Amazon: Led

[DOGSTAR]

I was reading an article in pratical classics where they had changed over from conventional filament to LED on a triumph TR6, changing everything from headlights to interior lighting and dash warning lights.
Has anyone done this on a Amazon or the like?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by DOGSTAR

I was reading an article in pratical classics where they had changed over from conventional filament to LED on a triumph TR6, changing everything from headlights to interior lighting and dash warning lights.
Has anyone done this on a Amazon or the like?

I changed the headlamps to LEDs on a 240, they were very bright indeed, quite an improvement I think (see photo).

I use LEDs for the side lamps on my Amazon (mostly because I had the bulbs anyway). They are brighter and the light is much whiter (which I think is safer):

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showp...postcount=1045

I’m not sure an Amazon would be fast enough to justify much brighter headlamps, so I have not bothered changing them so far.

I’m not sure I’d bother changing the interior lights - the cost might be considerable and the gains would be infinitesimal.

[DOGSTAR]

Originally Posted by Othen

I changed the headlamps to LEDs on a 240, they were very bright indeed, quite an improvement I think (see photo).

I use LEDs for the side lamps on my Amazon (mostly because I had the bulbs anyway). They are brighter and the light is much whiter (which I think is safer):

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showp...postcount=1045

I’m not sure an Amazon would be fast enough to justify much brighter headlamps, so I have not bothered changing them so far.

I’m not sure I’d bother changing the interior lights - the cost might be considerable and the gains would be infinitesimal.

Thanks for comments, practical classics mentioned it was illegal for vehicles to have before a ceratin date but that has now changed, asides the brightness factor there is of course the longevity and also the fact that they draw less current thus putting less load on the alternator, that has to be offset by cost but i thin kit woul dbe a good upgrade, i do know you can get upgraded headlights which have a better light from brookhoue but that i believe is halogen so they are current hungry.
I shall continue to have a look.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by DOGSTAR

Thanks for comments, practical classics mentioned it was illegal for vehicles to have before a ceratin date but that has now changed, asides the brightness factor there is of course the longevity and also the fact that they draw less current thus putting less load on the alternator, that has to be offset by cost but i thin kit woul dbe a good upgrade, i do know you can get upgraded headlights which have a better light from brookhoue but that i believe is halogen so they are current hungry.
I shall continue to have a look.

Pre- 1986 cars (and all motorcycles) are exempt from not being allowed to use LED headlamps, this thread gives the story and has a link to the MoT guidance:

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showp...postcount=3683

… so all Amazons are fine.

I had jumped to the conclusion that you were already using halogen headlamps for your Amazon - my apology for that. You would need some halogen conversion headlamps first because you won’t find any LED bulbs that fit the originals, H4 or H7 seem to be the most common. These are pretty cheap and trivial to fit. Halogen bulbs produce much more light than the originals, and of course use exactly the same current (a 60w bulb uses 60w, it doesn’t matter whether it is halogen or incandescent - Watts are still Watts). LED units will use much less power (typically less than 10w) but produce much more light, far less heat and the light is much whiter.

It would be a no brainier to convert your Amazon to halogen headlamps and try them because you would have to do that in order to later fit LEDs anyway. I’d suggest trying the halogen bulbs for a while, they will be much better than you have now and won’t use any more current. You may well be satisfied with them, and they are a big improvement over the originals.

[142 Guy]

If you already have an alternator (Bosch 35 amp or larger) then the current load associated with H4 bulbs is not going to be an issue. I am a fan of adding external relays to switch the headlights which provides a shorter electrical path between the battery and the headlight (less voltage drop / brighter lights) and reduces the load on the headlight switch. Switching to LED bulbs drops the headlight current significantly and probably negates the benefits associated with relay switched headlights. In order to get a proper beam pattern you will need to switch to an H4 lens assembly (Hella / Cibie / ...) to accept the H4 LED replacement. If you can get the correct lenses and good LED bulbs this may be a worthwhile conversion - if you are going to make use of it with a lot of night driving.

For the headlights, LEDs may have some advantage. For the other lights I remain underwhelmed. High lumen white LEDs are not white (i.e. not broad spectrum). White LEDs are actually a high power blue LED combined with some phosphor (that yellow stuff that you see in the center of the LED). The phosphor absorbs blue light and re emits it as yellow light. Your eye / brain is tricked into seeing the combination of blue and yellow as white. The problem is that there is no red light in the yellow / blue mix and when you put it behind a red filter (the tail light / brake light lens) the performance in terms of lumens can be underwhelming. The yellow turn signal is less affected; but, you still do not get the advertised lumens. If you search hard, you can find some true red and yellow higher lumen LEDs that will work; but, tend to be rather expensive. However, these tend to be as bright, not necessarily brighter than the standard incandescents.

If you are thinking about changing the dash warning lights to LEDs, do not change the charge indicator light for an alternator to a LED. The charge indicator light forms part of the field flashing circuit for the alternator. A LED will not flow enough current to successfully flash the alternator which will leave you with a non functioning alternator. You can bodge around this by installing a 100 ohm resistor in parallel with the LED which should provide the required flashing current to the alternator; but, why bother.

[samaron]

Interesting read. I assumed it would in general be illegal to change exterior lights to LED throughout European countries.

Here in Norway, the rules specify specific wattage and candela values that bulbs are allowed to have.
Asking the local traffic authorities about this, I were told that LED bulbs are not approved for road use due to a rule that says the reflectors need to have a bulb it is approved for. In other words, if it is made for halogen or incandescent bulbs, it is a no go.
I were told I'm not even allowed to upgrade to halogen bulbs in the front, due to they have wattage ratings above what is allowed. 45/40 watt in this case, most halogen are 60/55 watt.

Seems the UK is a bit more reasonable with the exterior lighting on older cars.

[DOGSTAR]

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

If you already have an alternator (Bosch 35 amp or larger) then the current load associated with H4 bulbs is not going to be an issue. I am a fan of adding external relays to switch the headlights which provides a shorter electrical path between the battery and the headlight (less voltage drop / brighter lights) and reduces the load on the headlight switch. Switching to LED bulbs drops the headlight current significantly and probably negates the benefits associated with relay switched headlights. In order to get a proper beam pattern you will need to switch to an H4 lens assembly (Hella / Cibie / ...) to accept the H4 LED replacement. If you can get the correct lenses and good LED bulbs this may be a worthwhile conversion - if you are going to make use of it with a lot of night driving.

For the headlights, LEDs may have some advantage. For the other lights I remain underwhelmed. High lumen white LEDs are not white (i.e. not broad spectrum). White LEDs are actually a high power blue LED combined with some phosphor (that yellow stuff that you see in the center of the LED). The phosphor absorbs blue light and re emits it as yellow light. Your eye / brain is tricked into seeing the combination of blue and yellow as white. The problem is that there is no red light in the yellow / blue mix and when you put it behind a red filter (the tail light / brake light lens) the performance in terms of lumens can be underwhelming. The yellow turn signal is less affected; but, you still do not get the advertised lumens. If you search hard, you can find some true red and yellow higher lumen LEDs that will work; but, tend to be rather expensive. However, these tend to be as bright, not necessarily brighter than the standard incandescents.

If you are thinking about changing the dash warning lights to LEDs, do not change the charge indicator light for an alternator to a LED. The charge indicator light forms part of the field flashing circuit for the alternator. A LED will not flow enough current to successfully flash the alternator which will leave you with a non functioning alternator. You can bodge around this by installing a 100 ohm resistor in parallel with the LED which should provide the required flashing current to the alternator; but, why bother.

Thank you all for your wealth of information.
I currently run the sealed headlights so would need to change the lenses and then fit the appropriate lamp, however i believe the beam is different from traditional and halogen so how do you approach that, again i know brookhouse do a upgraded lamp with a different refraction in the lense however would not go to the exspense of getting those only to find a led type would not provide the correct beam/angle.
Re the dash lights and warning lamps, i had considered this as firstly the dash lights on my Vovlo are dimmable, something that a lot of LED's cannot accomadate, and again the alternator lamp as you mention works by gaining a feed from the regulator which monitors current draw thus going out if sufficient current is being made and getting brighter the less current being produced ( I think).
From a perspective of ligth type warm white and daylight white, the true white is very difficult to achieve and to be honest i would probably go for a softer light in the cabin because of this. I have been looking at a site called classiccarled (does anyone know if this is a good source?)and have sent a mail requesting further information, which i will share on here if appropriate.

Thanks again everyone for your support and further input more than welcome.

[142 Guy]

You raise a similar issue to what Samaron raises about the bulb being matched for the reflector. Incandescent bulbs (halogen being incandescent) have a long filament so the light source is linear. LEDs tend to be point source emitters. For headlights, the reflector has to be designed for the bulb because the filament in a non halogen versus halogen bulb are aligned differently. In the early days of LEDs, the bodge to get the lumens up was to add a whole bunch of point emitter LEDs which kind of sprayed light in every direction. Put that bulb into an H4 headlight lens and you ended up with light not going where you wanted it.

LED bulb design has come a long way and if you look at the modern H4 specific replacement LEDs you will generally see that they have the LEDs aligned in a linear strip and the correct high / low separation thus emulating the original H4 filament arrangement. This is an example. Some are probably better than others
https://www.auxito.com/products/9003...xoCjMIQAvD_BwE

So, if you switch to an E code H4 headlight lens assembly meant for H4 halogen bulbs you can probably successfully switch that to an H4 LED bulb in that reflector and be happy with the result. A good H4 equivalent LED bulb will probably meet the intent / spirit of any regulation. Whether it will meet the letter of the regulation is a totally separate problem. Regulations can be like a fly trapped in amber. It may have been drafted at a time when wattage or bulb number was a suitable guideline for performance. Technology has made wattage and / or bulb number a no longer reliable guide. If your MOT inspector gets hung up on a LED bulb you could insert the halogen bulb for inspection and change back to the LED after inspection.

Something to note about the H4 LEDs. All the ones that I have seen have significant heat sinks or little cooling fans in the base. So they need some air flow for cooling and if the area at the back of the headlights is prone to moisture and dirt this may not be a happy place for good heat transfer. Get some dirt in the fans and I have to expect that the fans may pack it in long before the actual LED fails.

I think the reflector shape issue is probably more significant for the tail lights. I have not checked in the last 5 years because I lost interest in this; but, the 1157 / 1034 / xxxx LED replacement bulbs did not have LED arrangements that came anywhere near matching the filament alignment in the traditional incandescent bulbs. So, the LED bulbs might have had lots of lumens; but, it did not necessarily match up with the reflector in the housing so the lumens were not necessarily useful lumens.

You are correct that LEDs are not dimmable by conventional voltage reduction. LEDs transition from being on to barely on to completely off. The transition from completely off to completely on is about 0.2 - 0.3 volts. You can reduce the light level by pulse width modulation of the LED, effectively turning the LED completely on or off quickly and reducing the completely on time to dim the bulb. Some more expensive LEDs have something called a voltage controlled oscillator in them which measures the applied voltage and then pulse width modulates the LED based upon the applied voltage. This allows the LED to respond to reduced voltage more like a conventional filament bulb.

[DOGSTAR]

Any thoughts on the feedback recieved today below?

Links to specified parts

Asa

To answer your specific questions:

1. We build most of our LEDs to be a like for like replacement.
2. Festoons come in different lengths so we would need to know the total length and wattage of yours. The options are 30, 36, 39 and 42mm.
3. We offer many different options for the BAY15D.
4. Our dash LEDs are dimmable but this will depend on the voltage range and condition of your rheostat. These start lighting dimly at around 9 volts and reach full brightness at 11v. If you are not seeing a dimming effect, you may need to add a resistor across the circuit to make up the difference in load between the LEDs and incandescent lamps. This being said, many customers ask this question and then do not use the dimmer at all as the brightness of the LEDs is a comfortable level. The rheostat can just be bridged if required.
Our recommendations are below with hyperlinks to the products on our website. If you click on the relevant link, you will be taken to the individual item on the website where you will be able to see the full details, pricing and be able to order.

Head light - https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...0c3ba838&_ss=r

Front Side light Light bulb 12V Ba15s 5W Volvo 965828 Cool White or Warm White https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/sea...prefix%5D=last

Front indicator Light bulb 12V BA15s 21W Volvo 965826 Amber https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...s-ba15s-glb382

Rear brake/Rear side light B966335 21/5w Bay15d Standard https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...positive-earth
or Extra Bright Red https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...-glb380-p21-5w
Reverse Light bulb 12V BA15s 21W Volvo 965826 Cool White https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...2013ac89&_ss=r or Warm White https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...2013ac89&_ss=r
Rear indicator Light bulb 12V BA15s 21W Volvo 965826 Amber https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...s-ba15s-glb382
Interior light 277715 either 5w or 10w festoon type - length required
Under dash light awaiting details
Dash lights Light bulb 12V BA9s 2W Volvo Dashboardverl. PV Ama 182055 Various Colours https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...arious-colours
Oil light Bulb 12V 2w BA9S - Do not use LED
Ignition/amp light Bulb 12V 2w BA9S - Do not use LED
Number plate 12v 5 watt festoon size? - length required
You will also need to change your flasher relay to our electronic version to use LEDs for indicators. Yours is likely to be either a two pin https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...facdcce6&_ss=r or three pin unit.https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pro...-x-l-p-2-3-pin

[Clan]

Originally Posted by DOGSTAR

Thanks for comments, practical classics mentioned it was illegal for vehicles to have before a ceratin date but that has now changed, asides the brightness factor there is of course the longevity and also the fact that they draw less current thus putting less load on the alternator, that has to be offset by cost but i thin kit woul dbe a good upgrade, i do know you can get upgraded headlights which have a better light from brookhoue but that i believe is halogen so they are current hungry.
I shall continue to have a look.

LED headlamp bulbs in a standard reflector are illegal after 1986 , a new law in recent years. you can buy fully approved LED headamps complete with special reflectors.
Ive been there done all that some years ago but after a while you will find LEDs fail just as often as normal bulbs if not more often.. The damp or the poor quality usually puts an end to them .