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Calling CNGBiFuel !

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Old Feb 21st, 2017, 14:09   #31
Russki
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Sorry, that's must be my English, but I can't get to your point. Did you tried to read about that guy with his santa fe car? I only have chosen him because it is a 6cyl car recorded experience with successful conversion to LPG with complete DiY that google translate can do a decent translation on. The guy who did the conversion is an engineer working for Hyundai in Russia. The guy seems like he has enough income to afford a professional conversion, but he deliberately chosen the hardest (on your opinion) way to do it. Working only weekends he did full conversion of his car DiY. Google translate Google translate refers to LPG like HBO for some reason, but the point is clear. About software you need to read the second part of his writeup. Before that 4 years ago he converted his Hyundai sonata from Necam like system to the 4th generation using stag kits. That is an interesting read because he is really slow there. He slowly getting to the point why and how he decided to abandon older system and start all over again with only front kit. 4years running without any issues is an achievement and I highly recommend to read it. If you are interested into understanding why and how its can be done diy.

It seems that the hardest part of the conversion - fuel management is can be done now using software automatically(yes anyone can download it for free). I don't want to underestimate the job that ClassicSwede or others installers doing, but it seems that the only hard part left is to choose the right kit for your car that can be done only by experienced installer. Installation done diy will be still illegal as by UK law can only a certified installer convert a vehicle to alternative fuel.

In my personal opinion installing the LPG nowadays is like installing a dishwasher . Someone is capable to do it, someone not and someone is capable but don't want to get his hands wet.
Again only judging from my personal point of view installing a front kit of 4th generation LPG is easier than changing wishbones or shock absorbers.
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Old Feb 21st, 2017, 17:55   #32
CNGBiFuel
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Yes I read his post. Makes sense only if you have no system, and lots of time.
Even hten I wonder if it was really going to save him money, compared with going out and earning money in the time it took him to do it.

We are at crossed purposes: You wrote:

Quote:
Even if the bloody motor is dead it is obtuse to change it to another stepper motor even for yours 190 pounds. Because for less you can buy a set from stag that is a straight fit even for a necam vaporiser. Just unplug those injectors from distributor and put them in 4generation lpg injectors. Plug it in to the laptop (software is free) and synchronise it with the petrol injectors automatically.

All of that is written on those "moaned about" 60 pages

So, this is true then is it? If you take time and money out of it. A non-working Necam system means you'll need more than free software, a Stag set, some injectors and unplugged hoses. It'll be a lot of work, and it'll cost more than £190. Even in Russia. So why would you not just repair your Necam? None of the repairs take more than two hours. Most less. Please expalin how your solution comes cheaper?

I've never spent as much time or money to run a gas powered car, as your Sante Fe guy. I bet I've saved more money. Although I doubt it, perhaps it makes financial sense in Russia, but when you can buy whole Bifuel cars for the cost of a conversion, ( I did ) and they come up most weeks, it doesn't here. Those Bifules ahve usually got stepper motor issues and I get them running. In the last few months I've sold steppers to guys buying V70 Bifuels such that including my stepper they were on the road for under £7-900.00. Now that makes sense, good for them and good business for me!


One bloke fixed it for £40, ( a new diaphragm). Why? Because I told him how to do it. Please expalin, why would you rip a Necam off when you can fix 'em at worst for £190. Good for me, good for tehm? Not daft Russians spending god-knows-how-much time and money...

Cheap motoring is what this section is about.
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Old Feb 22nd, 2017, 14:52   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel View Post
Yes I read his post. Makes sense only if you have no system, and lots of time.
Even hten I wonder if it was really going to save him money, compared with going out and earning money in the time it took him to do it.

We are at crossed purposes: You wrote:




So, this is true then is it? If you take time and money out of it. A non-working Necam system means you'll need more than free software, a Stag set, some injectors and unplugged hoses. It'll be a lot of work, and it'll cost more than £190. Even in Russia. So why would you not just repair your Necam? None of the repairs take more than two hours. Most less. Please expalin how your solution comes cheaper?

I've never spent as much time or money to run a gas powered car, as your Sante Fe guy. I bet I've saved more money. Although I doubt it, perhaps it makes financial sense in Russia, but when you can buy whole Bifuel cars for the cost of a conversion, ( I did ) and they come up most weeks, it doesn't here. Those Bifules ahve usually got stepper motor issues and I get them running. In the last few months I've sold steppers to guys buying V70 Bifuels such that including my stepper they were on the road for under £7-900.00. Now that makes sense, good for them and good business for me!


One bloke fixed it for £40, ( a new diaphragm). Why? Because I told him how to do it. Please expalin, why would you rip a Necam off when you can fix 'em at worst for £190. Good for me, good for tehm? Not daft Russians spending god-knows-how-much time and money...

Cheap motoring is what this section is about.
I understand now what are you trying to prove. I do apologise for my stupidity and ignorance. You just want to make the point that it is absolutely impossible to fix a bifuel Volvo cheaper than your solution. Sadly that is not true in the real world. You see United Kingdom is quite conservative about alternative fuel, so the market for spares is not like somewhere else. I bet in India they sell more varieties of curry powder than they sell in England. A brief search of the polish manufacturer for LPG called STAG or Digitronic as we, russians, know them will bring you a variety of choices from all over post USSR countries with the price for any pocket. This guy sells the kit on picture for less than 200 british pound (Please use your own means of transferring currency if you like the currency code is UAH) it took me less than 30 seconds to find the whole front end for the same price as your solution. If you will subtract that tomasetto vapouriser cost it will fall even lower.
Now lets look closely to the guy who is selling it. The guy has a shop in the city of Kharkov, Ukraine. The Stag manufacturing facility is in Białystok, Poland and between them is 700 odd mile and a Ukrainian-Polish Border with import cost of 32% all together. I am under impression that the guy in Kharkiv is still making a profit selling these as I couldn't find any information if he is operating a charity. If you are worried about delivery please don't as it is 5pounds for kilo via courier service.

The holes are already in intake manifold, and they have a thread on them. I believe its about 3hours job to replace distributor with injectors, considering coffee brakes, 1.5 hour to get to that distributor (dammit!).

My stepper is working and I just replaced my necam vaporiser with KME silver that is working flawlessly. Necam vaporiser was sold to the guy in Belarus, who like you think that necam is amasing. He paid 50 quid all inclusive. I paid 64 for a new vaporiser from UK dealer. Is it worth spending 40 quid for 19 quid diaphragm? I don't know...

In the conclusion I want to ask if you're satisfied by my choice of answer?

P.S. I want to contribute to that eBay guide you wrote. It will be easier to replace distributor bracket nuts with these that will save your customers a lot of time on to getting to that damn distributor with its fragile stepper motor for cleaning etc.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2017, 10:15   #34
CNGBiFuel
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Ah, now if you really can do all of that for less cost and no more time and this can be made to add-up, with labour, or time and trouble factored, I must agree with you. If you have the know-how, and it can be done for less and no more time or effort, remove the Necam set-up. Forget steppers, forget it all.
Only your first reply appeared to show an example of a Russian going the very opposite direction, making work, as if to suggest doing the same was a workable solution and would cost less, over fixing your Necam system. I'm not married to the Necam system, it's just that fixing it is the cheapest and easiest solution for most of us. Largely because I understand it and tell others.

I also agree with you with respect to the UK being vastly conservative about these systems. We have amongst the lowest take-up rates in the world for alternative fuels, this despite because of our taxation, the very highest deisel / petrol prices. It seems to make no sense, but however much we complain about it, we like high fuel costs, we are happy with this. We are too rich. LPG is in decline here. As for CNG users, they don't really exist except for a few large corporates.

Worst of all, the one solution that has the worst environmental impact and the most range, cost and fuelling disadvantages, but sounds good for celebs to say they have, doesn't work at all. Appalling levels of efficiency and pollution compared to LPG / CNG. Yet this lousy inefficiency and pollution gets moved away from the car, so it looks good. Yet, electricity, is on the rise. The cells in the those cars have a 5 year life at best. And who will buy new cells for a car when they'll cost more than the car is worth by then? Some, but not many.
Whereas India, Iran, Pakistan, Argentina and I understand much of Eastern Europe has been running LPG / CNG for years. Because it's cheap and it works.
Yet you are more likely to find a Tesla or a Prius here than in those countries, because we don't buy any Tesla or a Prius for the reasons their owners would like to kid us. Your car or mine has zero impact on the the envronment compared to these things because your car or mine already exists, and burns cleaner than any petrol or deisel car, and doesn't leave a pile of scrap lead/ cadmium and lithium in its wake five years from now. It'll be running five years from now too if you look to it. The true enviromental impact of a Tesla or a Prius is appalling.

Only Elon Musk is heralded as a hero for selling an £80,000 car because it makes no sense except via the "'kid-us-on, 'marketing message' " it is sold under. Meanwhile, you and I will be seen as the idiots for driving cars no 'celeb' would be seen dead in.


I also like your wing-nut solution. I will add it to the ebay listing.

Good luck.
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Old Jan 30th, 2019, 14:44   #35
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I appologize for hijacking the thread by my first post but I am trying to solve the numerous issues I am having with a Necam Mega regulator on my 2004. Volvo V70 CNG Bifuel.
I had symtoms of broken gas diaphragm on my regulator:difficult cold starts,gas leaking to the engine bay through vacuum hose and bad fuel consumption. We found a 5mm tear in the diaphragm near the centre and replaced it with new membrane from repair kit from Poland. After that,I am now having buildup of gas in the cooling system.The replacement diaphragm is obviously of inferior quality and I am starting to think that it is that is th culprit to current problems.
We have not changed anything in the regulator aside from the diaphragm.

Does anyone has a Necam Mega CNG repair/dissasembly manual or photos which can share?

I am really clueless what could have caused gas in the coolant after we changed the diaphragm and put everything back as it was.

Thanks.
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Old Mar 18th, 2019, 01:17   #36
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I managed to solve the issues with my regulator however, I would like very much if someone, I am hoping Russki, would add to the subject with solutions, maybe.

There are debates on other European CNG forums about expiry dates of CNG tanks and solutions currently available for owners to keep their Bifuel Volvos running on CNG afterwards.

Volvo practically does not offer any reasonable solution but to retire the vehicle and acquire a newer one. New factory tanks which are scarcely available practically surpass by the price value of the vehicle itself.

What might be a solution is acquiring new tanks within validity date salvaged from a newer vehicle of the same generation (just delaying inevitable for a while) or getting non Volvo tanks and installing them with some interventions to rest of the factory system to make the setup work.

Does anyone has some personal experience regarding this,willing to share?


A mechanic in the local workshop who installs aftermarket CNG kits on regular vehicles suggested to me that he could change the rear end of the system (I believe he meant CNG tanks only for the ones of similar in dimension) or even better, the whole system, both the tanks and the regulator.

I like it so far how Necam Mega regulator works and I would like to keep most of the factory setup intact, that means to change tanks only.

Which are my dilemmas?

First one:

Can I replace only the tanks and keep Necam Mega CNG regulator in the front?
I read somewhere that the biggest problem is adjusting pressures from tanks to the Necam regulator and you cannot use the valves from old tanks since the screwing type of the Volvo CNG tank is not a regular one.

So, is it possible to replace old tank and keep the front end intact? If the answer is yes, are the any further adjustments needed, settings changed, etc? Are there any guidelines, pressure specs sheets available?


The second question:

If, due to incompatibility of Necam regulator with new non-Volvo tanks, it becomes is really necessary to change both rear end and the front end, is it only the Necam regulator itself or are there more parts involved?

Russki, you suggested Tommaseto AT09 as a good solution.Is there anything else needed, like ECU, injectors?

If someone has done this already, can he give some feedback on how does this new, non Volvo setup work on the vehicle regarding power, switching automatically from petrol to CNG, etc.?


Thank you very much for your answers.

Last edited by mickey21; Mar 18th, 2019 at 01:21.
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Old Mar 19th, 2019, 00:32   #37
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It should be possible to have the tanks re tested
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Old Mar 19th, 2019, 18:58   #38
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Thanks for the answer.

It is good to hear that, sounds encouraging.

However, I was told the opposite, that CNG bottles which are very high pressure vessels are supposed to be scrapped after their expiry date. LNG tanks can be re-certified,though.

Do you have any references to share,who is doing it throughout Europe?
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Old Mar 23rd, 2019, 14:13   #39
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Quote:
I was told the opposite, that CNG bottles which are very high pressure vessels are supposed to be scrapped after their expiry date. LNG tanks can be re-certified,though.
That is my understanding. Not to be confused with LPG tanks, LPG tanks are just beefed-up aerosol cans, and hold minimal pressures. 'Classic' will correct me but i think about 10-12Bar.

Automotive grade CNG cylinders have an expiry date on them, and under EU laws that's your lot. 300Bar I've had to replace mine. LNG is not for you!

Very pricey, more usually a £2500 item, I was lucky and got some via Tesco's fleet for their scrap value. Volvo won't want to know. You will source them fairl easily on Italian or Yank eBay. Moving them will be pricey.

I'm afraid these are not as welding-cylinders / Scuba stuff, you can't retest. The Germans with TUV etc, in particular, are hot on it.

You will have no issues with regulators, the two are unconnected. A tank, is a tank, is a tank.

If you are set to remove the Necam system, then you're into a Tommaseto AT12 and 'classic' will set you right on the control unit. It's the same as LPG after that. I run a LPGTECH 326 ECU and decent Keihin Orange injectors and Necam, but that's a whole new arena. LPGTECH 326, should do you.

So:

1) Tommaseto AT12
2) Keihin Orange injectors (there are far cheaper alternatives)
3) Cylinder(s) from Italian eBay
4) LPGTECH 326

That lot won't be cheap.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2019, 15:01   #40
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Search for 'bombola metano' on ebay.it
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