European driving standards are horrendous!

[Laney760]

Originally Posted by SwissXC90

Belgium and north Holland are not Europe

Just like Wales is not Great Britain

You need to increase your sample size before you can reach a conclusion....

Tailgating in bad weather seen throughout France, Belgium and North Holland on my very first driving experience in Europe was enough to give me a very bad impression of European driving. Driving back 3 days later I was also not very impressed with standards either. Another frequent visitor to the festival, a professional, also stated how bad they found the driving to be and how nervous they had been

[ksmi]

I do realize, strictly speaking,it is not all European,but I found in the past the worse drivers in general,I came across in Europe, were in Turkey,driving in Brussels was child's play compared with "entering the fray"between the Greek border and Istanbul,more so if it was at night.maybe it is all dual carriageway now? it wasn't then. It didn't get any better crossing over to the Asian side.Some of the drivers seem to believe that Allah will protect them. therefor no sense of self preservation! Believe or not,I have seen drivers cross to the wrong side of a dual carriageway in Istanbul,and drive against the traffic flow because it was too far to the next intersection!!! I remember being overtaken by a truck on a narrow section of road,I was over to my right as far as possible,without going over the edge(quite a drop!) he was so close he hit my left hand mirrors and knocked them around into the w/screen. A few miles down the road,there he was, had got pulled by the Police,they take no prisoners! I had a cheer to myself.
p.s Hi to Ellie,nice to see you back.
Regards,K.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by SwissXC90

Belgium and north Holland are not Europe

Just like Wales is not Great Britain

You need to increase your sample size before you can reach a conclusion....

But Belgium and North Holland are a part of Europe, 'SwissXC90', and as such 'Laney760's observations are valid if taken in that context.

When making sweeping generalisations, it is easy to forget that we in the UK are - at present - just as much a part of 'Europe' - just not of mainland Europe. There are also those who do not immediately think of the Scandinavian nations as a part of Europe, which, of course, they are.

My own view when driving in 'Europe' is that driving standards vary greatly by country. Germans tend to have better lane discipline, Italians seldom signal their intentions, the French are less polite than at home, the Swedes more so. But these are just my own perceptions (probably stereotypical !) - others may differ.

I think driving standards probably vary greatly within individual countries just as much as they seem to do in the UK - it's just as occasional visitors it may not be immediately obvious to us. But I know what 'Laney760' meant!

Regards, John.

[gatos]

It's all dual carriageway these days, all the way from the greek border to Istanbul now, so it is much easier than before. But yeah, I know what you mean about Istanbul. Lots of traffic and organised chaos. If you are local it's much easier to drive around. But if you are a foreigner driving there for the first time it can get quite hairy and scary

[1monkey600]

Most of my driving is done in Belgium and I must say that the one thing many Belgians do not understand is lane discipline at roundabouts. Very rare to see someone indicating to turn left (ie going around the roundabout) and worst thing is that the vast majority will remain in the right hand lane even if they are going left). They will do this even if there are two lanes entering the roundabout and, worse still, if there are two lanes exiting the roundabout straight ahead.
In other words, even if you are in the 'fast lane' and planning to go straight ahead while staying in the fast lane, you have to watch out that the car entering the roundabout alongside you isn't intending to go left.
Their highway code states the same as ours, ie, 'if going around the roundabout stick to inside lane until you approach your exit', but they are taught 'if in doubt, or just don't understand how this works, just go round the roundabout in the outside lane'.
One thing to be very careful about in Belgium, even towns and villages (and Brussels), is that many junctions are 'right priority' even if it is a side road approaching a 'main road'. A vehicle can appear in front of you at any time and you will be at fault (and these roads don't have to be individually sign posted it could be posted at the edge of town that all roads within are 'right priority').
Another thing that is difficult to handle, certainly as a Brit, is the consequence of them having very good lane discipline on motorways ie not hogging the middle lane - many Belgians will pull in less than a car length in front of you after passing in an outer lane just to get out of that lane ASAP.
Tailgating is quite common here but they don't mind putting themselves in front either - common joke is that they have evolved as good drivers because the bad ones have all been killed off and taken the bad driving genes with them.

[Laney760]

Originally Posted by 1monkey600

Another thing that is difficult to handle, certainly as a Brit, is the consequence of them having very good lane discipline on motorways ie not hogging the middle lane - many Belgians will pull in less than a car length in front of you after passing in an outer lane just to get out of that lane ASAP.
Tailgating is quite common here but they don't mind putting themselves in front either - common joke is that they have evolved as good drivers because the bad ones have all been killed off and taken the bad driving genes with them.

^^^^ This is exactly what I saw a lot of at high speeds on treacherous roads with black ice and I was not surprised seeing four bad accidents shortly after this, the braking distances they allowed were not enough for dry summer roads let alone the conditions at the time.

[I-S]

I'm very surprised that you found the US to have high standards of driving. I tend to find (and I'm there on business regularly, as well as leisure - my husband is american so we visit there regularly) that US driving is generally of a poorer standard. Mostly american driving isn't aggressive, although when road rage does occur it seems to escalate much more quickly and severely than in the UK. However, the big issue in the USA seems to be lack of attention - there's far more cellphone usage, driving when very tired, etc, and there's a general lack of blind-spot checks and spatial awareness. Partly this comes about because there's so much more space for everyone that generally you get away with these things more. Certain US constructs, like the 4-way stop, give rise a an in-built sense of patience in many US drivers, but they are utterly clueless when it comes to a (increasingly common) roundabout.

As for European driving, our experience was interesting.

Dutch - mostly fine, quite chilled.
German - Much more aggressive, and you MUST follow the rules. Speed is king, and many Germans treat the unrestricted autobahn in the same way the second amendment is treated in parts of the USA - the meaning of life.
Belgium - zero spatial awareness nor any consideration that 3 cars can not occupy the same space.

[chrisfr]

It depends where you live as to how they drive. I used to live in the south of france and the drivers were total ejits. They would be processions of tailgating french no more than a meter behind the car infront on the way to work. People would frequently overtake on blind corners. A lot of the roads have sheer drops and it does not deter them. My wife and i were jogging on the beach one day on a track that was seperated A duel carriageway by some trees. Suddenly, a lady in a mercedes four by four came plowing over a garden center wall into the dual carriage way and gunned it across over to me and my wife. She hit the tree which did not deter her, and she gunned it again this time glancing a ramo and turning the car over. She was pi ssed as a newt and looked just like patsy out of ab fab with her fag in her hand. We just kept running and a couple of cars stopped to see if she was ok, which she was. The french just shrug and say " cest normal" which it is.
I now live in south west france, which is a lot different as there are a lot less cars. There are still idiots but most people are responsible. If it snows well then you can count the accidents for fun. People fly off roads into trees and ditches, thank heavens there are no sheer drops.
Why do you think i drive a volvo!

[The Thong]

Originally Posted by I-S

As for European driving, our experience was interesting.

Dutch - mostly fine, quite chilled.
Fighter pilots on the Motorways, masters at slotting their cars into a space between two moving vehicles with surgical precision

German - Much more aggressive, and you MUST follow the rules. Speed is king, and many Germans treat the unrestricted autobahn in the same way the second amendment is treated in parts of the USA - the meaning of life.

Loved the German Motorways, never had any issues.

Belgium - zero spatial awareness nor any consideration that 3 cars can not occupy the same space.

Agreed, it’s every man for himself in Brussels especially on the city ringway.

I found that in France, the further away from Paris you got the better the standard of driving got.

TT

[chrisfr]

When i lived in the south of france we used to travel from st tropez to ramatuelle where we lived, via a switch back road in the mountains. There was a frequent game of chicken.
This involved the french coming in the opposite direction drifting onto your side of the road usually towards horrified brits with english plates. They would move back over the line at the last minute which usually resulted in cardiac arrest or soiled underware for the brit at the least. As the side of the road involved a sheer 50m drop it was not for the faint of heart.
The counter measures took nerves of steel as you just had to hold your line and not move,
This of course did not work if the person was doing thier makeup( dont laugh but its quite common) whilst yapping on their phone and steering with their knee.
I usually crossed the line as well if i saw them coming towards me crossing the line, and then decisively moved back which seemed to trigger something deep in the other persons brain and they would move back over.
The brits usually stayed close to the curb which was a mistake as you have no where to go, much better to stay just on your side of the center line.
We had an encounter with an idiot on a four wheel bike. Here anyone can drive one without a licence on the road. He was weaving in and out of traffic and had a can of beer in one hand.
Another time i was walking into st tropez with my wife and i glanced behind only to see a car on the pavement heading towards us at around 70kph. I pushed my wife out of the way which saved her life, and the person driving the car stuck two fingers up at us. Charming.