What's the problem with electric cars?

[Wagon Sailor]

If the sound of a car represents lost energy, and I think it does in most cases, then an electric car appeals.

But there's something joyful about the different noises made by fossil-fuelled internal combustion. Closing your eyes and identifying an MGB or a Morris Minor by exhaust notes alone was fun when we were boys. And though now older and more crooked, some of us are still boys when it comes to that special mixture of in- and ex-halation you get with a performance car.

[Whippy]

Originally Posted by Forg

Oooh ta, Sabine's good value!


Ah, another entry into the huge tome of "responded to something without even having read it" ... you've linked another copy of exactly the same video.

Am I doing something wrong? When I checked the first link I get Harry's garage??

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Am I doing something wrong? When I checked the first link I get Harry's garage??

If you're not "doing it wrong", think about who probably is ... I'll leave my post mostly as it is, just as embarrassing proof of my stupid mistake!
*edit*
Can't change it anyway.

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

Found this interesting.... (long watch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

Great video. He's spot on.

Those pushing for electric cars don't understand. EV's are getting bigger and bigger in terms of size, with bigger batteries, bigger motor's producing more power and a bigger price tag. They haven't become more efficient like diesel's or petrol's did over the years. Slap a bigger battery in it and that'll do is the attitude now... that's not efficient.

[GSS]

Originally Posted by Kev0607

Those pushing for electric cars don't understand. EV's are getting bigger and bigger in terms of size

And they are a pain the a*se when the only available parking space at the supermarket, etc. is between one of these two monsters.

[Tannaton]

For me it is almost 2 debates...

- Whether electric cars are an option to replace ICE, and is that every use case?

- Whether the industry so far has made a good job of electric cars and how well do we as consumers understand them?

I think Harry's video touches more on the latter. If the motor industry truly wanted to use EV's as a vehicle to save the planet from climate change, we'd have small Fiesta, Focus sized cars with broadly the same performance as their economy biased ICE siblings (i.e. circa 75-100 BHP) with good range and built with lightweight materials. Instead we have effectively big, fat racing cars..... It's just proved that our society is a temple of consumption and we'll only change our ways if there is something in it for us.

The relatively young EV industry is already in decline, but how much of that is because it was never going to be a suitable replacement for all ICE or becuase the industry has made a mess of it? It's a combination of both, but it which proportion?

It was also interesting how use patterns can double, even triple battery degredation. Fast DC charging seems to half the battery useful life. People are still talking about battery age, but it is as much, if not more, about charging cycles and how deep and aggressive those cycles are.

[FreshAir]

EV have had to have some headline/marketing acceleration to try and draw some owners in, and most of us are not interested in that even though we may have raced in the past.

You are quite right in that they are then creating larger vehicles that we really need, which could also be said for our beloved V70's etc.

In the a high mileage ex company/lease car could be a good buy as they have been easy motorway miles with maintenance always completed. Now those ex company car EV's are probably the last ones to get.

The reason for that is that the battery is more likely to have always been charged to 100% to maximise the range available as the driver has no care about how long the battery lasts. They are also more likely to have had more high current/speed charges done to minimise the 'downtime' when travelling as the cost of it is all expensed.

The EV you would want with current battery tech is one that has been charged between 20 and 80% at home on a slow charger most of the time, with very rare charges above 80%.

Even mobile phone manufacturers now provide the option to stop your device charging past 85% to maximise battery life.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by FreshAir

EV have had to have some headline/marketing acceleration to try and draw some owners in, and most of us are not interested in that even though we may have raced in the past.

You are quite right in that they are then creating larger vehicles that we really need, which could also be said for our beloved V70's etc.

In the a high mileage ex company/lease car could be a good buy as they have been easy motorway miles with maintenance always completed. Now those ex company car EV's are probably the last ones to get.

The reason for that is that the battery is more likely to have always been charged to 100% to maximise the range available as the driver has no care about how long the battery lasts. They are also more likely to have had more high current/speed charges done to minimise the 'downtime' when travelling as the cost of it is all expensed.

The EV you would want with current battery tech is one that has been charged between 20 and 80% at home on a slow charger most of the time, with very rare charges above 80%.

Even mobile phone manufacturers now provide the option to stop your device charging past 85% to maximise battery life.

That's a really good point..... ex-rep's cars are no longer the safer option!

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

For me it is almost 2 debates...

- Whether electric cars are an option to replace ICE, and is that every use case?

- Whether the industry so far has made a good job of electric cars and how well do we as consumers understand them?

I think Harry's video touches more on the latter. If the motor industry truly wanted to use EV's as a vehicle to save the planet from climate change, we'd have small Fiesta, Focus sized cars with broadly the same performance as their economy biased ICE siblings (i.e. circa 75-100 BHP) with good range and built with lightweight materials. Instead we have effectively big, fat racing cars..... It's just proved that our society is a temple of consumption and we'll only change our ways if there is something in it for us.

The relatively young EV industry is already in decline, but how much of that is because it was never going to be a suitable replacement for all ICE or becuase the industry has made a mess of it? It's a combination of both, but it which proportion?

It was also interesting how use patterns can double, even triple battery degredation. Fast DC charging seems to half the battery useful life. People are still talking about battery age, but it is as much, if not more, about charging cycles and how deep and aggressive those cycles are.

CO2 emissions coming from cars in the scale of things is only a drop in the ocean. Cars alone actually only equate to approximately 7% of all CO2 emissions being released into the atmosphere. Yes, its still 7%, but those that hold positions of power basically just go "Oh, EV's are zero emission, lets go with that", but they aren't looking at the bigger picture.

If we go large scale into EV's, CO2 isn't going to drop, if anything it'll go up because emissions are created making the batteries! We aren't going in the right direction. Instead of improving efficiency like what happened with ICE cars, EV's are getting bigger batteries instead and the size of the cars is increasing. That's not improving efficiency, that's just putting a plaster over the bleeding artery.

Like you say, smaller cars are the answer to reduce CO2 from vehicles. They cost less to produce, weigh less and that means less energy to stop, they won't take as much power to charge them because they don't weigh the guts of 3 tonnes like some of the luxury EV's available and will be more affordable for people to buy. The price of EV's is still very high, despite it being a failing market right now.

Let's face it, I can't see smaller and more affordable EV's being on offer anytime soon and big SUV's being ditched. Those that buy a Range Rover EV for example aren't short of cash, so charging it won't be a problem to them. Those that drive Range Rover's generally don't want a smaller car... they bought a Range Rover for a reason and want the comfort and image that a Range Rover gives. Downsizing to a smaller EV would be a big shock to the system for people used to ultra luxury, but honestly, I think it has to happen. Making huge SUV's isn't the answer to reducing CO2 emissions from vehicles. The Government's and those involved in pushing the green agenda just don't see it.

With regards to battery degradation, I think this happens because people are on the move and don't have time to charge at home or simply can't. They rely on public fast chargers, which are currently much more expensive than your regular home electric tariff. Fast charging doesn't help batteries, but when you need to charge to get to your next destination because there's not enough left to carry on, your options are really limited. Charging at home is ideal, but its not always possible for a variety of reasons.

The head of Toyota has also said that he doesn't think EV's will ever be mass market, as in they won't replace ICE cars completely. There may well be more EV's on the road in future, but that's about it. Interesting.

[GMcL]

Big cars = Bigger profits, small cars = marginal profits.

Mercedes don't put the latest tech in an A class and roll it up through to the S class, racing technology doesn't start in go-karts and make it's way up to F1.

Given auto makers have been told they have to forget most of what they have known for the last ten or more decades and pretty much learn again combined with the reported loss each vehicle sold represents, it'll be a while before small cars, genuinely small cars, exist again.
This shift is costing manufacturers billions, some won't make it.

Park a FIAT 500 from the 1950s next to a new one and talk about small city cars.