’s in the world and take this very serious, to allude that no engine testing took place and that service intervals are chosen flippantly I find to be a very confusing comment to make especially on a Volvo forum. In service the samples of a Volvo D5 at change interval will almost always be still fully acceptable for +30% in the UK.

Having undertaken engine testing with manufactures (not Volvo) and oil companies to gain approval and endurance testing in the field I can assure you that Volvo will have done this extensively and there recommendations will very much be on the safe side. Even during the warranty period there is no way they will knowingly release an car in service knowing they are risking the extended life of the engine. I think you will find the interval is recommended not maximum.

It’s interesting that you have a liking to Shell products as there facility in Stanlow UK (I believe now closed) was the home of a lot of testing for different engines and lubricants and Ferrari even set up home there for engine/ lubricant testing until they moved it back to Italy and to say they were industry leading would be an understatement. Some real state of the art stuff was achieved.

What I always found interesting with type testing was that after strip and inspection with just new gaskets the engines always performed like new until the next interval and again and again yet in vehicle or service this would have been unlikely. Shows the difference between a factory environment and your normal garage.

I’m curious around you perpetual promotion of this additive, do you work for the company or have vested interests with the product? Do you own and run a fleet of vehicles that you have type tested the use of the product? Have you stripped thousands of engines and witnessed reduced wear on components to substantiate its benefits? Do you work for an engine manufacturer that uses this in its first fill, I notice you are from the home of MTU one of the best diesel engine manufacturers in the world?

If someone has a failure after using this product I doubt there will be any recompense from either advice issued or the manufacturer of this product, something to consider when making recommendations.

[Clan]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Firstly Volvo do not develop or test engines or gearboxes, they just look around at what is available and use another cars engine and drive train. Their service intervals are based on maximum limits, so it says in their documents that the maximum oil change is X miles, or should be based on an OLM service due light in newer cars.
It is upto an owner when they wish to change the oil, although it's very unlikely that using the max OCI will result in a failure within the warranty period, although not impossible.

The real issue is that owners of older diesels get confused over what A5/B5 designation is about, because it only applies to x/30 grade oils. No one in a German Volvo dealer or Iffy lube using non Castrol Edge oils uses an x/30, it's not allowed because test have revealed high oil consumption at autobahn speeds and higher leak rates. The German Volvo dealers use Edge 0/40 not 0/30 in older cars (There are DPF rated versions of Edge 0/40).

Liqui Moly are owned by Foochs (With a u and not oo) the biggest German refinery owner and are world leaders in oil additive technology.
Ceratec was fully tested in a variety of engines and is based on a mix of top grade Moly (Mo) and Boron Nitride in an ultra fine suspension form. Both chemicals have been used for many years as oil additives in race car and truck engines.

One of the Millers oils contains a copy of Ceratec, BUT it costs big bucks and is for race use only. VW do recommend its use and their dealers sell it in Germany for use with older TDI engines. It reduces rattles and cuts the Iron and other wear metals in a used oil analysis in half, although it may not be as effective as changing to an expensive G4 5/40 Synthoil in some cases. It's easy to find in the UK. TDS:

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/m...a%20Tec_EN.pdf

German car engines get pushed very hard on long autobahn trips and Cery was developed because VW in particular knew they were getting issues with high oil consumption rates with DPF equipped cars, so could not change to using an HDEO like Mobil Delvac as those oils have too much Zinc. Using thicker oils under warranty is a no go because it changes fuel consumption, so there was a big need for a longer lasting oil additive than normal Moly.

A dealer can't use oil additives, although they can sell them. Mixing products is not a certified procedure, so they just sell you the can. They do not use it and even I would not use it if an engine is under warranty. It's been in use for many years even with new engines and no one has ever reported an increase in oil consumption, in fact it will reduce it in older engines.

The Teflon and MoS2 sprays used to line new engine cylinders are only used to improve the way the rings bed in and to avoid issues caused by owner abuse or changing the factory fill oil too early. It also allows Edge or other full synthetics to be used for factory fill, which avoids confusion over which oil to use as a top up.

In reality most owners miss the point about the advantages of using a better oil mix than an
A5/B5 0w30, as the first thing to fail if you don't get the oil game right is the turbo bearings. Slighty thicker oil and Ceratec will help reduce turbo bearing wear, so it's worth a tenner an oil change to improve the mix in my opinion, even though I use Shell Ultra which is rather ahead in base stock quality terms in comparison to an HC synthetic like Edge and much cheaper.

Unbelievable ! of course they do .. or are you only familiar with the ford engined volvos ? even Ford use/d the volvo 5 cylinder petrol engine in their top of the range focus . ...

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by backhill1

skyship i am only commenting on the question in hand which is in reference to the d5 euro 4 engine. This was not a general lubrication op but one specific to someones question in relation to suitable alternatives to castrol as per volvo recommendations.
My posts are always general as this is the diesel section and it's not just the op involved
the d5 was a fully designed and developed volvo engine not brought in or adopted. In addition it is used commercially and industrially as a d3 where it is designed for longevity (not merely the warranty period).
Volvo penta have an enviable reputation as one of the best diesel engine manufacturer’s in the world and take this very serious, to allude that no engine testing took place and that service intervals are chosen flippantly i find to be a very confusing comment to make especially on a volvo forum. In service the samples of a volvo d5 at change interval will almost always be still fully acceptable for +30% in the uk.
Volvo have never published any test results, so no one knows and if you have even a minor hg leak it can trash the detergents in the oil very quickly
having undertaken engine testing with manufactures (not volvo) and oil companies to gain approval and endurance testing in the field i can assure you that volvo will have done this extensively and there recommendations will very much be on the safe side.
They still get main block failures that can be avoided.
Even during the warranty period there is no way they will knowingly release an car in service knowing they are risking the extended life of the engine. I think you will find the interval is recommended not maximum.
They do that every day in the uk in particular by using poor quality engine oil, magnetec in particular, which is ok but not good enough for the max oci with an older block.
It’s interesting that you have a liking to shell products as there facility in stanlow uk (i believe now closed) was the home of a lot of testing for different engines and lubricants and ferrari even set up home there for engine/ lubricant testing until they moved it back to italy and to say they were industry leading would be an understatement. Some real state of the art stuff was achieved.
The only oil that produces better uoa results than shell ultra is liqui moly synthoil, but it's far too expensive and only a fraction better anyway. Same story with redline and amsoil, good but too expensive.
What i always found interesting with type testing was that after strip and inspection with just new gaskets the engines always performed like new until the next interval and again and again yet in vehicle or service this would have been unlikely. Shows the difference between a factory environment and your normal garage.
I base my decisions on actual uoa results and checks on a local oil lab data base that has a lot of tdi engine particle count info, type testing does not involve old engines that contaminate their oil. You need a grinder to get the boron nitride layer off a coated surface, so it's a real block saver in the real world of hg failures, fuel contamination, overheating and too long an oci.
I’m curious around you perpetual promotion of this additive, do you work for the company or have vested interests with the product? Do you own and run a fleet of vehicles that you have type tested the use of the product? Have you stripped thousands of engines and witnessed reduced wear on components to substantiate its benefits? Do you work for an engine manufacturer that uses this in its first fill, i notice you are from the home of mtu one of the best diesel engine manufacturers in the world?
I do work very part time for zf gearboxes and know both liqui moly and mtu r&d folks. The zf oil lab chaps all swear by ceratec in older or high mileage tdi engines, even though they use mostly castrol based fluids.
If someone has a failure after using this product i doubt there will be any recompense from either advice issued or the manufacturer of this product, something to consider when making recommendations.

it says in my signature dyor for do your own research, as volvo are like all modern car companies, they have no real interest in an owner that keeps a car as long as possible, it's bad for their business.
I would note that Castrol have had product recalls before, so are not exactly upto German standards in QA batch testing.
There has never been a case recorded of ceratec or any of the tuv approved oil additives made by liqui moly not doing exactly what it says on their data sheet. All their additives meet minimum lubricity requirements for race use. I've never seen a uoa result of before and after use or ceratec that did not show a significant improvement.
If you want the best from a main block you need to use oem filters, mix your own oil brew (or spend more on expensive german standard synthetics) and base change intervals on actual uoa results. That often means 2 oil changes per oil filter change for older car engines.

[skyship007]

[QUOTE=Clan;Unbelievable ! of course they do .. or are you only familiar with the ford engined volvos ? even Ford use/d the volvo 5 cylinder petrol engine in their top of the range focus . ...[/QUOTE]

UMM, This thread is in the diesel section and all my comments are for turbo diesels.