What's the problem with electric cars?

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by GMcL

Those numbers are in their concentrate form, measured in the exhaust, they are diluted once out in the wild. Of course vehicles are one of many polluters, they are infinitely cleaner than 50 years ago. I walked to school past buses and trucks belching out the black stuff moving off from standstill.

Telling someone to break the law to prove your point doesn't help the argument. Try licking the plug you put into your car for 5 minutes is just as ridiculous.

In what way was I asking someone to break the law? additionally the argument here is that everyone is exposed to exhaust fumes and other pollutants with no choice of the matter. If someone wants to lick a cable that is their choice.

[GMcL]

Having the engine idle for an hour with no one in the car. You can't be in the car and sitting with your nose in the exhaust pipe at the same time.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

Euro 5 isnt as great as you may think, and due to the amount of NOx being emited would knock you out within about 20 minutes. Euro 5 standards for NOx emissions are 0.18g/km and Euro 6 reduces that down to 0.08g/km.

Most studies base their levels on ppm, which 0.08g equates to approx 80ppm. Transfering g/km to a sensible unit of measurement for exposure is tricky, as g/km for exhaust emissions depends on multiple factors with RPM and ambient temperature being the biggest factor with cars.

exposure above 150ppm for 30 minutes to an hour cuases fatal pulmonary edema. 150ppm equates to 0.15 grams. So you can see with the figures that it wouldnt be long with Euro 5 to cause some fatal issues. Euro 6 taking longer, but still fatal.

Taking it back to my argument of the impact on children and other low level people/animals such as dogs. walking along a road to School for example, taking 30 minutes, twice a day, 5 times a week with all maners of vehicles ranging in quality standards, and you can understand how NOx, plus all the others such as Carbon monoxide, Hydro carbons, Particulate matter can all have an impact.

Add this to the other examples of built up areas restricting air flow, overland and underground trains, planes, and other appliances producing emissions it creates a harmful atmosphere.

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment in your post, you're obfuscating with statistics that have no relation to each other.

If you talk about particulates in ppm (parts per million) then that is their concentration - not their quantity (or mass). Refering to them in g (grams) is their mass.

When considering the impact to health whether through direct toxicity or aggrevation of a medical condition such as asthma, it's the concentration (ppm) that matters.

To say 0.08g equates 80ppm without specifying the volume of air to which that mass has been dispersed into and the particle size is meaningless, it's like saying adding a kilogram sand into a bucket will raise the level of sand in that bucket by 5cm. You can only say that if you also know the density of the sand and the volume in the bucket.

How come we didn't all die in the post war era when we all had coal fires and shops, offices, factories, hospitals and schools all had coal boilers?

[Kev0607]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment in your post, you're obfuscating with statistics that have no relation to each other.

If you talk about particulates in ppm (parts per million) then that is their concentration - not their quantity (or mass). Refering to them in g (grams) is their mass.

When considering the impact to health whether through direct toxicity or aggrevation of a medical condition such as asthma, it's the concentration (ppm) that matters.

To say 0.08g equates 80ppm without specifying the volume of air to which that mass has been dispersed into and the particle size is meaningless, it's like saying adding a kilogram sand into a bucket will raise the level of sand in that bucket by 5cm. You can only say that if you also know the density of the sand and the volume in the bucket.

How come we didn't all die in the post war era when we all had coal fires and shops, offices, factories, hospitals and schools all had coal boilers?

That's why the pollution is so bad on the London underground. Its not fumes, as the trains are electric. Its the brake dust from the brakes and the rails that the trains move on.

According to TFL, little is known about the health issues that this dust can cause. I'm not a Scientist or a medical expert, but I don't think it would be good. Silica dust for example isn't good, I don't think brake dust would be either.

In saying this, above ground where the pollution is actually lower than the underground, the vast majority of people are driving "compliant vehicles" because of ULEZ zones to lower emissions (and ultimately PM's)... PM's has gone up above ground since the expansion of ULEZ. Then there's those that got rid of their cars completely and now rely on public transport like the tube. Guess what? In doing so, the air they're breathing is actually dirtier!

+ YouTube Video

[Wagon Sailor]

In our village, we heat with coal and we burn bonfires. Few of us complain about motor vehicle pollutants. Those who do are newcomers who commute to London and use the Underground. It's a different smell, isn't it? Must be worse, surely?

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Whippy

Well, with particulates all filtered out and NOX taken care of there's not a lot coming out of a modern car.

I think the rules here in Straya aren't as strict as there, but I know stuff like a recent Audi or BMW diseasal gerlytruk is pretty stinky if you get stuck in the exhaust flow. The coffee-shop around the corner here near home has perpendicular parking, the occasional diseasal-vehicle operator backs in, and someone in a very-recent BMW x-something was backing-in this morning & it was as stinky as normal. Diseasal people are always reversing in, it's like they don't know how stinky they are!

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Forg

I think the rules here in Straya aren't as strict as there, but I know stuff like a recent Audi or BMW diseasal gerlytruk is pretty stinky if you get stuck in the exhaust flow. The coffee-shop around the corner here near home has perpendicular parking, the occasional diseasal-vehicle operator backs in, and someone in a very-recent BMW x-something was backing-in this morning & it was as stinky as normal. Diseasal people are always reversing in, it's like they don't know how stinky they are!

The exhuast odor from modern petrol and diesel cars is artificial - it's a mix of all sorts of half broken down things due to the catalyst, and it changes as the engine and cat warm up.

Everytime I get on my Massey 135 I'm reminded of what diesel engines smell of, and modern diesels smell nothing like.

I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing - but it is a thing.

Who remembers when the first petrol cars with catalysts used to smell like rotten eggs when worked hard?

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Wagon Sailor

In our village, we heat with coal and we burn bonfires. Few of us complain about motor vehicle pollutants. Those who do are newcomers who commute to London and use the Underground. It's a different smell, isn't it? Must be worse, surely?

Indeed.... we live in a village, and very occasionally we get the odd new townie who tries to lecture us about our wood burning stoves and how the selfish tractor drivers are slowing them down whilst they go about making next years food.... and then it gets really funny about now when they start muck spreading in the fields!

[Whippy]

The smell from a combine used to take me back, loved it. Doesn't smell the same now. Same as when I used to go fishing, the early morning smell of diesel and sea water is so evocative. That's probably gone now as well. Bastards.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Whippy

The smell from a combine used to take me back, loved it. Doesn't smell the same now. Same as when I used to go fishing, the early morning smell of diesel and sea water is so evocative. That's probably gone now as well. Bastards.

My favorite is 2 stroke.... was walking with the wife down a country lane last summer on a perfectly still day... some old motor bike farted past and the smell - countryside and 2T - was glorious. That was in the days when you were tuning carburettors and you could smell if it was too rich.