Is congestion deliberate?

[sheerwater]

Hi again,
Another point for debate.
Is road congestion a deliberate policy by those in power. I give several examples. Recently a 5 mile stretch of dual carriageway leading to the M1 was down to single track because street lights were being cleaned. I say being cleaned because in fact no work was being carried out as the workers sat in the lorry drinking tea while the jam built up to 10 miles long. Health and safety is one thing but in Europe work like this is done with a lorry with a flashing keep right sign (left would be for the UK).
Are UK drivers so irresponsible that this would not work?? (yes I have seen the plonkers still in the outside lane trying to push in just before roadworks) I dont envy the police working on accidents etc. but watching a suicide on a railway line on TV showed that the authorities had two hours to get the system active again. In Northampton a major artery was closed for 5 hours and more because somebody was found dying beside the road in the early hours of the morning. I have witnessed accidents abroad where the big arrow system is sheilding a serious accident allowing traffic to flow on the inside lane and hard shoulder. You are made aware of a problem ahead by warnings well before the blockage so you can adjust your position. How many times have you been on a UK motorway only to see 50,40 or other limits being set for something that does not exist?? Open for debate. Cheers Nige

I like the M25 displays showing 50 mph limits due to fog on bright Sunday mornings. I know the feeling Nige but in the conspiracy or ****-up debate, I'm a ****-up guy.

In February, I drove Folkestone-Reading-Baslindon-Halifax-Derby-Folkestone in 24 hours and I encountered eight traffic jams and every single one of them, and I mean every single one, were caused by one car accidents. On the M1, for example, I could see before my own eyes on the opposite part of the motorway how a woman in a minivan had her tyre blow up in the fast lane and she carrered into the centre barrier. I saw this happen and I also saw the build-up of traffic. Later on, one car crashed in the Dartford tunnel and they closed of the whole tunnel, I saw the build up off traffic going into the tunnel stuck in traffic going across the bridge stuck in another jam due to a driver losing control of his car and slamming it into the barrier. These are freak accidents, sometimes caused by bad drivers or bad cars but often things that could happen to any one of us. The problem is that there is so much traffic on British motorways that one little accident, one little disruption to the flow and bang, you have a major standstill. You see this in Germany too but there I blame their love of two lane (or four lane if you prefer) motorways.

[migrator]

Hi Nige,

I am in favour of the "rolling road works" vehicles with the high density flashing lights. I have seen them working well on the continent.

As for the speed limits where ther is no actual work being done (not to mention the coned off areas where there is no work being done) how often have you noticed a general back off of speed in those areas whether or not there are works in progress?

[markas]

Hi all,

Well from a European prospective I had lived in all of Germany, Holland and worked in Switzerland. I agree with George's comments but some of the German’s problems are they drive too fast. I remember driving home one day from Hamburg to the Swiss border 530miles and just into the hilly area and the motorway was closed for two hours. I pasted the accident and the rear panel was all that was left of a Mark 2 Golf, I recognised the light quarters.

To our problem we suffer to many swan Neckers and people driving in appropiately to the road conditions doing 90 in the rain or sitting in the bloody middle land when lane 1 is empty.

I worked in the Highways dept for a while and see road building in a different light now. I personally like the M25 speed system around Heathrow I think it flows much better when I’m down there, instead of these stop and starts.

As for more off ramps, if you are going to get idiots come off lane 3 with 200 yards to go and cut everybody else up in his flash company motor or BMW, these are the people we should target for schooling to prevent accidents.

Coming from Birmingham/Dudley they are building that Major Tool road what a mess its making of the landscape, as people going to pay a £5 to miss all the congestion thought the black country?

An idea I really like are the multiple occupancy lanes the Yanks have they are great especially at rush hours, I drove central LA by mistake once at 5pm.

Our other big problems are lack of real investment into public transport like the Europeans and Beaching as a lot to answer for. A good grid system like the Germans have as already mentioned.

Just my thoughts,

Mark.

[cootuk]

I work shifts and avoid travelling (if I can) at 8am-9:30am/4-6pm so I don't see that much congestion.

I think the rolling road works vehicles are designed to stop a car travelling at 70mph if they hit the rear bumpers of the vehicle, but wouldn't stand a chance if a HGV hit them, and would be damaged by cars travelling faster. Safety would depend in which lane the vehicle is working, though for 'temporary' moving repairs you would imagine them to be more effective.
Cones do at least provide more of a safety zone for workers, but I bet cost comes into play....the adapted vehicles probably cost lots more than a van with a man chucking cones out of the back.

Even more horrendous is the idea to let cars use the hard shoulder...the article on TV was accompanied by CCTV of one suggested motorway stretch that showed....you guessed it...a car broken down on the hard shoulder. Brilliant idea.

[sheerwater]

Hi,
Some good points. I only suggested that the hard shoulder be used as a ane in an emergency to allow traffic around a crash / repair and only at that point. The Govt however seems to use the hard shoulder as often as possible when constructing roads and thats why there is free recovery. As for shifting accidents its funny how cities like Amsterdam can shift cars in seconds with a fork lift type vehicle if it is illegally parked. There is money in this of course. As for German speeds I thought I was doing well at 85-95 until a Smart car followed by a Citroen CV2 overtook me!!!!
Cheers Nige

[markas]

As for German speeds
>I thought I was doing well at 85-95 until a Smart car followed
>by a Citroen CV2 overtook me!!!!
>Cheers Nige

Hi nigel,

Its worse when you are doing 120mph and a renault 5 goes past you too. lol

One of the places where i used to live not to far from the southern borders there is a piece of motor not used until the winter for ski season. You can be doing 120 and a Merc or Bmer will zoom past you making you look like you are standing still.

mark

[sheerwater]

Forgive me if I'm wrong Mark but my experience of German roads is that if you are overtaking you pull over to an inside lane once you are passed the overtaken. The idea seems to be that you get out of the way of vehicles travelling faster which does not happen in the UK. Usually the speeds are far in excess of the UK so overtaking means checking more carefully. I havent had the experience in Germany of some Ar***** rep in a cavalier flashing constantly to overtake when it can clearly be seen that the traffic in front of me is still blocking the way.
I also believe that on some stretches trucks are not allowed to overtake
which allows faster traffic to clear. Unlike the UK where 2 trucks both regultated to 56mph sit for miles blocking the road.
As for the renault 5 at 120 at least you can race tune them. Who the hell race tunes a citroen 2CV and if so how!!!!
Cheers Nige

[markas]

Hi ya,

Yes i agree about the lorries in both lanes, going up hill when you notice they are nattering to each other as their limiters have kicked in. On the rep point i'm on about of idiots which we have many.

Using the hardshoulder for future releaf of the congestion i don't agree with. Another idea they have in the US i like is a centre Meridian, but we just don't have the space in our country, beauteful as it is when its sunny :-)

After my mother was run down on a traffic crossing i drive with a lot more care and caution now.

There are places and times to drive quickly.

Mark

I think the rolling system is a good idea if used correctly. Ther Dutch use very strange lights for their big arrows. Rather than have the illuminated arrow and flashing lights around it they havea flashing arrow, with no other lights. YOu come around a corner and all of a sudden this big arrow appears in front of you (at night). Very safe.

As for idiots. I'll take UK idiots any time over the Dutch ones. 90mph = 1 or 2 meter gap. And they stay there, it's not just waiting for someone to move out of the way, that's simply where they drive. Nearly saw a big accident last week on the A4 between Den Haag and Amsterdam. The Skoda (pre-Volkswagen design, '96) was driving about 2 meters from the car in front, the car in front did a semi emergency stop (the only kind you get on Dutch motorways due to the gap left). The front right wheel locked, whilst the car was riding right up on the rear suspension and the car started to spin as the locked wheel was not slowing down. The brakes were released and it was a few seconds before the car was under control again (it was snaking down the motorway). Once it was under control what happened? 2 meters from the car in front. Makes you wonder what some people have between the ears....

Stu