Problem with LPG conversion from Classicswede, advice please

[SonyVaio]

Originally Posted by Bristol603

Dai fitted LPG to my Amazon last year. When I got the car back home to Hampshire I took it to my local garage for them to check over. I have known the mechanic (he is also an MoT tester) there for many years. He used to fit LPG conversions himself a few years ago. He checked over the install Dai had done and was of the view it was a good quality job and did not need any changes. The car has run well since and the install paid for itself in less than 12 months. My insurance company were quite happy to cover the car at no extra premium.

Bristol603,

Dai has done some fantastic jobs in the past and he has many glowing reports on this forum about his work. Unfortunately he has done a few pretty bad installs too though.

It is like any industry where it takes a long long time to get real established regulation in place. The LPG industry in real terms is still in early days and evolving but in todays day and age where we are (rightfully or wrongfully) so H & S conscious and not forgetting the fact that LPG is pretty dangerous stuff?

We have seen it with other industries like bouncers (Door Men/Women) who once upon a time used to be the biggest thugs going but has now evolved into being very good, skilled, trained, regulated industry. Another example is private clampers and car parks, these used be the a haven for complete thugs and criminals but eventually evolved (better late than never) into slightly better industry. Okay the clampers didn't get any better so were eventually regulated out of a job!

You take other appliances that use gas and you need to be a qualified Corgi Registered technician to even open the front cover before you can work on it. Your not even meant plug a gas cooker into the wall these days unless your qualified. Yet when it comes to gas on vehicles we let any old man and his dog with no qualifications install LPG into cars/vehicles?? There is something wrong here would you not say?

I suspect the LPG industry will continue to evolve and the day will come when you can only touch or install LPG if you are truly qualified and in date for said qualification. Unfortunately this is probably still a long way off.

More and more insurance companies in the UK are insisting that any car they cover for LPG has to be on the UKLPG register. If you're not on the register then they will tell you they will not insure you. This should be mandatory as far as I'm concerned. Just like with normal gas appliances and the need to be Corgi registered the world of LPG should in my opinion be the same and only a qualified LPG engineer be able to conduct installs.

I know this is an 'ideal' and a long way off but it would stop a lot of problems that DO occur with less than standard installations that puts peoples lives at risk. It does happen - LINKY!

There is nothing stopping Dai in being a proper registered installer, then able to do installs and have his customers entered on to the UKLPG database and thus providing his customers with proper certification and backup from a governing body too. You pays your money you takes your chance as they say?

Bristol603, when you had your install done did Dai explain to you that he was not a UKLPG registered installer and that your car wouldn't be entered on to the database?? Did he tell you that the Certificates he was giving out and signing was quoting a Code of Practice that ceased 4 years earlier and as such were not worth the paper they were written on? He might have done but I suspect not, I suspect he told you nothing more than how wonderful his systems are and how happy his customers have been then proceeded to take your money without as much of an obligatory comment on how much your NOT covered in the way of Certification.

Just popped in my head but the Travel industry too were in a right state a while back but due to regulation they are so much better now and people actually covered for their Holidays by the governing body (ATOL) for anything that goes wrong or dodgy doings by the seller.

[SonyVaio]

Originally Posted by classicswede

Once again start your own thread and keep this one on topic. Perhaps a mod would be kind enough to break this off for you?

It is funny how it is ONLY YOU that finds this to off topic??? Don't like the heat then stay out of the kitchen as they say?

Not because of you Dai but just because I want to, I will 100% not be contributing to this thread any further. A smell of gas and a small explosion that has blown off the bellows is enough for anyone to know the install is not as it should be and I would say not fit for purpose. As above really a BOMB waiting to happen. It is this sort of thing that inspires me to contribute to threads such as this, it would be a real tragedy if someone were to actually be hurt.

[classicswede]

Looks like all the mods have gone to sleep today.


I will answer your question here.

I am a fully registered LPG installer. I have no intension of joining the corrupt LPGA/UKLPG for a number of reasons where I disagree with how they have operated and allowed some very shoddy installers get away with some lethal stuff. Things have changed for the better now with them and have put measures in place to try and control standards. Every now and then I do toy with the idea of paying the fee to become a member of the "club". That is all that they are and have no power at all. UK LPG installations are not regulated at all.

For me I prefer to have an independent inspection for registration to the database (note no certificate any longer for LPGA/UKLPG)

You really struggle to understand that the LPGA and UKLPG are exactly the same thing just rebranded. The COP has not changed and all installations should meet COP11

The French operate a different much more strict system where every component has to recorded and homologation papers provided. Once all the paperwork is in place the installation has to pass inspection.

I would rather see each and every LPG conversion inspected in a similar way to kit cars etc with the SVA (now updated and name changed). It would be the best solution in my opinion.

This has all been discussed many many times before on the Various forums and I'm sure a google search would have provided your answer.

Your still not sure what my certificate is?

My certificate is an engineers certificate confirming that the installation is installed to compliance with the LPGA/UKLPG code of practice COP11 the one that relates to automotive installations. I can only provided a certificate for the systems that I am trained to install such as AFC, KME, BRC, OMVL, Europegas Bigas etc. I can not issue one for systems I am not trained on such as AG or LPGTech

SonyViao I do find it interesting that the only times you have ever posted in the LPG section of this forum is to comment in threads discussing my installations! Would you min removing some of the BS from your posts.

Thantos,

Fuel and air mixed together is explosive, that is how an engine runs. Just like a carb engine (the B21E is the same engine as the carb B21A) will have a manifold full of air and fuel. Ignite it and it will go bang. When it does happen on one of these engines the norm is just to blow the idle pipes off that be easily pushed back on. The pop off valves just do not work and more often than not when used will cause the car to become undrivable. The worst case is what has happened here and damaged the air flow meter, it is a risk on any conversion to a engine with a mechanical air flow meter. And yes mixers are manufacture approved for use on mechanical air flow metered engines. The customer was warned that is can/does happen as with any other mixer system.
Why did it happen, if you read the original post the backfire occoured changing fuels as the LPG ran out. Since it has been running on LPG only there has not been another backfire so that does suggest the ignition system and LPG system are both working correctly in that sense.

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by SonyVaio

It is funny how it is ONLY YOU that finds this to off topic??? Don't like the heat then stay out of the kitchen as they say?

Not because of you Dai but just because I want to, I will 100% not be contributing to this thread any further. A smell of gas and a small explosion that has blown off the bellows is enough for anyone to know the install is not as it should be and I would say not fit for purpose. As above really a BOMB waiting to happen. It is this sort of thing that inspires me to contribute to threads such as this, it would be a real tragedy if someone were to actually be hurt.

Would you like to start a poll on it?

You have started threads in other sections before so should not have been difficult for you to do so to ask your own questions that drifted off the original topic but still in the correct section.

And like I said I am more than happy to answer your question legitimate or not.

[SonyVaio]

Originally Posted by classicswede

SonyViao I do find it interesting that the only times you have ever posted in the LPG section of this forum is to comment in threads discussing my installations! Would you min removing some of the BS from your posts.

Well that was a very short hibernation from this thread from me but I thought it only fair I reply to Dai after he has obviously spent a bit of time on his reply.

I will be the first to admit that I have almost ZERO experience of LPG, it is not something that generally interests me and as such I don't contribute to 99.9% of LPG threads. I know almost nothing of actual LPG installations, equipment, regulations or types of systems used for LPG either but this overall doesn't stop me from knowing and seeing when something is completely wrong.

I will say thank you for your constructive reply, it is the sort of reply that is warranted and provides information. You are light years ahead of me in knowledge of LPG and by the sounds of it the French are light years ahead of the UK in terms of LPG regulation?

I will clarify that I have not actually said you were not a qualified LPG installer at all (as far as I can recall) but only that you were not a UKLPG registered installer? Unfortunately as lame as you may find them the UKLPG have got themselves into the position of being the defacto standard for LPG installs. At the end of the day it can only help the industry as a whole if everyone sings off the same song sheet? You yourself admit that you even run by the COP 11 code of practice which is the UKLPG COP 11 code of practice is it not?

If you already abide by the COP 11 then why not go the extra step whether you agree with them completely or not and become a UKLPG approved installer? This would surely gain you far more customers?

Now like I've also said in a previous post I know you have done some great work in the past, you have many happy customers and many glowing reports.

I do realise there is no Certificate issued anymore for UKLPG and that it is just a straight entry on to the database which is the proof of certification. Your certificates, even though you yourself run by and install by COP 11, you don't really provide any real form of certification that has any meaning? The defacto certification is the entry on to the database is it not, and why wouldn't you want to have your own ability for your customers to be entered straight on to the database?

I get the fact that you can have your work independently tested later and still effectively obtain entry on to the DB but isn't that a little bit of a cop out? This just means that someone else has to assume responsibility for your installs and put their name to your installs to have any of your work to be entered on the DB?

Thank you for your explanation to what a MY certificate is too. Of course I knew what you meant in the terms of MY Certificate in the fact it alluded to a certificate produced by you to say you had done the install. I still don't get why you 'name drop' a code of practice to whom your not even a member of on to your certificates. I understand you do your installations within the law of the land and abide by the recommendations of the code of practice which is UKLPG COP 11. Your certificates are set out and implies to the reader of them that the install is UKLPG COP 11 certified and with a UKLPG certification number. This is what I find misleading about your Certificates and not necessarily the fact that you produce your own ones.

With the defacto standard now no longer issuing certificates at all do you not think you should also stop issuing certificates? I would say the best business sense would to be to do one of the following:

1. Have ALL your installs inspected no matter what so the customer does get the tick in the box and inserted on the UKLPG Vehicle register.

2. Get UKLPG Certified so you can insert your customers on the UKLPG Vehicle Register yourself and assume full responsibility and accreditation for your own work.

All the best,

[mollusk]

I have no intention of either attacking or defending Dai (I know the guy and personally have no problems with him) but I will inject a little of my version of "balance".

I don't believe for one moment that Dai sets out to "do a bad job" or indeed to con people (at least, I've known him for a number of years and have seen no evidence of such) he is very active on the 300 scene and has, and continues to do, good work there.
Certainly something is going wrong with at least some of his LPG conversions but not necessarily dangerous work (I have seen far worse jobs by so called certificated and registered installers).

What I do believe Dai has been guilty of, certainly in the past, is "hiding his head I the sand" faced in the past with what has amounted to a witch hunt (I will not comment on justification) he has done what many would do when presented with a concerted attack by those more eloquent than he (or those perhaps suffering an "American Lawyer" complex) he has run and hidden, hoping they would go away. Certainly attacks have been relentless.
Problems happen, mistakes are made by the very best, but the remedy must always be to face them, deal with them and learn by them. Evidence suggests that Dai has not been terribly good at that on occasions! But I do not believe this should make him a pariah deserved of constant denigration at any excuse.

I have now probably upset both sides. To those "guilty" of attacks, I apologise, but I feel some of you take rather too much pleasure in Dai's discomfort and Dai, I apologise to you (but you have to admit you've never been the best at defending yourself.)

On a final note, one thing I can claim expertise in is the Kjet system, Dai, if you are expecting the customer to fit a replacement metering plate please, please, stress the importance of correct centralisation and precise height alignment within the metering body venturi. If this is not done it will never start or run on petrol!

Mollusk.
.

[SonyVaio]

Originally Posted by classicswede

Not being funny but have you not read the thread? The car is Irish registered and can not be entered onto the UK register as it is not registered in the UK!

Dai,

I have done a little research in to this point and I can conclude that you CAN indeed have a Southern Ireland vehicle registered on the UKLPG Vehicle Register.

[classicswede]

I have also done a bit of digging I you can register a car from any country but has to be done by the VIN.


As standard practice for a fair while now I have been putting all new conversion on the register. I have a couple of local customers who do not want them putting on the register for there own reasons.

In the case of the conversion being discussed in this thread I did ask both before and at the time of conversion what the owner wanted to being an Irish car. Not registered and no need for any certificate. The option is still open to have the car registered over here.

I still issue my engineers certificate as some insurers want to see a certificate and do not recognise the data base run by UKLPG, I can also help when selling the car. Most buyers would feel more confident buying a car with a certificate.

It makes so much more sense for me to both have the conversions registered on the UKLPG database and issue my own cert to avoid any problems for the owner with insurance in the future. There are some installers charging between £1-200 for entering a car onto the database and that is without making any changes. Paying out that kind of money would be a real blow not long after having the conversion done. There are plenty of installers who only charge around £50 but it does depend in what area you are.

Keeping on topic of the car in question I have been in contact with Rob almost everyday but have heard nothing from him since Wednesday

[Joe Harding]

Originally Posted by SonyVaio

Bristol603,

You take other appliances that use gas and you need to be a qualified Corgi Registered technician to even open the front cover before you can work on it. Your not even meant plug a gas cooker into the wall these days unless your qualified. Yet when it comes to gas on vehicles we let any old man and his dog with no qualifications install LPG into cars/vehicles?? There is something wrong here would you not say?

I suspect the LPG industry will continue to evolve and the day will come when you can only touch or install LPG if you are truly qualified and in date for said qualification. Unfortunately this is probably still a long way off.

More and more insurance companies in the UK are insisting that any car they cover for LPG has to be on the UKLPG register. If you're not on the register then they will tell you they will not insure you. This should be mandatory as far as I'm concerned. Just like with normal gas appliances and the need to be Corgi registered the world of LPG should in my opinion be the same and only a qualified LPG engineer be able to conduct installs.

I know this is an 'ideal' and a long way off but it would stop a lot of problems that DO occur with less than standard installations that puts peoples lives at risk. It does happen - LINKY!

Can I just interject? I remember the last government toying with the notion that no electrical socket should be installed by someone who hasn't got a formal qualification in household wiring. The intent is obvious; poor wiring leads to household fires.

But the practical outcome denies anyone with a degree in common sense doing any reasonable DIY. I wired my own house using my experience and with an eye on the regs at the time. (As indeed the heating system too). I would object strongly to having to employ a 'professional' to do something I can do as well, if not better, than the tradesman.

Yes, some evaluation of the competence of installations is important, but please, let's not suffocate British ingenuity, common-sense and can-do under a welter of rules.

[subaqua]

Originally Posted by Joe Harding

Can I just interject? I remember the last government toying with the notion that no electrical socket should be installed by someone who hasn't got a formal qualification in household wiring. The intent is obvious; poor wiring leads to household fires.

But the practical outcome denies anyone with a degree in common sense doing any reasonable DIY. I wired my own house using my experience and with an eye on the regs at the time. (As indeed the heating system too). I would object strongly to having to employ a 'professional' to do something I can do as well, if not better, than the tradesman.

Yes, some evaluation of the competence of installations is important, but please, let's not suffocate British ingenuity, common-sense and can-do under a welter of rules.

not true. there are specific "zones" for want of a better word. places where the risk of elctric shock is higher. Kitchens, Bathrooms, outdoors .

whilst I agree that part P is a tax on qualified Electricians( of which I am one)
I do agree that all electrical work of a major nature should be carried out by a qualified electrician who is a member of a insopecting authority. I work for a NICEIC registered company and am the qualified supervisor who signs off the installs. I have no problem opening the book to the inspecting engineer weeks before his visit so he can choose what to look at rather than selectivley choosing what to show him

Sadly people are NOT notifying and I still see some downright dangerous installs in Kitchens done by the "part P " electrician employed by the kitchen fitting company.

when you see the effect of a death caused by a DIY install where the homeowner knew better then you start to see why it is important to be qualified and audited.


how does this relate to the original issues in the post.

1) why does Dai not want to be a member of one of the UK authorities-
If he has vast experience why not join to pass on that experience, you can't change something from the outside looking in . you need to be on the inside to start change.

2) why Quote the rules of an organisation/authority you don't agree with

3) anybody can have 1 or 2 bad jobs, but if you value your reputation then you get the problem sorted at your cost then deal with the financial later, unless you have something to hide.

the small claims courts are a great recourse and work well IMO.


I started my apprenticeship with a N Wales company who didn't want to join a trade association such as the NICEIC or the ECA . a jobs for the boys club i was told it was. when i left as he folded the company on a friday for the nth time to restart on a monday and joined a NICEIC company i realised the reasons why he diudn't want to join. He was as rough as a bears bum and not doing things quite right. took me a few months to get out of some bad habits- stood me in good stead though as I can spot those dodgy installers far more easily now.