Engine: TDI: - Hard to start

NI_Volvo_Nut · Dec 8th, 2009, 07:05

Ok folks, I've searched and found SFA, so now its time to ask...

I'm trying to get an idea before I start serviceing and working on the S70 on thursday when I'm off. Its very very hard to start, not just as bad when the glow plugs are heating, but without the glow plugs it nearly flattens the battery trying to start, when it does start, its very smokey, only due to the amount of cranking I would guess, doesn't run lumpy, but if I don't hold a slight rev on it, it would fire and die. I changed the fuel filter on Sunday, as I was told the filters are known to collaspe and cause starting and running issues. To me the car feels slightly under powered, but not having driven one before I'm not including this into the symptoms, as my Dad drove the car and doesn't find anything wrong with the power of it, but to me it seems to have improved slightly with the new filter. Also when its cold it has what can only be described as a misfire / chugging, but not severe, a non mechanically minded person may not even notice it.

Thought and comments people....

One VW mechanic has said that compression is probably low, but to me it sounds strong enough when cranking. Lambda light is also on, I have tried disconnecting the battery to put it out, but I'd imagine there's either a fault, or its coming on due to the amount of cranking to get it to start. A friend is coming today to read the codes for me.

tdi · Dec 8th, 2009, 07:37

sounds like dynamic pump timing this is critical on these engines, it should be checked every 20000 miles,it can only be done with the correct software and the engine running and up to temp. a good diesel specialist or volvo indi will be able to do it for you.

NI_Volvo_Nut · Dec 8th, 2009, 20:29

After a bit of brain storming today in work, we decided it was pump timing, there was 7 fault codes stored, can't remember them excatly now, but 2 of them related to pump timing, other we think we stored as a result of cranking with poor batteries ect. Faults clears, still hard to start, but no more faults stored, and no lights on.
When the car came, it had an old pump belt in the boot, so I'm hoping I'm going to find the pump out a tooth or the belt slack.

NI_Volvo_Nut · Dec 11th, 2009, 18:38

Ok, belts replaced, found a mark on the crank, and one on the injection pump, not sure about the ones on the cam, found a nic in the rear pulley with seemed to line up to the from of the cyl head with the rocker cover removed.
So made my own marks of where everything was before I started, pump timing seemed out 1 tooth, messed about with it, found the tensioners not sitting right, got everything set up according to autodata, but not really any different tbh, starts easier when cold, but still not starting great. Churns over for a good 10 - 20 seconds before firing, when it does fire, it starts clean and smooth, a bit of blue smoke, but not a fog by any means.
Any thoughts or ideas folks? Theres about 1 - 2 lts too much oil in the engine, can't see this causing the problem? Sump bung is all chewed up, so need to get a new bung before I can change the oil. Changed a fuel filter and air filter, checked all vacuum hoses. Doesn't seem to be a diesel leak issue, as I can drive 100 miles switch off and try to restart it immediatly and it still churns to start.

Clan · Dec 11th, 2009, 22:01

I think you need to start from scratch with the Cam timing and pump timing .
The crank pulley can come loose on these as they are often tightened incorrectly and they then wobble about and wear the end of the crankshaft and keyway . Once this has happened it is almost impossible to keep the lower pulley tight and from moving for long .
The crank TDC mark on the pulley is only an indication it is not accurate enough , the mark you need is on the flywheel through an opening on the bottom, (an arrow lines up with a "0" ) .
The camshaft needs a special tool to fit in the rear end of the camshaft to align it to crank TDC . There are NO Marks on the cam pulleys , ignore any other people may have put on to help them when they dont do it correctly ! Finaly the pump marks must align and fine tuning done with the aid of the volvo scan tool or the pump timing code will appear .
Neither the camshaft drive pulley or the fuel pump drive pulley are keyed to the camshaft . they will fit on anywhere as they are tapered .

This is realy a job for someone experienced with these engines , learning can take a long time and have the possibility of bending valves or loosing yourself and the basic settings ... .

Martin Cox · Dec 11th, 2009, 22:36

I'd agree with all the comments about dynamic pump timing - it really is quite critical and poor starting is one of the problems if it's out - smoke, low power and poor fuel consumption are also syptoms. If the timing's right and everyting else is OK It should start more or less first turn every time.

I'd be a bit concerned about the high oil level. With some engines if the oil level is too high the oil can find its way into the air intake and the engine will race away uncontrollably to self destruction. There have been other threads about this, more particularly with reference to the S40 engines.

If it was a simple case of overfilling, then drain some oil out to the correct level. Another possibility is that diesel is finding its way into the oil and diluting it. If the oil level appears to rise, then this is a possibility. Either way I'd drain it down to the correct level, or better still do an oil change and put the correct amount in and then watch the level very carefully.

Hope this is of some help

Martin

NI_Volvo_Nut · Dec 12th, 2009, 07:28

Thanks guys, pretty much what I was expecting

Martin, the sump bung is all chewed up, I have the bits to do an oil changed, just can't get the old bung out and don't want to try until I have a replacement.

Martin Cox · Dec 12th, 2009, 10:31

Quite understand about the sump bung - it does make life difficult. If you just want to lower the oil level a bit, you might be able to do it by removing the oil filter, emptying it of oil, putting it back again, cranking the engine over to fill the filter and repeating until the level is about correct. Potentially messy but probably effective.

Martin

NI_Volvo_Nut · Dec 12th, 2009, 12:35

I had thought of that Martin, but the filter is quite near the top of the engine and it woul dmake a hell of a mess. If it goes on much longer I'll get the lend of a sump sucker thingy and suck it out through the dip stick, not ideal, but I'd be happier with an oil change that way than not at all.

alv70d1999 · Dec 12th, 2009, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by NI_Volvo_Nut

I had thought of that Martin, but the filter is quite near the top of the engine and it woul dmake a hell of a mess. If it goes on much longer I'll get the lend of a sump sucker thingy and suck it out through the dip stick, not ideal, but I'd be happier with an oil change that way than not at all.

i was just going to mention the sump sucker thing lol....

Dec 8th, 2009, 07:05	#1
NI_Volvo_Nut Volvologist Last Online: Dec 6th, 2023 11:13 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bangor - Norn Iron View Photos By: NI_Volvo_Nut	Hard to start Ok folks, I've searched and found SFA, so now its time to ask... I'm trying to get an idea before I start serviceing and working on the S70 on thursday when I'm off. Its very very hard to start, not just as bad when the glow plugs are heating, but without the glow plugs it nearly flattens the battery trying to start, when it does start, its very smokey, only due to the amount of cranking I would guess, doesn't run lumpy, but if I don't hold a slight rev on it, it would fire and die. I changed the fuel filter on Sunday, as I was told the filters are known to collaspe and cause starting and running issues. To me the car feels slightly under powered, but not having driven one before I'm not including this into the symptoms, as my Dad drove the car and doesn't find anything wrong with the power of it, but to me it seems to have improved slightly with the new filter. Also when its cold it has what can only be described as a misfire / chugging, but not severe, a non mechanically minded person may not even notice it. Thought and comments people.... One VW mechanic has said that compression is probably low, but to me it sounds strong enough when cranking. Lambda light is also on, I have tried disconnecting the battery to put it out, but I'd imagine there's either a fault, or its coming on due to the amount of cranking to get it to start. A friend is coming today to read the codes for me. __________________ What's the matter with the car I'm driving? Can't you tell that it's out of style? Should I get a set of white wall tires? Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?

Dec 8th, 2009, 20:29	#3
NI_Volvo_Nut Volvologist Last Online: Dec 6th, 2023 11:13 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bangor - Norn Iron View Photos By: NI_Volvo_Nut	After a bit of brain storming today in work, we decided it was pump timing, there was 7 fault codes stored, can't remember them excatly now, but 2 of them related to pump timing, other we think we stored as a result of cranking with poor batteries ect. Faults clears, still hard to start, but no more faults stored, and no lights on. When the car came, it had an old pump belt in the boot, so I'm hoping I'm going to find the pump out a tooth or the belt slack. __________________ What's the matter with the car I'm driving? Can't you tell that it's out of style? Should I get a set of white wall tires? Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?

Dec 11th, 2009, 18:38	#4
NI_Volvo_Nut Volvologist Last Online: Dec 6th, 2023 11:13 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bangor - Norn Iron View Photos By: NI_Volvo_Nut	Ok, belts replaced, found a mark on the crank, and one on the injection pump, not sure about the ones on the cam, found a nic in the rear pulley with seemed to line up to the from of the cyl head with the rocker cover removed. So made my own marks of where everything was before I started, pump timing seemed out 1 tooth, messed about with it, found the tensioners not sitting right, got everything set up according to autodata, but not really any different tbh, starts easier when cold, but still not starting great. Churns over for a good 10 - 20 seconds before firing, when it does fire, it starts clean and smooth, a bit of blue smoke, but not a fog by any means. Any thoughts or ideas folks? Theres about 1 - 2 lts too much oil in the engine, can't see this causing the problem? Sump bung is all chewed up, so need to get a new bung before I can change the oil. Changed a fuel filter and air filter, checked all vacuum hoses. Doesn't seem to be a diesel leak issue, as I can drive 100 miles switch off and try to restart it immediatly and it still churns to start. __________________ What's the matter with the car I'm driving? Can't you tell that it's out of style? Should I get a set of white wall tires? Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?

Dec 11th, 2009, 22:01	#5
Clan Experienced Member Last Online: Today 12:56 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: L/H side	I think you need to start from scratch with the Cam timing and pump timing . The crank pulley can come loose on these as they are often tightened incorrectly and they then wobble about and wear the end of the crankshaft and keyway . Once this has happened it is almost impossible to keep the lower pulley tight and from moving for long . The crank TDC mark on the pulley is only an indication it is not accurate enough , the mark you need is on the flywheel through an opening on the bottom, (an arrow lines up with a "0" ) . The camshaft needs a special tool to fit in the rear end of the camshaft to align it to crank TDC . There are NO Marks on the cam pulleys , ignore any other people may have put on to help them when they dont do it correctly ! Finaly the pump marks must align and fine tuning done with the aid of the volvo scan tool or the pump timing code will appear . Neither the camshaft drive pulley or the fuel pump drive pulley are keyed to the camshaft . they will fit on anywhere as they are tapered . This is realy a job for someone experienced with these engines , learning can take a long time and have the possibility of bending valves or loosing yourself and the basic settings ... . __________________ My comments are only based on my opinions and vast experience .

Dec 12th, 2009, 07:28	#7
NI_Volvo_Nut Volvologist Last Online: Dec 6th, 2023 11:13 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bangor - Norn Iron View Photos By: NI_Volvo_Nut	Thanks guys, pretty much what I was expecting Martin, the sump bung is all chewed up, I have the bits to do an oil changed, just can't get the old bung out and don't want to try until I have a replacement. __________________ What's the matter with the car I'm driving? Can't you tell that it's out of style? Should I get a set of white wall tires? Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?

Dec 8th, 2009, 07:37	#2
tdi Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 14:58 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: waterlooville	sounds like dynamic pump timing this is critical on these engines, it should be checked every 20000 miles,it can only be done with the correct software and the engine running and up to temp. a good diesel specialist or volvo indi will be able to do it for you.

Dec 11th, 2009, 22:36	#6
Martin Cox VOC Member Last Online: Today 11:17 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hull	I'd agree with all the comments about dynamic pump timing - it really is quite critical and poor starting is one of the problems if it's out - smoke, low power and poor fuel consumption are also syptoms. If the timing's right and everyting else is OK It should start more or less first turn every time. I'd be a bit concerned about the high oil level. With some engines if the oil level is too high the oil can find its way into the air intake and the engine will race away uncontrollably to self destruction. There have been other threads about this, more particularly with reference to the S40 engines. If it was a simple case of overfilling, then drain some oil out to the correct level. Another possibility is that diesel is finding its way into the oil and diluting it. If the oil level appears to rise, then this is a possibility. Either way I'd drain it down to the correct level, or better still do an oil change and put the correct amount in and then watch the level very carefully. Hope this is of some help Martin

Dec 12th, 2009, 10:31	#8
Martin Cox VOC Member Last Online: Today 11:17 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hull	Quite understand about the sump bung - it does make life difficult. If you just want to lower the oil level a bit, you might be able to do it by removing the oil filter, emptying it of oil, putting it back again, cranking the engine over to fill the filter and repeating until the level is about correct. Potentially messy but probably effective. Martin

Dec 12th, 2009, 12:35	#9
NI_Volvo_Nut Volvologist Last Online: Dec 6th, 2023 11:13 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bangor - Norn Iron View Photos By: NI_Volvo_Nut	I had thought of that Martin, but the filter is quite near the top of the engine and it woul dmake a hell of a mess. If it goes on much longer I'll get the lend of a sump sucker thingy and suck it out through the dip stick, not ideal, but I'd be happier with an oil change that way than not at all. __________________ What's the matter with the car I'm driving? Can't you tell that it's out of style? Should I get a set of white wall tires? Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?

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