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B230FK Timing Belt Conundrums.

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Old Sep 10th, 2018, 10:52   #31
Laird Scooby
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Dave.

We are drifting in to mass vs force. A newton is the force to accelerate a mass of one kilogram....&c. &c.

Comparing force to force, a newton ≈ 0.22481 lbf (Wiki)

A four ounce apple? Yes please!



I don't pretend to really understand mass. Force, yes I know an irresistible force when I encounter it.

I was told the weight of an apple
aid memoir in about 1968 by a Maths lecturer. It's the only thing I really learnt in those lectures. !!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT P.S. Would I be right to say one can only experience mass by the force resulting from its presence so it is almost an abstract?


Apologies to you Joe. Where is the cambelt in this thread now?

.
Why do foreigners have to complicate things? When i was taught mass, force etc some of it was slightly different - now, having read on Wikipedia, 1N is approx 10kg in terms of gravitational pull.

The way i was taught it all those decades ago was that a Newton was also a measurement of weight, hence the Nm torque definition.

Maybe i didn't understand it correctly or maybe the teachers involved (Physics and CDT) didn't understand it so it was all learned wrongly but i passed both of those exams quite happily and then never needed to use most of what i'd learned in both in my professional life.

With lb-ft, it's simple - a weight of 1lb and a bar 1 foot long will exert a torque (turning effort) of 1 lb-ft hence the same 1lb weight on a 6 ft bar will exert 6lb-ft and a 6lb weight on a 1ft bar will also exert 6lb-ft.

The foreigners have confused torque, weight and gravitational acceleration to creat a unit that uses gravitational pull on the end of a 1 metre bar.

The sooner we get back to using the correct torque measurement of lb-ft the better!
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Old Sep 10th, 2018, 11:04   #32
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Oh Dave !!!!

Torque is force x length in any units. And weight is force.

Don't start me orf re continentals. Most of 'em are good eggs init. We also have our not welcome politicians and bureaucrats and smart alecs. It's the same the whole World over ....

The confuddling, for me, arrives with the concept of mass, which is not weight, not force.

But an apple weighs about 4 oz and that is the force or weight known as a newton.

Bramleys are good init. At a previous address I had a lovely mature Bramley tree. One neighbour became friendly when I was picking the apples.
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Old Sep 10th, 2018, 11:29   #33
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Oh Dave !!!!

Torque is force x length in any units. And weight is force.

Don't start me orf re continentals. Most of 'em are good eggs init. We also have our not welcome politicians and bureaucrats and smart alecs. It's the same the whole World over ....

The confuddling, for me, arrives with the concept of mass, which is not weight, not force.

But an apple weighs about 4 oz and that is the force or weight known as a newton.

Bramleys are good init. At a previous address I had a lovely mature Bramley tree. One neighbour became friendly when I was picking the apples.
The point i was making Stephen is that Newtons (now, not when i went to school) are defined as 1kg accelerated at the speed of gravity to create a force of momentum. While momentum comprises weight/mass it isn't weight/mass as it has another component, that of movement.

Using my previous example of a 1lb weight on the end of a 6ft bar driving a socket on the end of a fastener, regardless of whether it moves the fastener or not (let's assume for a moment it is tightened to 12lb-ft so won't move with only half that) it is still exerting a turning effort or torque of 6lb-ft.

On the subject of apples, i'd guesstimate most apples (eating) are about 3-4oz, i've known a couple of Bramleys that have tipped the scales at well over a pound (lb), not sure i've actually seen one that weighed 1kg (2.21lb) but going back to why we use the lb pound - THAT came over from Europe when we were invaded in the Middle Ages!
Short for libre (French word i believe?), we use the lb as an abbreviation. In terms of money, we use the £ which is a slightly deformed "L" and the original Pound Sterling was a pound (lb) weight of Sterling silver.

In other words, the EU in a former medieval incarnation already foisted their strange measurements on us and now they want us to change again to an even more confusing and strange set of measurements.

On a final footnote on this massive swing off-topic, big apologies Joe, i think this started when i suggested the 12v electric impact torque wrench.
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Old Sep 10th, 2018, 12:01   #34
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The point i was making Stephen is that Newtons (now, not when i went to school) are defined as 1kg accelerated at the speed of gravity to create a force of momentum. While momentum comprises weight/mass it isn't weight/mass as it has another component, that of movement.
Weight/mass? Acceleration due to gravity? Momentum? And don't forget the time of high tide at London Bridge!

Ahem. A newton is the force to accelerate a mass of 1 kg at 1 metre per second per second.

≈ 0.22481 lbf

About a quarter of a pound force. An apple.

QED.



The history of foot and pound sounds interesting....thanks.


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Old Sep 11th, 2018, 13:28   #35
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You guys are talking old school, it's all about metric now so get with the programme
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Old Sep 11th, 2018, 14:03   #36
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You guys are talking old school, it's all about metric now so get with the programme


NO!!!

First, who knows what will happen when we finally Brexit - there's a good chance the proper measurements will come back so you can once again legally buy a gallon of petrol at the pump instead of having to convert it every time.

Second, there's a high chance we'll be trading with the USA again (after 45 years!) and as they still use Imperial measurements (although some are slightly different and called "Federal") that's more of a reason to think real measurements will return.

Third, if we ever have an EMP burst, that will wipe out virtually all electronics so almost every car made after about 1980 will no longer run (and a few from before that too!) so we won't need to worry about whether it's Nm or lb/ft but if we at least know how to set lb/ft, we can fix those older cars running contact breaker ignition and carburettors!
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Old Sep 11th, 2018, 16:54   #37
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You guys are talking old school, it's all about metric now so get with the programme
Me? I use whatever system of units is apposite and proper in context.

Cushti!


EDIT: Really. One must and has to use whatever system of units is apposite. That is the programme.


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Old Sep 15th, 2018, 23:31   #38
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SAM_7111 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152293344@N05/]
I like that tool, could make a smoother version sometime ...
*strokes beard*
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