360 Brakes & Clutch

[foggyjames]

Hi all,

I've long moaned about the 360 brakes being pants (fine if you're going up hill, or you have time to change down a gear or two, but no bite 'in gear', or downhill - hopeless if both! I need to tow with this car!), but now I have a new moan.

Just while I'm here - how easy are the brake swaps? I'm going for a 440 turbo set-up (vented) on the front, as I figure this will be the closest match, but is it a direct swap? Trouble is *power* as much as cooling - hence I'm not sure the 440 upgrade will help.

How easy are the other swaps - I believe Kev S has BMW 3-series brakes, and Mark H had Cosworth and now has VW Corrado brakes. How easy were these swaps, if youre listening guys, and how much were the bits?

Anyway....back to the point...CLUTCH! Its cerrrrap!
Ours has always juddered once 'warm' (continual stop-start climb - eg: motorway congestion on a hill), but recently its been really bad. Felt like it was gonna break the gearbox in London last week.

Basically, under a heavy load (in the London case, myself and three adult passengers + luggage), after about 10 minutes of heavy usage, it seems to get hot, and start juddering at the point of maximum stress on the clutch - ie just after its started moving, and as you start to accellerate. It doesnt shake at first - only in the middle of the pedal travel. Adding revs helps the smoothness, but makes the heating worse long-term. Garage man says the pressure plate is slightly worn (was my diagnosis too).

So whats the news here? Is the clutch just two small (I noticed the clutch in the new cobra (dont ask....just so happened to notice) is about twice the size - and therefore many times the surface area! OK we're talking about 350+ BHP and a heavier car....but only heavier by about 300kg, and I wanna put a turbo motor in this thing ~200bhp!

Do I just need a new clutch? Can I fit a 740 clutch, or is it too big for the 360 bell housing? Can you mate the 740 bellhousing to the torque tube on the 360?

I'm a bit concerned that this clutch is eating itself, and to be fair, I'm really not asking that much - its not a performance car, and I'm well off the weight loading limit for it! Bearing in mind that I may wish to address both those points (turbo motor, and using it for towing), I don't have much confidence!

Any ideas / thoughts / advice very much appriciated!

Oh...and got wasted off the line by a new 2.0 mondeo the other day. Not happy! To be fair, I wasn't trying that hard (launched at 1200rpm, not 3000, as you need to in order to storm away), and I had 3 more people on board, and probably 30-odd less BHP! I have the flatter torque and power curves though, I bet!

cheers

James

[Peter Milnes]

This sort of behaviour from a clutch is usually indicative of either oil getting onto the clutch linings and pressure plate face or the gearbox mounting giving up the ghost. I don't think that 360s have a centre propshaft bearing whiuch could also be a source of vibration. Driven plates have been known to break one or more of the springs which are supposed to absorb judder. Providing the clutch is the correct one for your car there should be no problem with it apart from one of the above. I have known faulty rear shockers and loose bushings at the rear to have a similar effect.

All the best, Peter

[foggyjames]

Hi Peter,

I've heard stories of 360s giving grief with clutches before - leading me to suspect that, like the brakes, they are simply too small for the weight and power of the vehicle.

I did wonder about the springs - it was as if there was insufficient pressure to really clamp the plates shut, and they were jumping apart - but this only happens when 'hot'?!

The mechanic (Volvo specialist) took a look at it, and said he couldn't do anything about it "They all do that".

I'm going on a nice long journey with a heavy load, so I'll report back on how I get on....sadly I fear there will be insufficient slow driving to bring on the juddering....but the way it's been of late...!

Thanks for the advice!

James

Hi

The clutch on my 360GLE (F reg) is terrible and has been for the last 50K miles. When I bought it I was given bills showing a new clutch just fitted. The clutch is fine if the car has not been used for a few days. It's then OK for about 30 miles and then it starts to judder very badly, just as you describe. From then on it's bad unless not used for a few days so it's not that the clutch is hot. The garage man things the clutch may have a broken spring, but I think it's more likely to be oil getting on the clutch, hence the delay in manifesting the problem from unuse (gives time for the oil to drain away etc?). Anyway, to do the clutch on the 360 is a big job, removing the torque tube and final drive first so I live with it. It's great on the open road, just hates traffic jams (a bit like me)etc. It does not seem to have got any worse over the last 50K miles. We have two other 360 GLEs (both F reg) and they both have a VERY SLIGHT manifestation of this problem too so maybe it is a 360GLE weakness. We had a 360 GLS before which did 200K miles and no clutch problem on that.

The brakes on all our 360s are brilliant so long as the servo is working!

Jon

[srtames]

I wonder if your rear engine rubber mounts are too soft or loose ? Sideways movement at the rear of the engine could cause misalignment with the prop shaft here.

Good luck , steve

[foggyjames]

Thanks guys. The brakes aren't bad *as such*....but compared to a more modern car (the difference compared with Dads 940 is huge) with ABS, they are pathetic. They also tend to overheat & fade with prolonged heavy use. Compare them to a similar sized car of the time (Sierra, Cavailier, etc), and the competitor all have disks all round, with vented front disks, and on the sportier models, multi-piston calipers, etc - just seems like under-engineering to me.

I'm certain its the clutch itself thats the problem. Oil certainly did occur to me. Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours Jon, as it only really manifests itself under heavy load in prolonged urban driving - and I'm not exactly known for being kind to the clutch! Having said that, there's no excuses for whats happening to it.

A GLS would be a B19, right? Maybe there is a design flaw somewhere with the B200? Anyone know of any problems with an injection model? Mine is carb, and I'm guessing your GLE is too Jon. Are the clutches the same, from B19 to B200?

cheers

James

Hi

I have volvo360 gl c reg 106500 miles and have not had problem with clutch judder,and the brakes are great infact if i brake too heavy the old girl gives a little wiggle especially in the wet,which make for fun braking in the wet.

Hope you sort your problem out

[pettaw]

I too had this problem with the clutch, try to start off as smoothly as possible and you get SO much judder and clonking it was unbelievable. Also it used to not release properly first thing in the morning, meaning that reverse was a chore to get into. Also the release point was right at the top of the travel, despite there being loads of slack in the pedal.

I took all the stuff apart, as you know I'm sure clutches are not the easiest thing on a 360, but the g/box had to come out anyway so...

Cutting a long story, the pressure plate looked knackered, as though it was the original equipment on a 86 car, but the friction plate had loads of depth. Then I noticed IT WASN'T A VOLVO CLUTCH PLATE! The garage that had last changed the clutch had not changed the pressure plate and to boot had not put an original Volvo clutch in it.

1x original Volvo kit, plus gentle greasing of the clutch splines etc, and one perfect functioning clutch that bites properly and firmly, doesn't judder no matter how badly you treat it etc etc.

Also, I bet the brake pads are non original equipment, if they're not working properly. Also if you get fade change the brake fluid. Possibly the disks are worn as well, once they get to a certain amount of wornness they get not so good.

I agree with a previous poster, never had a problem with brakes on 300 series. They are always very firm and sharp, provided you stay with good quality pads/disks/fluid and the servo is operating properly.

Andy

[foggyjames]

The brakes are certainly a bit strange....very punchy when braking from high speed (ie: 80 to 40), but lack serious bite from 40 downwards(?!)
We did indeed change the fluid - roughly a year ago - and that sorted the fading out.

Hmm...will keep an eye on the clutch - wasn't too bad on the most recent journey. Non-oem parts did occur to me....hmm! Do we think the standard clutch can take the extra power from a B230ET? I think I might get a new pressure plate before then!!

cheers

James

There is nothing wrong with the design of the 360 clutch, brakes or oil seals. Like any car these will suffer with age and lack of maintenance, and occasionally need replaced. Part of the reason people find these problems on 360s is because they last so long and are quite fault tolerant. Comparing them to a any Vauxhall or Ford (even modern ones) is just a joke, try comparing them when they are the same age. If anything the car is over engineered. Although brakes in any car must in top condition if your are going to thrash the car over hilly countryside (believe me I know).

The car does not need disk brakes at the back, the drum are perfectly adequate. Even modern cars don't need them, I really doubt any of them get anywhere get close to overheating, and are probably more of a sales gimic, although disks are a little more reliable with the lack of adjusting mechanisms. Its the front wheels that do most of the braking, the rears are usually attenuated by a pressure reducing valve.
My 940 is huge and heavy and designed for carrying big loads but has punny rear disks which don't wear much.

Things to check:
New brake fluid? old stuff causes brake fade
Good vacuum hose? Engine end get heat damaged after 10 years or so.
Good flexible hose?
Good disks and pads (use OE pads only)? Worn disks can also accelerate brake fade.
Good rear brakes, adjusters, leaking clinders?
Good servo?
Good master cylinder.
Caliper sticking?
Good pressure reducing valve?

Clutches
Front oil seal leaks are common after 10 years, so I guess rear ones can happen to.
Old clutches will have rusted springs and do seem to get stiff over the years, often its just the clutch cable.
Juddering can be caused by bad alignment, but I think 360s are fairly self centering. Oil contamination or just wear is the most likey.

Anyway don't be afraid to take of the drive shaft its not that difficult, but does take a while.

360 GLTs where great little sports cars from the 80s, and many are still going, unlike the comparable front drive XR3i from the same period. I drove brand new 360s occassionally and they were better than any modern car I have driven, including my partners 97 323i which has bump steer at the back and a number of reliability problems (although the limited slip ABS traction control, and self dimming rear view mirror are pretty cool).

The only major design problems 360s have in fact is the rear axle which gets bent from thrashing. This and the other few minor design problems can be fixed. If you can bring a 360 back to original spec it is still a very good car.