Volvo Community Forum. The Forums of the Volvo Owners Club

Forum Rules Volvo Owners Club About VOC Volvo Gallery Links Volvo History Volvo Press
Go Back   Volvo Owners Club Forum > "Technical Topics" > 700/900 Series General

Notices

700/900 Series General Forum for the Volvo 740, 760, 780, 940, 960 & S/V90 cars

Information
  • VOC Members: There is no login facility using your VOC membership number or the details from page 3 of the club magazine. You need to register in the normal way
  • AOL Customers: Make sure you check the 'Remember me' check box otherwise the AOL system may log you out during the session. This is a known issue with AOL.
  • AOL, Yahoo and Plus.net users. Forum owners such as us are finding that AOL, Yahoo and Plus.net are blocking a lot of email generated from forums. This may mean your registration activation and other emails will not get to you, or they may appear in your spam mailbox

Thread Informations

water loss

Views : 1729

Replies : 40

Users Viewing This Thread :  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jul 18th, 2019, 11:29   #31
Ian21401
Premier Member
 

Last Online: Feb 11th, 2023 21:32
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Blyth, Northumberland
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by volvomadwoman View Post
water escapes through the header/expansion tank when it pressurises tto much but on short journeys it doesnt leak out,so looking for another 940 auto estate
I’m not a mechanic. I’ve never owned an auto. I know nothing about Dave’s fear that water may be leaking into the auto box via the cooler.
BUT:
Do I understand this correctly? Water is escaping through the header/expansion tank.
Do you actually mean the expansion tank?
Does it fill up completely with coolant then eject it through the breather pipe? You state that no escaped coolant can be seen so I suspect not so does the expansion tank now appear empty?
Did you confirm that the heater valve is on the engine side of the bulkhead?
Is the heater valve open or closed? If it’s open then coolant will be able to flow through the heater and leak away. Even if it’s closed I suggest that, as there is a leak in the heater matrix the pressurised coolant is able to enter the matrix via the return end and leak away.
I do not understand how the system is pressurising so much if the heater matrix is leaking, surely that will be preventing a build up of pressure.
I’m still thinking, access those heater hoses and isolate that heater matrix. You will ascertain the state of the heater hoses whilst doing so. Then see what happens.
If the pressure is still building then move on to a suspect head gasket and the usual checks for that.
The “how to change a heater matrix” seems very comprehensive. I agree that it appears to be a long tedious job and would consume a lot of labour hours if someone else needs to be paid to do the work, but, it’s probably still less than the cost of a replacement car, and GreenBrick has a re-cored matrix available, if it is the correct one.
Just to add to the sorry story, I once owned a Ford Cortina Mk3, 1600cc. It was fine around town and on short trips but after a couple of hours on a motorway the coolant all disappeared. The cylinder head gasket was suspect but when the head was removed it was found to be cracked. It was replaced with a good used one. The coolant still continued to disappear. The piston rings eventually gave up (blue smoke etc) so the engine was completely stripped and the block and head checked by a reputable engineering works. No faults were found. The engine was rebuilt but continued to use coolant. No idea where it was going or how. Traded the car into a dealership who wanted the registration number and the Rostyle wheels.
Sorry if I’m on the wrong track here, just trying to help.

Last edited by Ian21401; Jul 18th, 2019 at 11:52.
Ian21401 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ian21401 For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 18th, 2019, 13:04   #32
Laird Scooby
Premier Member
 
Laird Scooby's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 21:57
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lakenheath
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian21401 View Post
I’m not a mechanic. I’ve never owned an auto. I know nothing about Dave’s fear that water may be leaking into the auto box via the cooler.
BUT:
Do I understand this correctly? Water is escaping through the header/expansion tank.
Do you actually mean the expansion tank?

Just to add to the sorry story, I once owned a Ford Cortina Mk3, 1600cc. It was fine around town and on short trips but after a couple of hours on a motorway the coolant all disappeared. The cylinder head gasket was suspect but when the head was removed it was found to be cracked. It was replaced with a good used one. The coolant still continued to disappear. The piston rings eventually gave up (blue smoke etc) so the engine was completely stripped and the block and head checked by a reputable engineering works. No faults were found. The engine was rebuilt but continued to use coolant. No idea where it was going or how. Traded the car into a dealership who wanted the registration number and the Rostyle wheels.
Sorry if I’m on the wrong track here, just trying to help.
If the heat exchanger in the radiator that cools the ATF has a leak, coolant will escape from the cooling system part of the radiator into the gearbox fluid Ian. This will cause failure of the gearbox fairly quickly. Also because the cooling system is pressurised at between 16.5 -22.5psi depending on the cap on the expansion tank (or header tank if you're in the USA), it overcomes the minimal pressure of the ATF that is on its way back to the auto box sump.

Cortinas were notorious for coolant loss (among many other faults) but the heater matrix was a 10 minute job to change. Two Jubilee clips, a few self tappers, job done. Trouble was, because the heater matrix was the highest point of the system, air locks were endemic in them which in turn caused overheating and over-pressurisation of the system, resulting in coolant loss through the radiator cap. They also were susceptible to radiator blockages with all that entails.
__________________
Cheers
Dave

Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........
Laird Scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Laird Scooby For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 18th, 2019, 16:03   #33
Ian21401
Premier Member
 

Last Online: Feb 11th, 2023 21:32
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Blyth, Northumberland
Default Coolant Leaking into Auto Box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laird Scooby View Post
If the heat exchanger in the radiator that cools the ATF has a leak, coolant will escape from the cooling system part of the radiator into the gearbox fluid Ian. This will cause failure of the gearbox fairly quickly. Also because the cooling system is pressurised at between 16.5 -22.5psi depending on the cap on the expansion tank (or header tank if you're in the USA), it overcomes the minimal pressure of the ATF that is on its way back to the auto box
Would it be fair to assume that if that is the case then the ATF fluid level would rise as it was diluted by the coolant and a test of the ATF fluid would reveal contamination by the coolant?
Ian21401 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ian21401 For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 18th, 2019, 17:33   #34
Laird Scooby
Premier Member
 
Laird Scooby's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 21:57
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lakenheath
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian21401 View Post
Would it be fair to assume that if that is the case then the ATF fluid level would rise as it was diluted by the coolant and a test of the ATF fluid would reveal contamination by the coolant?
Generally yes. However, the water can be boiled off under hydraulic pressure but in the meantime will cause rough shifting. Usually it's done its damage by the time it gets boiled off though.

With the amount of coolant being lost on this one, i would expect to see a rise in the ATF level though.
__________________
Cheers
Dave

Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........
Laird Scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Laird Scooby For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 18th, 2019, 22:15   #35
Stephen Edwin
Premier Member
 

Last Online: Oct 26th, 2023 21:42
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Thurrock
Default

I am still wondering, including wondering what tests have been done.

If the water loss is from pressure and the header tank, is it concluded or observed that coolant leaves the cooling system via the pressure cap?

If so, is that over pressurisation, or normal pressure with a faulty pressure cap, or even a blanking cap instead of a pressure cap.

Inspect and test the cap?

Test the cooling system?

A correct and working cap might cure this.

Are there any other signs to implicate the head gasket? For example:
  • Mayonnaise inside the oil filler cap?
  • Persistent vapour in the exhaust?
  • Exhaust gases in the expansion tank?

Re the heater. Bypassing it would isolate it helping to focus investigations. If you do keep the car, please replace the heater hoses whatever condition they appear to be in.

Whether to keep the car depends on things about the car and the circumstances that I do not know. In my opinion generally, if the body is sound, mechanical things can usually be fixed. Well that's a starting point for considerations.

Good luck.

.
Stephen Edwin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stephen Edwin For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 24th, 2019, 00:06   #36
volvomadwoman
Member
 

Last Online: Jan 2nd, 2020 16:28
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: near london
Default

well!
the water has stopped leaking out of the expansion/header tank, its not pressurising anymore,not added coolant for over a week ! it was 33 degrees today and its been on the dog run 3x and nothing grrrrr make a liar of me,so no water to be found leaking anywhere the ground is bone dry under the car,it has been on longer journeys same thing no leaks we still check it before and after every run, there is NO MAYONANNAISE, car runs smoothly so fingers crossed and touch wood it lives to drive another day
ONLY a minor issue my lovely husband managed to break the key off in the drivers door lock,so the last bit of the key is well and truly buried, lucky we had 2 keys so we can still drive it just cant lock it which is annoying but in the meantime looking for a lock with a key so it can be changed,
thanks for all the help
volvomadwoman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to volvomadwoman For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 24th, 2019, 00:21   #37
Laird Scooby
Premier Member
 
Laird Scooby's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 21:57
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lakenheath
Default

Bad news on the key breaking in the lock! The good news is, if you can get the lock out, you shold be able to get the remains of the key out of it and not have to worry about changing the lock and having an extra key.

You can lock it, open the rear drivers side door and press the button down on the drivers door and shut the rear door.
You can unlock the passenger door, open it and lean across to open the drivers door with the internal release handle - this automatically unlocks it.

This is assuming all your locks are the same key. If it helps i can tqake some pics tomorrow of the screws that hold the lock in and give you some tips to remove/refit the drivers door lock - just done mine so it's fresh in my brain cell!

Good news on the water loss or lack of as well, may have been an air lock that was reluctant to shift perhaps.
__________________
Cheers
Dave

Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........
Laird Scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Laird Scooby For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 26th, 2019, 12:04   #38
volvomadwoman
Member
 

Last Online: Jan 2nd, 2020 16:28
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: near london
Default

appreciate the instructions on getting the lock out,not sure the key will come out as broke off at the weakest point where its skinny then flares out like a paddle, its the paddle bit left in the lock,still waiting on lakes to find a matching lock and key and just sent him a picture of the keys as he may be able to get one cut,i cant find any numbers on the keys just says 'YMOS GERMANY' not even sure they are originals for this car as it had volvo guard,which i don't think works just flashes,never heard an alarm anyway, still checking the water before and after journeys tad paranoid now.fingers crossed was just a an airlock.
volvomadwoman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to volvomadwoman For This Useful Post:
Old Jul 26th, 2019, 12:10   #39
Laird Scooby
Premier Member
 
Laird Scooby's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 21:57
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lakenheath
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by volvomadwoman View Post
appreciate the instructions on getting the lock out,not sure the key will come out as broke off at the weakest point where its skinny then flares out like a paddle, its the paddle bit left in the lock,still waiting on lakes to find a matching lock and key and just sent him a picture of the keys as he may be able to get one cut,i cant find any numbers on the keys just says 'YMOS GERMANY' not even sure they are originals for this car as it had volvo guard,which i don't think works just flashes,never heard an alarm anyway, still checking the water before and after journeys tad paranoid now.fingers crossed was just a an airlock.
I'll get some pics up later for you. Some will be "missing" from the procedure as i don't fancy taking the door card off again just yet but those would be difficult to get because of angle of dangle of camera, lighting etc but the others should give you enough of an idea. Sounds as clear as mud at the moment, all will become clear later though!
__________________
Cheers
Dave

Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........
Laird Scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 27th, 2019, 23:24   #40
Laird Scooby
Premier Member
 
Laird Scooby's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 21:57
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lakenheath
Default

Sorry for the delay! Finally, some photos! First i should point out this is on a 760 but the lock is from a 940 so there will be detail differences. These two screws on the door hold the clip in place that secures the lock :





That's the horseshoe that holds the lock to the door. The loop on the end of the lock that the short rod fits into normally points towards the rear of the door - with that in mind you can see this is a passenger door lock but you need another clue to know that.





There is a "finger" in the lock casing, one top, one bottom and the bottom bit has a wider "finger".

Once the horseshoe is loose (assuming the door card is already removed) it slides towards the front of the car to release the lock from the door. The lock can then be partially withdrawn and turned so the loop attached to it with the rod for the lock operation is down in the lock aperture. Then the rod can easily be withdrawn from the loop.



Then you can remove the lock from the door. Refitting you "Haynes it" - in other words, reversal of removal.

Meanwhile, you have a few options wonce it's out. First is you can try and get at the remians of the key now you can see more closely where it is.

Second, you can turn the lever on the end of the lock through 180 degrees so the loop (that the lock rod sits in) is now the opposite side of the lock barrel - this means you can fit it in the passenger door, do similar to the passenger lock (swap the lever/loop through 180 deg) and fit that in the drivers door, meaning you can now lock and unlock from the drivers door again.
To turn the lever/loop through 180 deg, you need to slide the E-clip (a bit like a circlip) off the end of the lock barrel, lift it off and turn it round - there are two slots and fingers so it can do this easily. Don't forget to move the return spring at the same time. Then refit the E-clip.

If you have something like a Dremel or a very steady hand, you could try drilling the end of the lock barel with a small hole, just big enough to be able to put a piece of stiff wire (paperclip straightened out is good) through and push the broken piece of key out. On some older locks, there was already a hole there making life easier for this.

If you do swap the passenger door lock with the drivers lock by doing this (assuming it's keyed the same) then once again you'll be able to lock/unlock from the drivers door without needing to carry an extra key. If you eventually get another lock, you could fit it to the passenger door and hide the key somewhere on the car where you know where it is using a neodymium magnet - emergency use only obviously unless you want to carry an extra key!

Hope i've covered what you need to know there, if not feel free to ask and i'll do my best to help!
__________________
Cheers
Dave

Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........
Laird Scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Laird Scooby For This Useful Post:
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:41.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.