D4204T V50 2.0 diesel starting woes, advice please!

[rmaunder]

Hi,

First post here, sorry it is long but wanted to give all relevant info. Really hope someone can help before I scrap a Volvo V50 2004 2.0TD with D4204T engine, with about 140k km on it.

Car has always had poor starting since bought few years ago. Worse in cold weather where often would need to be cranked for 10-15 seconds, blow some smoke until running. Car is in Switzerland, and it gets very bad as weather drops to -10 or less. Once warm it would restart fine, though needed slightly more cranking than other diesels we have. It drove absolutely fine, plenty of power, no lag, or other issues.

So obvious candidate was glow plugs. The coil light always went off almost instantly, though not clear if this is normal or not from various things I’ve read. I bought some replacements, then realised it wasn’t a trivial due to Volvo's helpful design. I asked a local garage to check, change them if required. The guy said he thought problem lay with ECU, not plugs, and needed to go to dealer. Took to Volvo and they came back with fault being EGR valve. In retrospect didn’t seem very believable as people blank these off without causing major starting problems?

Other things got in way so I left it for another 12 months with problem about same. Last week decided to finally try to sort it out before another winter killed battery.

As dealer had recommended EGR valve, started there and replaced this. Pig of a job due to poor design by Volvo, putting a virtually inaccessible allen bolt on bottom. Got old one off in end, and it was heavily coked up and looked like would stick. Also noticed that at some stage someone had pulled wiring plug on EGR and clipped it up (not sure if dealer or previous owner). I cleaned out the cooler tube (all the little interior tubes in end were totally blocked up with coke. I poked these with wire, and then started engine with EGR vale off to try and blow junk out rather than sending back into engine. Put in new EGR valve.

Result: Testing again on cold morning was basically same - struggle to start, no problems once warm, drove fine engine ran smoothly, plenty of power. So no better but not worse. Oh well….

Two days later my wife called me from shopping centre to say she had driven there fine, but now wouldn’t start - can imagine how popular this made me as it was ‘working’ before I played with it.. Went out, cranked endlessly. No joy. recover service came, sprayed in starter fluid to air intake, briefly tried to start then died. So likely a fuel issue, and there were some air bubbles in clear tube (not huge). I had been fiddling with filer/pipes so not impossible.

Towed to local garage again. He took 5 hours of testing, during which he checked fuel pump, replaced fuel filter etc. In end he said was issue with one of fuel pipes (not clear which), dropped tank, replaced pipe, got it running. Didn’t seem great, still had sluggish starting. Cost near 750 CHF (near 500GBP) - this is Switzerland after all. I shudder to think what official dealer would have charged.

Car was ok for one day, ran fine, then sat for few days and wouldn’t start again even after endless cranking. After reading many helpful threads on here, I looked at ‘throttle body’*. Cleaned that out (wasn’t very dirty but did seem sticky), chamfered flap. Checked it didn’t stick closed but running briefly with tube off.No joy.

(BTW Haynes manual describes this as anti-shudder valve - i.e. not a variable throttle, as ECU/injectors handle this, but binary open/closed flap that cuts of air to stop engine?)

Decided to replace the glow plugs, not in much belief would cure, but as two of four plugs came up with Meg ohm resistances so were definitely shot. Why garage and dealer both ignored this as starting point beyond me. Had to strip EGR valve again, stupid of me to not just do it all in one go!

Still no joy as expected. It still just cranks endlessly, with very occasional brief (<1 sec) stagger as if about to start before cutting again. There is quite a bit of white smoke from exhaust and smell of fuel, so seems like something is reaching cylinders.

Not really sure what to try next. Options seem like:

1. Fuel supply problem: Unlikely given that clear tube is pretty full (couple of small bubbles). Even when car ran there was always a few small bubbles in it but never seemed to cause any running problems. I’ve pulled the green clipped fuel return hose and cranked engine. Fair amount of clean looking diesel ran out into container, so fuel is getting to the first (low pressure) side of the pump at least.

2. Injector pump: Possibly the high pressure side has issues? It was checked by garage but not sure how completely. Not sure if this can be checked in any easy way as DIYer? Was thinking to take off and strip down. I did try cracking the high pressure line to the common rail. Nothing came out when engine stopped, but just after cranking, so no residual pressure. When I left cracked and cranked engine small amount came out, didn’t spray everywhere which I’d expect given very high pressure.

3. Fuel injectors: Seems unlikely more than one has suddenly failed unless somethings has fouled them all? Is it possible that total failure of one could make car impossible to start vs run badly of 3 cylinders? Replacements seem incredibly expensive (even in UK, here in CH would be eye watering). I guess a leak by test would be good next step here?

4. Some sensor. Was wondering is either fuel rail pressure sensor, or even crankshaft position sensor (clutching at straws). There are no lights from ECU (was one for while when car totally broke down) but has gone now. My thinking was that many of the sensors in engine have fallback value in ECU, so if something like mass air failed it’s unlikely to cause total starting failure, just bad running. But for position and pressure sensors if they failed…?

5. Compression: again seems very unlikely as car had been running fine once started and warm.

6. Starter motor / battery: battery was good but has been deep cycled due to all starting. Have charged several times, but might be weakened. Also have read some people having problems with starter not cranking fast enough. Doesn’t seem very likely, but possible I guess. Certainly there is some white smoke from starter after 10-15 sec cranking, but probably just getting hot and burning dirty off.

Car is pretty old and garage so expensive here that if I can’t fix / identify problem then it’s off to scrap yard. It was written off by insurance due to hail damage, so not a huge loss.

If anyone can suggest logical next thing to try before giving up would be very grateful. Leak by test on injectors seems like the obvious thing, but as I can never get it started not sure if just cranking on starter will give a meaningful result?

Thanks for reading this far!

Cheers

Rick

[JohnL]

I'm not fully conversant with this particular engine, but I will give you my thoughts and some things to try.
If you give it some easy start (ether) in the air cleaner does it then start and keep running? I would suspect either, slow cranking speed initially, or poor fuel delivery from the low pressure pump. (If its like the bigger engines it needs at least 250erpm before the injectors will fire.)
You need to get some live data, when trying to start, Fuel pressure, what does the engine temperature sender read before starting when cold, this provides info to the ECU to turn on the glow plugs.
If you attach an additional battery when starting from cold does it improve things?
You could try powering the glow plugs from a separate 12volt supply, when trying to start from cold.
By doing the above individually it will help in deciding what could be the problem,
Also get any codes read, noted, and then cleared.
What grade of oil is being used?, important when the temp drops.
Values are key here, if you get these we could then be more precise in making a diagnosis or we could just keep adding parts in the hope to cure it.
John

[Horton]

This might sound a little off the wall, but your starting issue may not be due to the engine, it may be due to a bad connection in the CEM..... It's really common on this model. Before you scrap it, just try this.
Expose the fuse box under the glovebox, disconnect all the wires, don't worry about marking them, you can't get them in the wrong order when you put them back! Remove the unit and put it on your work top. Then go a buy yourself a can of Contact Cleaner and soak the whole unit in the stuff. Leave it for a few hours or overnight and refit it. That should help!

[rmaunder]

Hi John / Horton,

Thanks for replies. To answer points:

- Yes tried jump starting from another car. It turns over better (logical as the actual battery is probably a bit shot with endless cranking). However never starts (occasional cough).

- I checked the glow plug power before replacing - got 13V on all four connections, so that doesn't seem likely to be issue. It's still warm enough here that I'd expect it to start without glow plugs.

What I have done is run a leak off test. See follow up comment below.

Rick

[rmaunder]

Hi,

Following up on above, just did a leak off test. Couple of pics attached of results, using small tubes as engine never starts.

Readings for the two runs are (as shown looking from left -> right):

#1 #2 #3 #4
5.8 8.5 6.4 10.7
4.5 7 5 10.5

The units on tubes seem bit arbitrary (I guess they are roughly ml). To fill the right tube took about 20-30 seconds cranking. The overall rate on #1 / #3 seem ok given it never started.

Clearly the rightmost (#4) looks faulty, and probably #2 too. I guess one was probably bad for a long time hence difficult starting. Now another has failed pump can never get pressure up enough to get system going?

Before I strip and replace the two any advice out there on doing this - aside from keeping everything clean? The Haynes manual says you need to replace the rigid metal fuel lines - seems excessive if it looks clean and undamaged?

Anyone have a good recommendation on price / place to supply. These are Siemens injectors, #9647247280 / DH09 42706

The best deal I found so far for reconditioned ones was German dealer in eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/www-diesel...ik-biberach-de

220 Euro per injector (with 50Euro refund for old one), so 120 GBP (170 Euro) each.

Cheers

Rick

[brickman]

Glad you found the problem.

I would try to find a Bosch service centre or commerical diesel engine centre near you, they both have the equipment to totally rebuild injectors for normally a lot less than new (even ebay prices).

It is very common that modern diesel injectors fail or are at least faulty once they get some miles on them.

If you've had one injectors 'streaming' or allowing a much larger volume of fuel into the cylinder during normal running then you could have other problems existing or about to happen. I would get a proper compression test done and if that brings up anything then get a micro camera inside the cylinder and look for signs of damage (so you don't have to remove cylinder head).

[robinoliverb]

Just a thought, check the sort of throttlebody valve thing just at the end of the intake.
they seize up, and prevent starting, and can get stuck and cause poor running. my dad's V50 is doing the same, and upon removal it was sticking, and the inlet manifold was totally caked with carbon deposits.
it would smoke when trying to start, some diesel obviously burning but not enough oxygen to fire it up. usually only does it from cold.

[rmaunder]

Hi,

Afraid still struggling with this. I spoke to diesel specialist who cast doubt on excessive leak off causing inability to start. He suggested popping cables on each injector in turn, cranking and seeing is start (logic being a faulty solenoid might stop ECU from firing other injectors). That didn't help.

So I got a OBDII module and Torque for Android app. First thing this confirmed is that when cranking the engine the fuel rail pressure goes up to 22000 psi - so that seems to confirms that the supply and pump are ok.

I then read various ECU faults - log from Torque below. Looking at these:

There are none relating to injectors - not sure if one had fault you should see any?

For the others:
P0406 / P1409 / P1412 all relate to EGR valve which as been replaced.
P0380 is the glow plugs - again replaced.
P0562 & P0625 - seem to relate to low battery/alternator voltages - which is likely given endless times battery has been discharged when cranking.

This leaves:

P0122 - Throttle position sensor. Given car used to start and respond to pedal fine, seems unlikely root cause?

P1335 - Crank position sensor. This seems like a possible cause, although would seem odd that a faulty sensor made it hard to start, but run fine if/when it did? I could test the sensor but for 20 pounds seems like most sensible thing is to replace.

Would appreciate anyones thoughts on which of these seems like a possible cause for non-starting, if there is an easy test to confirm?

Cheers
Rick

--------

Fault log report generated by Torque for Android
=================================================

Vehicle VIN: YV1MW753152065964b
Vehicle Manufacturer: Volvo
Vehicle Calibration ID: 0030771141 AA

Current Fault Log
------------------
P0406: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Sensor "A" Circuit High
P0380: Glow Plug/Heater Circuit "A"
P1335: [Chrysler] CKP Circuit
[Toyota] No Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal - Engine Running.
[Nissan] Crankshaft Position Sensor (REF)
[Lexus] CKP Sensor Circuit Malfunction During Engine Running
[Mitsubishi] Piston position sensor 1
[Dodge] CKP Circuit
[Jeep] CKP Circuit
[Seat/Audi/Volkswagen] Engine Torque Monitoring 2 Control Limint Exceeded

P1409: [Chrysler] EGR Vacuum System Leak
[Ford] EGR Vacuum Regulator circuit malfunction
[Mazda] EGR Vacuum Regulator Solenoid Circuit
[Dodge] EGR Vacuum System Leak
[Jeep] EGR Vacuum System Leak
[Seat/Audi/Volkswagen] Tank Ventilation Valve Circ. Electrical Malfunction

P1412: [Seat/Audi/Volkswagen] EGR Different.Pressure Sensor Signal too Low

P0122: Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Low Input
P0625: Unknown code - More information may be available on the web
P0562: System Voltage Low

Pending Fault Log
------------------
ECU reports no pending faults

Historic Fault Log
------------------
ECU reports no historic faults
Other discovered fault codes
(possibly pending, current or manufacturer specific)
----------------------------------------------------
P2269: Water in Fuel Condition

End of report.

[irish940d24]

I have similar starting issues with my 2.0d s40 but it's quite intermittent and temp doesent really effect it but what I've learned is this engine with Siemens management needs to turn over quite fast to start up promptly, I bought another s40 recently which had a new starter fitted and it starts up instantly and spins over almost at engine idle speed

Looking at your faults list I would try cleaning the connections on the CEM as said and maybe get a Volvo dealer or someone with VIDA to do an ECM reload if the faults are random/not corresponding to actual physical faults in the engine bay

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by rmaunder

Hi,

First post here, sorry it is long but wanted to give all relevant info. Really hope someone can help before I scrap a Volvo V50 2004 2.0TD with D4204T engine, with about 140k km on it.

Car has always had poor starting since bought few years ago. Worse in cold weather where often would need to be cranked for 10-15 seconds, blow some smoke until running. Car is in Switzerland, and it gets very bad as weather drops to -10 or less. Once warm it would restart fine, though needed slightly more cranking than other diesels we have. It drove absolutely fine, plenty of power, no lag, or other issues.

So obvious candidate was glow plugs. The coil light always went off almost instantly, though not clear if this is normal or not from various things I’ve read. I bought some replacements, then realised it wasn’t a trivial due to Volvo's helpful design. I asked a local garage to check, change them if required. The guy said he thought problem lay with ECU, not plugs, and needed to go to dealer. Took to Volvo and they came back with fault being EGR valve. In retrospect didn’t seem very believable as people blank these off without causing major starting problems?

Other things got in way so I left it for another 12 months with problem about same. Last week decided to finally try to sort it out before another winter killed battery.

As dealer had recommended EGR valve, started there and replaced this. Pig of a job due to poor design by Volvo, putting a virtually inaccessible allen bolt on bottom. Got old one off in end, and it was heavily coked up and looked like would stick. Also noticed that at some stage someone had pulled wiring plug on EGR and clipped it up (not sure if dealer or previous owner). I cleaned out the cooler tube (all the little interior tubes in end were totally blocked up with coke. I poked these with wire, and then started engine with EGR vale off to try and blow junk out rather than sending back into engine. Put in new EGR valve.

Result: Testing again on cold morning was basically same - struggle to start, no problems once warm, drove fine engine ran smoothly, plenty of power. So no better but not worse. Oh well….

Two days later my wife called me from shopping centre to say she had driven there fine, but now wouldn’t start - can imagine how popular this made me as it was ‘working’ before I played with it.. Went out, cranked endlessly. No joy. recover service came, sprayed in starter fluid to air intake, briefly tried to start then died. So likely a fuel issue, and there were some air bubbles in clear tube (not huge). I had been fiddling with filer/pipes so not impossible.

Towed to local garage again. He took 5 hours of testing, during which he checked fuel pump, replaced fuel filter etc. In end he said was issue with one of fuel pipes (not clear which), dropped tank, replaced pipe, got it running. Didn’t seem great, still had sluggish starting. Cost near 750 CHF (near 500GBP) - this is Switzerland after all. I shudder to think what official dealer would have charged.

Car was ok for one day, ran fine, then sat for few days and wouldn’t start again even after endless cranking. After reading many helpful threads on here, I looked at ‘throttle body’*. Cleaned that out (wasn’t very dirty but did seem sticky), chamfered flap. Checked it didn’t stick closed but running briefly with tube off.No joy.

(BTW Haynes manual describes this as anti-shudder valve - i.e. not a variable throttle, as ECU/injectors handle this, but binary open/closed flap that cuts of air to stop engine?)

Decided to replace the glow plugs, not in much belief would cure, but as two of four plugs came up with Meg ohm resistances so were definitely shot. Why garage and dealer both ignored this as starting point beyond me. Had to strip EGR valve again, stupid of me to not just do it all in one go!

Still no joy as expected. It still just cranks endlessly, with very occasional brief (<1 sec) stagger as if about to start before cutting again. There is quite a bit of white smoke from exhaust and smell of fuel, so seems like something is reaching cylinders.

Not really sure what to try next. Options seem like:

1. Fuel supply problem: Unlikely given that clear tube is pretty full (couple of small bubbles). Even when car ran there was always a few small bubbles in it but never seemed to cause any running problems. I’ve pulled the green clipped fuel return hose and cranked engine. Fair amount of clean looking diesel ran out into container, so fuel is getting to the first (low pressure) side of the pump at least.

2. Injector pump: Possibly the high pressure side has issues? It was checked by garage but not sure how completely. Not sure if this can be checked in any easy way as DIYer? Was thinking to take off and strip down. I did try cracking the high pressure line to the common rail. Nothing came out when engine stopped, but just after cranking, so no residual pressure. When I left cracked and cranked engine small amount came out, didn’t spray everywhere which I’d expect given very high pressure.

3. Fuel injectors: Seems unlikely more than one has suddenly failed unless somethings has fouled them all? Is it possible that total failure of one could make car impossible to start vs run badly of 3 cylinders? Replacements seem incredibly expensive (even in UK, here in CH would be eye watering). I guess a leak by test would be good next step here?

4. Some sensor. Was wondering is either fuel rail pressure sensor, or even crankshaft position sensor (clutching at straws). There are no lights from ECU (was one for while when car totally broke down) but has gone now. My thinking was that many of the sensors in engine have fallback value in ECU, so if something like mass air failed it’s unlikely to cause total starting failure, just bad running. But for position and pressure sensors if they failed…?

5. Compression: again seems very unlikely as car had been running fine once started and warm.

6. Starter motor / battery: battery was good but has been deep cycled due to all starting. Have charged several times, but might be weakened. Also have read some people having problems with starter not cranking fast enough. Doesn’t seem very likely, but possible I guess. Certainly there is some white smoke from starter after 10-15 sec cranking, but probably just getting hot and burning dirty off.

Car is pretty old and garage so expensive here that if I can’t fix / identify problem then it’s off to scrap yard. It was written off by insurance due to hail damage, so not a huge loss.

If anyone can suggest logical next thing to try before giving up would be very grateful. Leak by test on injectors seems like the obvious thing, but as I can never get it started not sure if just cranking on starter will give a meaningful result?

Thanks for reading this far!

Cheers

Rick

First of all, get the hidden fault codes read (Might need a Volvo dealer if you don't have access to the correct reader), or you will finish up changing everything guessing what the fault is.

A few wild guesses:
1/ One of the fuel filter O rings needs changing.
2/ The intake shut off valve or manifold has started to block and needs cleaning, that should be done when the EGR is cleaned. Both the EGR gasket and intake O ring will need replacing.
3/ The injector tips are gummed up and need cleaning. When the fuel filter element & O rings are changed, just fill up the housing with Liqui Moly Diesel Purge (Read the instructions about varying the idle RPM), as that's more effective than normal fuel additives.
4/ Check the battery, starter motor and earth connections are not getting hot when starting.
5/ Might need a new battery (Biggest Gen Volvo or Bosch that fits the tray and clamp).

None of the faults above will result in a hidden fault code except the battery, although it would need to be real bad to log a below min crank RPM or voltage code after a failed start.