Winter Wheels fitted

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by ergonomist

I'm curious, I Feel Old, as to what sort of data would satisfy you - I suspect it will never be available (but I find this thread interesting because of the challenge that presents).

ergonomist, over recent years I have watched with interest as swathes of drivers switch tyres in autumn and spring. I have become bemused as to why and their inability to explain why. I have been unable to establish sound reasoning, or indeed identify many people who have thought it through in the manner you have. Seeing film of winter tyres out perform summer tyres on ice rinks appears to have been all that was needed for most, with little consideration beyond what was presented.

My whole question about the benefit of winter tyres revolves around our temperate climate which can fluctuate significantly day to day. As I have said I do not believe it is, or ever can be, a black and white question. However, I had hoped there would possibly have been some data on tyre performance and weather patterns which would be of interest. For example simple statistics, by region, showing average, maximum and minimum number of days per winter when there is ice and snow on the road, say over a 10yr rolling period. And of course similar for wet days and for days above and below 7 degrees. I'd also have thought that tyre manufacturers could put estimated figures to tyre performance. For example at zero degrees a winter tyre will have double the grip on a dry road and at 10 degrees a summer tyre will have 10% more grip.

Originally Posted by ergonomist

Which leaves us with subjective data - and this 'debate'. My impression is that all of those posting here who fit winter tyres each year perceive a net benefit from such tyres. But I Feel Old would rightly dismiss that as skewed data - if you've invested approx £1k on winter tyres you may be biased towards perceiving benefit.

Of course it's human nature to tend towards defending one's decisions, even when they are known to be wrong. And when challenged the natural response is often deflection. All apparent in abundance in this thread.

Originally Posted by ergonomist

My perception is that this debate has moved away from 'are winter tyres better in snow etc' and more towards 'is there a net benefit during winter months in having winter tyres, in the UK'.

Indeed for me it has never been about the superior performance of winter tyres on snow, it has always been about the net benefits. Unfortunately that point has been continually shouted down and buried under unsubstantiated accusations.

Originally Posted by ergonomist

I tend to go onto winters in November and change back to summers around March. So a question becomes - will I encounter conditions during that period that put me at greater risk by being on winters? The answer must be 'Yes'. But the inverse also applies - will I encounter conditions that favour winter tyres? The answer to that also must be yes. Hence the critical question I would want to answer, in my discussions with I Feel Old, is the probabilistic one of whether the benefit of the many days when winter tyres are preferable during the Nov-March period outweighs the increased risk during the days when summer tyres might perform better. My (personal) view is that the net benefit is in favour of winter tyres - in very cold weather they are significantly better, and in mild winter conditions they are likely to be only a little worse, and there will be fewer days when that applies. Indeed, I Feel Old has made this sort of argument in another thread - Time at Risk being used to justify HUD rather than Heated Screen.

Thank you, ergonomist, for sharing the process of arriving at your decision. A process approached objectively which highlighted the pros and cons and where they lay whilst identifying there would be compromises whichever decision you made. And crucially that there were ultimately going to be conditions that required you to modify your driving.

I am completely open to your conclusion that on balance our climate generally favours winter tyres. Whether that is on average over a year, an average over a number of years… As I said in an earlier post I probably lean that way myself. However, as posters justify their choice and argue their points they tell stories of running winter tyres for x years and never having failed to get home, never having joined the party in the hedge etc. They mistakenly view these experiences as empirical evidence that there is only one choice of tyre from the nth of Nov - nnth of March, come what may. And oh, having made that choice these tyres are so good there's no need to modify one's driving. They fail to consider there may be other stories and experiences.

My own for example; I have never knowingly driven a vehicle on winter tyres, yet I have never been stranded and had to abandon a vehicle due to being on the wrong rubber, or even due to cars in front being on the wrong rubber. Indeed I have been to many parties, but never in a hedge.

So, the subjectivity remains and the significance of the net margin by which winter tyres are better remains illusive and inconclusive as to a quantifiable benefit.

What I am convinced of, though, is that the belief that winter tyres are better throughout a British winter, indeed every British winter, and the reasoning behind that view is verging on delusional.

Originally Posted by ergonomist

It is entertaining, though, seeing how the request for a compelling argument is causing so many furrowed brows. It encourages an interesting discipline...

Furrowed brows indeed, ergonomist.

[simonjedrake]

Must admit I am beginning to "Feel Old" reading this forum thread which appears to have a constantly circulating life of its own.............which at its current rate of readership may well last all Winter..........until those of us like myself replace our winter wheels with summer ones.
Must admit though it seems so unseasonably warm today with temperatures of 12C here in Shropshire that if this trend carries on then this thread will die of heat exhaustion sooner than latter....!!!

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by simonjedrake

Must admit I am beginning to "Feel Old" reading this forum thread which appears to have a constantly circulating life of its own.............which at its current rate of readership may well last all Winter..........until those of us like myself replace our winter wheels with summer ones.
Must admit though it seems so unseasonably warm today with temperatures of 12C here in Shropshire that if this trend carries on then this thread will die of heat exhaustion sooner than latter....!!!

Ah simon, just on cue, thanks for another example of deflection (by attack) kindly provided by a winter tyre convert. And one who ironically acknowledges the weather to be far from optimum for winter tyres.

One I hasten to add who also appears to lack the ability to avoid reading threads which make hime feel old.

Top Tip to staying young; don't read the thread.

[Lexman8]

For the love of god, please let this thread die before I lose the will to live.

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by I Feel Old

ergonomist, over recent years I have watched with interest as swathes of drivers switch tyres in autumn and spring. I have become bemused as to why and their inability to explain why. I have been unable to establish sound reasoning, or indeed identify many people who have thought it through in the manner you have. Seeing film of winter tyres out perform summer tyres on ice rinks appears to have been all that was needed for most, with little consideration beyond what was presented.

My whole question about the benefit of winter tyres revolves around our temperate climate which can fluctuate significantly day to day. As I have said I do not believe it is, or ever can be, a black and white question. However, I had hoped there would possibly have been some data on tyre performance and weather patterns which would be of interest. For example simple statistics, by region, showing average, maximum and minimum number of days per winter when there is ice and snow on the road, say over a 10yr rolling period. And of course similar for wet days and for days above and below 7 degrees. I'd also have thought that tyre manufacturers could put estimated figures to tyre performance. For example at zero degrees a winter tyre will have double the grip on a dry road and at 10 degrees a summer tyre will have 10% more grip.


Of course it's human nature to tend towards defending one's decisions, even when they are known to be wrong. And when challenged the natural response is often deflection. All apparent in abundance in this thread.


Indeed for me it has never been about the superior performance of winter tyres on snow, it has always been about the net benefits. Unfortunately that point has been continually shouted down and buried under unsubstantiated accusations.



Thank you, ergonomist, for sharing the process of arriving at your decision. A process approached objectively which highlighted the pros and cons and where they lay whilst identifying there would be compromises whichever decision you made. And crucially that there were ultimately going to be conditions that required you to modify your driving.

I am completely open to your conclusion that on balance our climate generally favours winter tyres. Whether that is on average over a year, an average over a number of years… As I said in an earlier post I probably lean that way myself. However, as posters justify their choice and argue their points they tell stories of running winter tyres for x years and never having failed to get home, never having joined the party in the hedge etc. They mistakenly view these experiences as empirical evidence that there is only one choice of tyre from the nth of Nov - nnth of March, come what may. And oh, having made that choice these tyres are so good there's no need to modify one's driving. They fail to consider there may be other stories and experiences.

My own for example; I have never knowingly driven a vehicle on winter tyres, yet I have never been stranded and had to abandon a vehicle due to being on the wrong rubber, or even due to cars in front being on the wrong rubber. Indeed I have been to many parties, but never in a hedge.

So, the subjectivity remains and the significance of the net margin by which winter tyres are better remains illusive and inconclusive as to a quantifiable benefit.

What I am convinced of, though, is that the belief that winter tyres are better throughout a British winter, indeed every British winter, and the reasoning behind that view is verging on delusional.


Furrowed brows indeed, ergonomist.

Having read this it’s clear you are clueless.

Slushy low temperature icy or snow are like night and day between winter and summer tyres.

My question is how good all seasons are and I will answer that once my cross climates are fitted.

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

Slushy low temperature icy or snow are like night and day between winter and summer tyres.

Really, is that the best response you can come up with to demonstrate how clueless I am? And you honestly believe that goes some way to convincing me of my cluelessness? You have clearly failed to consider what I have written and consequently failed to see how far off the mark you are with your response. You carry on blindly following the sheep, it is unlikely your inability to consider the whole picture will have an impact on my life.

Originally Posted by Lexman8

For the love of god, please let this thread die before I lose the will to live.

What a terrible attitude!

ergonomist addressed me in his post, I consider it polite to respond. Please explain why you think it proper to dictate what threads people contribute to based on your desires?

What I do where threads don't interest me is leave the folks alone and take myself off elsewhere.

I suggest in the interest of the longevity of your life you avoid visiting this thread.

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by I Feel Old

Really, is that the best response you can come up with to demonstrate how clueless I am? And you honestly believe that goes some way to convincing me of my cluelessness? You have clearly failed to consider what I have written and consequently failed to see how far off the mark you are with your response. You carry on blindly following the sheep, it is unlikely your inability to consider the whole picture will have an impact on my life.


What a terrible attitude!

ergonomist addressed me in his post, I consider it polite to respond. Please explain why you think it proper to dictate what threads people contribute to based on your desires?

What I do where threads don't interest me is leave the folks alone and take myself off elsewhere.

I suggest in the interest of the longevity of your life you avoid visiting this thread.

I am reminded of a quote something along the lines of never argue with an idiot as they will on experience.

[Inigo96]

At the risk of adding further noise to this thread, I'd like to add my anecdotal evidence.
I had a new Jaguar XF delivered in September 2010 (I think) and immediately ordered some Winter tyres as I usually derive to the alps at least once a year and believe that the increased low temperature performance is worth it, on balance, for me in the South East.
We had lots of snow that winter and my winter tyres had not yet turned up, I arrived at the office and no-one else had bothered to turn up. Zero grip in 4 inches of untouched fresh snow. It took me 3 1/2 hours of digging and pushing to get me back out. Regardless of the position of any switches or the accelerator pedal, one rear wheel would just rotate slowly without moving the car at all. When my winter tyres finally arrived the following week, I could drive happily in fresh snow.
Lots of snow only happens where I live about once every 5 to 10 years, but I'd rather have the extra grip available just in case. When it does happen, I'd like to still be able to get home ( a colleague was trapped overnight on the M11 a few years back and I don't wish to be caught in the same situation).

[MaDProFF]

I know people comment on stopping distance on winter tyres in warmer weather, personally I have never found it problem, and that it is different on day to day driving on our roads that are not perfectly even and flat, like test tracks.

So here is the ?

When was the last time you had to make an emergency stop? that you are trying to stop as fast as possible abs and all?

Count the times you recall having to make an emergency stop? over a period of time.

For me it is like once in years that I can recall in a car, and I am doing around 25 /30k a year now, and twice on a bike in 8 yrs, I remember them more on a bike lol.

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

I am reminded of a quote something along the lines of never argue with an idiot as they will on experience.

Thanks for the heads up XC90Mk1, to attack me in your previous post as clueless and having absolutely nothing to offer in support of it, other than a statement I agree with (quoted below), did have me baffled and questioning your intellect.

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

Slushy low temperature icy or snow are like night and day between winter and summer tyres

Thanks indeed for confirming I was thinking along the correct lines. I'll take your advice and refrain from arguing with those limited to personal attacks and who are clearly incapable of offering anything of substance and meaning to the discussion. I'll instead converse only with those capable of making reasonable and logical argument. That of courses renders you out.