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Starting problem

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Old Sep 13th, 2018, 17:11   #1
Tom in France
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Default Starting problem

A new member posting for the first time. I inherited my father-in-law's 1988 Volvo 240 sedan around 15 years ago. Its 210,000 kilometers have been relatively trouble-free. I replaced the timing belt, water pump and all of the drive belts a year ago at around 208,000 kms (the vehicle is rarely used).
This summer, the top connection on the radiator failed in a spectacular, crumbling mess, as the bakelite plastic disintegrated under the pressure of the hose clamp. I only realized that this had happened because I had stopped to ask a man working in his front yard for directions. He told me that my car had water running out of the motor. Just as I touched the key to turn it off, the motor shut off by itself. Since then, it has refused to start.
I have checked the fuses, changed the fuel relay, and I've changed the main fuel pump and filter. I know that it is getting fuel, as I have disconnected the return fuel line at the injection rail. When I crank the motor, I get fuel out of the line.
I checked the coil, and I have 1.2 Ohms primary resistance and 10,6k Ohms secondary resistance. There is what appears to be a weak spark when I remove a spark plug and ground it against the motor.
I checked the compression in the cylinders. One of the cylinders had only 75lbs. with the three others ranging from 95lbs to 120lbs. I added a teaspoon of motor oil to the cylinder with the lowest compression, and it came up to 100lbs.
I would appreciate any suggestions or advice that the forum members might be able to offer. I hope that I didn't blow the head gasket, but I didn't think to look at the temperature gauge when this happened, and I don't know how to check a blown head gasket, other than looking for foam on the engine oil cap (there is none). When the motor shut off, it was like there had been an electrical problem, as I didn't hear any signs of engine seizure or a mechanical malfunction.
I might also mention that I also checked, when the oil cap was off, and the crank is turning. So, I take that for a sign that the timing belt is still intact.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
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Old Sep 20th, 2018, 00:41   #2
honestjoe
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Hi Tom..my old bus is the same age as yours.. and as you have had no response to your plight..i thought i might put my two pence in..you said about a weak spark..I have just replaced the crank position sensor on my bullet proof 88 dl..it never ever let me down.EVER!..but might be worth investigating..best of luck hj.
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Old Sep 20th, 2018, 10:04   #3
Stephen Edwin
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Oh yes I saw this. It really needs input from people far more knowledgeable than me. I have some small thoughts.

A lot of money has been spent already on various parts. How to get a focus on what further work is most likely to help?

When a car suddenly stops and won't re-start there are usually a very few prime suspects. Low cost to moderate cost. I hope that is the case for this car.

When there is, water flowing out, and those compression testing results. This might be rather more than a head gasket.

It might be helpful if the meaning of water flowing out can be established. I find it hard to see that as a literal description by the by-stander.
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Old Sep 21st, 2018, 02:02   #4
Stephen Edwin
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Tom In France.

I think you have been online.

Could you post any clarifying or updating information please?

We might tempt more expert people to contribute?
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Old Sep 21st, 2018, 09:47   #5
Clifford Pope
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It seems obvious that the sudden gush of water was the direct cause of the engine stopping, and a collapsed plastic radiator full of pressurised water would surely fully explain the description of water running out.
(I once had a waterpump seal fail without warning. The temperature rose very rapidly, there were clouds of steam, and the entire coolant poured out in a steaming puddle)

The most common cause of immediate failure to restart after the engine has been sprayed with hot coolant is water in the electrics. Presumably the distributor cap has been dried out.

The worry is that overheating had caused more serious damage, but a sudden collapse of the radiator and loss of coolant while sitting at the side of the road wouldn't do that, suggesting either that the loss had been ongoing and that prolonged overheating had not been noticed, or that there had been some other progressive deterioration, eg poor compression, leaking head gasket, gumming piston rings, etc, and that the water incident was merely the final straw for an already-ailing engine.

I don't see why even an engine with poor compression or a failed head gasket wouldn't make at least some attempt to fire, suggesting something else has failed. When you cleaned and dried the HT wiring, you did put the leads back on the right plugs ?
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Old Sep 21st, 2018, 10:15   #6
Stephen Edwin
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Thank you Clifford.

I tend to think more of steam than gush of water from overheating but I take your point.

As for electrics getting drenched absolutely yes. I remember still when a water pump sprayed coolant to hit the fan. A Morris Minor. Drying out the electrics was quite a task.

And yes an inadvertent swapping of the HT leads or some such thing must be worth checking for.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2018, 18:09   #7
Tom in France
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Thanks to one and all who have posted about my Volvo 240 starting problem post. I was delayed in re-posting as I wanted to get some photos that would better illustrate the problem.
First thing, the radiator failure happened after only driving the car on secondary roads for less than 10 minutes. There was no steam or spraying water, and I think, having replaced the radiator, that the thermostat may not have even been open; the water loss, I believe, was limited to just the radiator. The first photo below shows the failed radiator connector point at the top of the radiator. The second photo is of the lower connection, which was OK.

[IMG]http/www.volvoforums.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=115764&stc=1&d=1537632 264[/IMG]
Thus, I don't think that any of the car's electrics were wet.

I've been trying to find the location of my vehicle's crank position sensor, but I haven't been able to locate it on the crankcase. The car is registered as a 1987, but I've often found, when purchasing parts over the years, that I need to get motor parts for a 1988 240. I would appreciate if anyone can verify whether or not my car should have a sensor, as I have read that this is a problem when the vehicle will not start. I would also like to verify if this car has a 2.0 or 2.3L engine. Is it written somewhere on the engine block?

[IMG]httpwww.volvoforums.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=115765&stc=1&d=1537632 382[/IMG]
My other main suspect is the fuel relay connector.

I replaced the relay when this sad tale began, and the fuel pumps seem to function when the engine cranks, but I find the partially melted fuel pump connector to be suspect. I don't know how, however, to test the 6 contacts where the relay connects to the connector to see if there is a short or problem somewhere.
Does anyone have thoughts about this fuel relay connector or the crank sensor? Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg corroded radiator connection.JPG (376.4 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg good radiator connection.JPG (353.3 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Fuel Relay and connector.JPG (225.8 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg Fuel relay connector.JPG (217.6 KB, 15 views)
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Old Sep 25th, 2018, 08:54   #8
honestjoe
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Hi Tom..sorry you"re still having issues..Though my bus is the same age as yours mine is a Di and is carb not fuel injected..The location of the crank position sensor is a thick black wire which is attached to the firewall and runs down the back of the engine and sits on top of the bell housing..ie clutch/gearbox.There is not a lot of room between engine and firewall but you should just be able to get your hand behind to the sensor on top..follow the wire down.This can be a pig of a job to do so might be worth ruling out the fuel pump relay first..The sort of melting to that relay could be a failing fuel pump and the extra load is melting the relay?..from my little knowledge of this system i believe you should be able to hear the pump running when turning the ignition to the on position?..I wonder if its possible to bybass the relay by bridging just to test?..i also believe that roadside recovery did this to my friends 240 just to get him home..If you would like to know how i got on changing the crank position sensor you will find it in my previous threads..all the best hj.
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Old Sep 25th, 2018, 19:07   #9
BrianH
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Another suggestion.

My 245 GL CI injection, but runs on LPG. Would not start at the Al,s Motors after back axle repairs at 670k mls. It showed weak spark, so started changing the obvious.

Would not start on LPG or petrol. Only thing we didn't look at was the amplifier I wobbled the plug and it started on LPG. A little squirt of electric cleaner. Good to go

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Old Oct 10th, 2018, 09:42   #10
Tom in France
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Default Removal of after-market alarm

The saga continues...
Since last posting, I decided to remove an after-market alarm system that I suspected might be related to my non-starting problem on a 1988 Volvo 240 GL. I disconnected the sensors and bee-hive of wires that were connected to the alarm. I'm stymied, however, by a blue wire and a brown wire that were connected to the alarm and which then passed through a grommet in the firewall. These run through a black rubber tube to the ignition coil (see photos). The brown one is connected to two blue wires that run to what appears to be a combination ignition control unit/power stage unit (I say "combination," because I have not found a separate ignition control unit on this vehicle) that is on the fender-well beside the car's battery. The blue wire is connected to two blue wires that connect to the coil's +15 terminal.
Now that I've disconnected the alarm, I have no power at the coil. I suppose that is because of these two disconnected wires (the blue and the brown wires that were connected to the alarm, and which obviously were used to disable the coil to prevent the theft of the vehicle). Even more alarming (excuse the pun), the coil's primary resistance is now 3.3 ohms (it was 1.2 ohms before) and there is zero secondary resistance (before it was 10.6k ohms). I fear that I inadvertently grounded one of the coil's terminals by touching it to the car fender while removing it from its bracket and that the coil is now kaput.
I don't know if this coil was the origin of my non-starting problem, whether it was the old alarm system, or something else altogether (the Hall sensor in the distributor, perhaps?).
Can anyone please tell me how my coil was hooked up before the alarm system was installed? I suspect that it has something to do with the wires that are connected to the blue and brown wires that were added on to connect to the alarm.
Thanks in advance.
Tom
blue-brown wires.JPG
blue-brown wires.JPG
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File Type: jpg wires & grommet.jpg (119.9 KB, 12 views)
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