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Has the world finally gone mad?

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Old Jan 26th, 2021, 21:17   #21
Laird Scooby
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Originally Posted by JohnM 855 T5R View Post
I have been in conversation with a member on here seeking advice (as is proper, I shall keep them anonymous as it was a private chat) and who contacted this dealer with a view to possible purchase of one or other of these T-5R's. This is what he related to me...

"started negotiations on buying both cars and actually struck a tentative deal for both of them based on viewing them and being in showroom/immaculate condition as advertised. I can only say that once I started to question the said advertised condition and that I would be coming along to view the cars with a fellow Volvo 850 enthusiast (he's a mechanic on this forum who knows/works on 850/V70s), that things started to go cold on the deal. Needless to say he replied back saying that he had now decided not to sell but keep them as they will be worth £20k and £27k in the Spring!
The chap was trying to sell the cars to me without viewing and paying for them prior to delivery/collection, even quoting that 90% of his sales were conducted that way....he further quoted.."trust is everything on BOTH parts..."

Now is that a little suspicious or what? I don't have any personal knowledge of the dealer in question but, based upon this, clearly they didn't want the cars viewed and appraised before sale (or worse, is it some kind of scam??)
Needless to say, I (or any other right minded person) would never buy a car under those terms.

Regards
John
This reminds me of a scam about 20 years ago on ebay concerning a Datsun Skyline. It was advertised with a BIN of £2750 with a 20% deposit paid by bank transfer within 24 hours of committing to buy.

The photos portrayed it as an immaculate example, low mileage, usual faults fixed (layshaft bearings became noisy, alternators failed - usually just brushes and camshafts could wear unexpectedly) full service history etc. Viewing wasn't offered, just hit the BIN button.
There was also a clause in the "Ts & Cs" the seller put on the listing that if contact wasn't made by phone within 24 hours it would be relisted and the deposit kept to defray relisting and other costs.

While many of you won't know this car, those that did and wanted one would have been prepared to commit to buying on the evidence provided. However, it turned out to be a scam as 24 hours and 1 minute from someone hitting the BIN button, it was always relisted.
A couple of years later i learned that the car in question had been written off a few months before the ebay listings and the photos had come from the previous owner. This was before the days you could check the tax status, MoT history etc online.

Very similar general circumstances!
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Old Jan 26th, 2021, 22:30   #22
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The seller is currently looking for a Bentley Continental Drophead so doesn't appear to have cashflow issues.
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Old Jan 27th, 2021, 00:20   #23
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The seller is currently looking for a Bentley Continental Drophead so doesn't appear to have cashflow issues.
Cashflow problems or not, he's almost certainly got some kind of special crystal ball and a tame financier!
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 01:22   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM 855 T5R View Post
Hi, you have only looked at the figures for the T-5R saloon manual.

All T-5R's are as follows (it's not possible to determine the colours)

Saloon Manual 16 Taxed + 20 SORN
Saloon Auto 10 Taxed + 7 SORN
Estate Manual 38 Taxed + 53 SORN
Estate Auto 40 Taxed + 37 SORN

That makes 221 T-5R's of all types in existence out of a total of 440 originally brought into the UK. Some of that 221 will be imports from Japan but even so, a remarkable amount have survived considering its 25 to 26 years on! Just shows, people have always thought them worth preserving.
If you look at just estates, 168 are in existence out of an original 322 so the percentages are similar to the saloons. Gul Estates accounted for just 79 out of the original 322 estates. I suspect that Guls have faired better in terms of preservation, so maybe 45 to 50 Gul estates in total (manual and auto) are still kicking around either taxed or SORN'ed.

For Tim to have 2 in his street is remarkable.

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John
Hi John,

I'm not quite sure how accurate the numbers from 'howmanyleft' are as I know quite a few T-5R's were incorrectly registered by the DVLA as R's, 850's etc. Over the years I've seen quite a few green T-5R's being broken for spares, as at one time they were only fetching £1k+, whereas with the yellow ones it's the opposite - cars that would normally be scrapped were made roadworthy again.
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 02:02   #25
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The classic car dealers seem to know their market well when it comes to pricing these cars, although I'm sure there will be room to negotiate. Gul estates have been selling for £15-£20k for the last couple of years but only the very best examples. I don't think the two for sale are quite as good, however it doesn't take much for these cars to look the part. Finding a genuine relatively low mileage gul manual estate is a rarity and with little competition it's the seller who has the upper hand unfortunately. The cheaper of the two was originally an auto and it does look to be a good one. If a mint 60k yellow manual estate were to appear for sale, I could see a well respected dealer getting £25k+ for it now.
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 09:40   #26
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These cars were a little more expensive than T5s when new and were bought by people who liked driving. It is highly unlikely that any have mileages under 100,000, as only one of two would have been left in a barn or garage for decades by someone who wouldn't have wanted to drive them.

A sure sign of a dodgy seller is a blanked out number plate so you cannot check MoT history. Usually it's because the car's MoT has expired, and the last one had a list of advisories
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 12:48   #27
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Originally Posted by XC90Mk1 View Post
As someone who tentatively looks for 740 and 960s I can tell you there are lots of high priced vehicles like this out there as they are listed and stay listed in perpetuity! Those vehicles will not sell for anything like that.

I should expect them to be listed for 6 weeks, be removed then be about in 6 months.

How some of these traders have the cash follow to acquire Volvos like this and hold for months amazes me.

One, advertising on car and classics HSBA fleet of 740, 960 and such like all in amazing low milage and owners but month in month out his stock never sells lol!
I'm sure you're right about the 740s and 960s. The cars highlighted here are a different kettle of fish though and not really comparable in terms of marketability.
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 13:17   #28
JohnM 855 T5R
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Ok, There has been a lot of speculation in this thread as to T-5R values.

I guess it's time to fully reveal my own case. I bought my gul 855 T-5R auto last August (2020) for £8500. It was originally advertised at £14K.

It had 172K miles and 15 owners but was bodily totally immaculate (and I mean immaculate) as was the interior except for a tired drivers seat and steering wheel (both need retrimmimg).
The dealer (a genuine Volvo one who had bought it for himself) had a comprehensive file of bills and history. That, plus its MOT history enabled me to work out a number of things before I bought it.

1) Half the owners kept it for less than a year
2) It's only done 25K miles in the last 11 years.
3) It appears to have been off road for 6 years of its life including 3 at the dealer who never got round to doing anything with it
4) In its last 10K miles before I bought it, a total of £9300 was spent on the car to bring the mechanicals, electrics and suspension up to scratch, including £2400 by the dealer (internal cost not retail cost).

I did a deep inspection on the car which showed it still needed some work on various items, much of which was just normal wear and tear or age related stuff. I put together a list of work I felt needed doing and negotiated with the dealer. Seeing as I was clearly an 850 enthusiast, the dealer sold it to me at cost (i.e. his purchase price plus the internal prep and repair work they had done in the Volvo workshop)

I've undertaken the following (you'll probably have seen this in another thread)

Aircon re-gassed.

All 3 main engine mounts replaced.

Lower transmission torque bar replaced.

Front & Rear discs and pads replaced with genuine Volvo parts

Deep service - Oil and Air Filters replaced, Oil change - Castrol Edge 10W/40, Distributor Cap replaced, Rotor Arm Replaced, Spark Plugs Replaced, Magnecor leads fitted, Main Fuel Filter Replaced, Rear Wiper blade & Arm replaced, Front Wiper Blades replaced along with new drivers side wiper arm

Turbo Recirculating Valve blanking plate removed and replaced with new Forge piston type TRV - standard settings

All turbo pipes replaced with Do88 silicone along with new silicone vac lines throughout.

Gearbox Leak from dipstick tube and dipstick sump eliminated by Leek Transmissions in Leek, Staffordshire

Cam cover lifted, proper anaerobic sealant applied to cure oil seepage, cams lifted and inspection of journals - all ok, 4 new cam seals, new timing belt, idler and tensioner, all by D & A autos, Witney, Oxfordshire

New Turbo Control Valve

New rear engine mounting plate and top bush

Passenger interior temp sensor replaced

Fuel filler flap hinge replaced
The work was done by my stepson and myself except where indicated.

Total costs incurred (labour and parts) come to just around £1800.
So, including the cost of the car, it stands me £10,300 in total for a gul 855 that will stand up to any in the country (once I've had the seat and steering wheel retrimmed - about another £550).

I'd call that all a result, especially given that £9300 was spent in the prior 10,000 miles!!!!!!

John
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 16:37   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM 855 T5R View Post
Ok, There has been a lot of speculation in this thread as to T-5R values.

I guess it's time to fully reveal my own case. I bought my gul 855 T-5R auto last August (2020) for £8500. It was originally advertised at £14K.

It had 172K miles and 15 owners but was bodily totally immaculate (and I mean immaculate) as was the interior except for a tired drivers seat and steering wheel (both need retrimmimg).
The dealer (a genuine Volvo one who had bought it for himself) had a comprehensive file of bills and history. That, plus its MOT history enabled me to work out a number of things before I bought it.

1) Half the owners kept it for less than a year
2) It's only done 25K miles in the last 11 years.
3) It appears to have been off road for 6 years of its life including 3 at the dealer who never got round to doing anything with it
4) In its last 10K miles before I bought it, a total of £9300 was spent on the car to bring the mechanicals, electrics and suspension up to scratch, including £2400 by the dealer (internal cost not retail cost).

I did a deep inspection on the car which showed it still needed some work on various items, much of which was just normal wear and tear or age related stuff. I put together a list of work I felt needed doing and negotiated with the dealer. Seeing as I was clearly an 850 enthusiast, the dealer sold it to me at cost (i.e. his purchase price plus the internal prep and repair work they had done in the Volvo workshop)

I've undertaken the following (you'll probably have seen this in another thread)

Aircon re-gassed.

All 3 main engine mounts replaced.

Lower transmission torque bar replaced.

Front & Rear discs and pads replaced with genuine Volvo parts

Deep service - Oil and Air Filters replaced, Oil change - Castrol Edge 10W/40, Distributor Cap replaced, Rotor Arm Replaced, Spark Plugs Replaced, Magnecor leads fitted, Main Fuel Filter Replaced, Rear Wiper blade & Arm replaced, Front Wiper Blades replaced along with new drivers side wiper arm

Turbo Recirculating Valve blanking plate removed and replaced with new Forge piston type TRV - standard settings

All turbo pipes replaced with Do88 silicone along with new silicone vac lines throughout.

Gearbox Leak from dipstick tube and dipstick sump eliminated by Leek Transmissions in Leek, Staffordshire

Cam cover lifted, proper anaerobic sealant applied to cure oil seepage, cams lifted and inspection of journals - all ok, 4 new cam seals, new timing belt, idler and tensioner, all by D & A autos, Witney, Oxfordshire

New Turbo Control Valve

New rear engine mounting plate and top bush

Passenger interior temp sensor replaced

Fuel filler flap hinge replaced
The work was done by my stepson and myself except where indicated.

Total costs incurred (labour and parts) come to just around £1800.
So, including the cost of the car, it stands me £10,300 in total for a gul 855 that will stand up to any in the country (once I've had the seat and steering wheel retrimmed - about another £550).

I'd call that all a result, especially given that £9300 was spent in the prior 10,000 miles!!!!!!

John
That sounds like a canny piece of car-buying there, John — well done. I won't say (out of embarrassment) how much I paid for my Gul 855, but the process was the exact opposite — I got completely seduced and took leave of my senses and even though I spotted most of its shortcomings, I still handed over the asking price!

But, it's coming together and is at D&A having the remaining mechanical issues sorted, leaving only a small rust spot on the tailgate and a lack of rear spoiler to rectify.

Its history is quite different — bought from new by a doctor who owned it and maintained it at Volvo main dealers until passing it to his son in 2016, who was less fastidious and eventually passed to a sketchy dealer in the midlands, who ignored it until I came along. Neither they or the son bothered registering it, so I'm the second registered keeper. It's currently on 130K but increasing as it's getting driven a lot

While I'm heartened by these potentially high values, it's very hard to determine without seeing any of the cars and how mine would stack up in comparison, but reassuringly, D&A reckon it's in good shape.
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Old Jan 28th, 2021, 17:53   #30
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Originally Posted by Timmilne View Post
That sounds like a canny piece of car-buying there, John — well done. I won't say (out of embarrassment) how much I paid for my Gul 855, but the process was the exact opposite — I got completely seduced and took leave of my senses and even though I spotted most of its shortcomings, I still handed over the asking price!

But, it's coming together and is at D&A having the remaining mechanical issues sorted, leaving only a small rust spot on the tailgate and a lack of rear spoiler to rectify.

Its history is quite different — bought from new by a doctor who owned it and maintained it at Volvo main dealers until passing it to his son in 2016, who was less fastidious and eventually passed to a sketchy dealer in the midlands, who ignored it until I came along. Neither they or the son bothered registering it, so I'm the second registered keeper. It's currently on 130K but increasing as it's getting driven a lot

While I'm heartened by these potentially high values, it's very hard to determine without seeing any of the cars and how mine would stack up in comparison, but reassuringly, D&A reckon it's in good shape.
Well Tim, we have all been seduced by a car at some point in our lives, me included. It took me nearly 3 years to find the "right" one for me. From what you've said, the history on yours is actually pretty good. For myself, I've never cared a bit about how many owners a car has had - to me it's utterly irrelevant and I don't understand why people get concerned about multi-owner cars. It what's sitting right in front of you when you view that matters and as long as you can reasonably check the history and maintenance then all you have to think about is...

Is it bodily sound, no rust, no past accident damage and paint intact. If all is good there, that's critical. Quite simply, bodywork is where real big money can be spent!

As far as mechanicals, suspension and steering go, that's down to maintenance history, a damned thorough inspection (preferably on a lift), checking the operation of everything and reading all the fault codes.
As long as the gearbox and engine are sound, most stuff is readily fixable without a second mortgage. I knew from all the bills that all the suspension, steering etc. and much more had been done less than 10K miles before and visually, all looked perfect underneath. I costed out what needed to be done before I bought it and came up with £2800 as a maximum including the re-trimming work. We have run well within budget.
I must confess, I was taken aback by the benevolence of the dealer when we came to a price! It seemed that he was way more concerned about it going to a good home rather than making any profit.

Out of interest, what are D & A doing on the car? Regarding your rust spot, try going to your local Chips Away franchise (my local one has done all sorts of ding, dent and rust spot work for me in the past). You might find that you'll get a very reasonable quote for an invisible repair. Regarding your missing rear spoiler, you may not be aware that the spoiler was not standard on the T-5R Estate - it was an option (though most specified it I think).

John
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Past : 96 855 T5 CD ruby red, 98 C70GT T5 coupe Saffron, 04 C70GT T5 convertible Navy
Present : 95 855 T5R Gul Yellow
08 C30SE Lux T5 Polestar
11 C70 Solstice T5 Polestar
19 XC40 T5 R-Design Polestar
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